The 2003 war in Iraq - does anybody still fully support it?

[billvon 2,991]

> Please explain how we have tied any aspect of this war to Christianity.

We haven't; they have. Just as you've tied the enemy to Islam. When the people killing you are all christians, and the newspapers are carrying stories about how the war is against "islamic aggression" - you start thinking that there's a religious component.

[Beerlight 0]

I didn't support the invasion, but I do say the coalition needs to stay until?? well, here a post from CNN.com today:

"An Iraqi Interior Ministry official said Friday that 22 unidentified bodies were found in Baghdad on Thursday. The latest deaths bring May's total for the Iraqi capital to 547 bodies -- all are thought to be victims of sectarian violence."-----


all of those responsible need to be captured and removed.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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"That all pretty much amounts to nothing as far as why you attacked Afghanistan. "

It wasnt me that attacked Afghanistan it was NATo forces, Im not even a member of any armed forces, let alone the NATo armed forces that attacked Afghanistan. The reason for the attack on Afghanistan was simple, the US was attacked by terrorists who were in alliance with the Afghan government, terrorists who had declared war on the USA and were in allaince with the ruling government of Afghanistan.So NATO deployed troops to remove that government from power and capture the terroisst who were bent on destroying the Western way of life and replacing it with an Islamic theocracy.

Wrong, the US needed to flex muscle on the international stage and picked just about the only repressive Islamic country that it didn’t (recently) give million in weapons to.

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What would be the point of wasting time showing the Taliban the evidence against BIn Laden when they categorically stated they would not hand him over under circumstances?

They offered several times to try him in court and also delegates of the Taliban were willing to negotiate through Pakistan, negotiate as in provide evidence and all that other crazy diplomatic stuff that can happen when you don’t bomb a country in under 30 days.

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Ill remind you of OBl himself says

Remind us all you like Osama isn’t Afghanistan.

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So you can fantasise all you like about the nature of the enemy, that they are simply trying to stop Americas bully boy tactics and imperialism, but its a fantasy none the less.

I haven’t even mentioned the “enemy” and that is obviously one of the problems you have with discussion, reading what people say.

In fact I do believe I have mentioned that there is a small section of Jihadists that target the west but the Taliban, the rulers of Afghanistan, were not concerned with that.

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They have stated clear as day what their motivation is, it is for all of us to accept an Islamic theocracy.They are prepared to kill as many innocent people as it takes to get what they want.

Do you absorb propaganda through an IV straight from the fox network? None of them have the power to install Islamic theocracies across the world, this isn’t Nazi Germany you need to relax. But innocent people, well so far Osama is at about 3000+ an African embassy or two and meanwhile the US is what? tipping half a million? Yea case pretty much closed on the innocent life debate.

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This is an enemy we need to fight. Or should we just sit back and wait for the next attrocity ?I doubt if even a few nuclear bomnbs going off in the West would be enough for you to see the reality of this.

I doubt you have ever looked passed a television with your lack of understanding about Islamic western aimed jihad and in particular the ridiculous amount of power you attribute to it.

[vortexring 0]

You and me mate, should meet up for at least a pint an an arguement.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Guru312 0]

Ooops! After posting this I searched on "Blackwater" and realize that there a number of threads where the company is mentioned.

Never the less, if you have interest in the wars check out the book. I found it captivating and scary as hell.

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....you start thinking that there's a religious component.

I just finished a book called "Blackwater" which deals with mercenary army units in general but Blackwater USA specifically.

If correct, the book shows a *very* close correlation between the war and evangelical Christian fanatics.

Anyone who has read or posted here in Speakers Corner about the Afghan or Iraq war needs to read the book. The connections between Christian fundamentalism in the US and the wars are quite evident.

Check it out: "Blackwater" sub title 'The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army' by Jeremy Scahill

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[akarunway 1]

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I didn't support the invasion, but I do say the coalition needs to stay until?? well, here a post from CNN.com today:

"An Iraqi Interior Ministry official said Friday that 22 unidentified bodies were found in Baghdad on Thursday. The latest deaths bring May's total for the Iraqi capital to 547 bodies -- all are thought to be victims of sectarian violence."-----


all of those responsible need to be captured and removed.

Explain to me again why this is the USAs business.We need to get out of being the world police. Can you say EMPIRE BUILDING? And we all know what happens to EMPIRES.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Beerlight 0]

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I didn't support the invasion, but I do say the coalition needs to stay until?? well, here a post from CNN.com today:

"An Iraqi Interior Ministry official said Friday that 22 unidentified bodies were found in Baghdad on Thursday. The latest deaths bring May's total for the Iraqi capital to 547 bodies -- all are thought to be victims of sectarian violence."-----


all of those responsible need to be captured and removed.

Explain to me again why this is the USAs business.We need to get out of being the world police. Can you say EMPIRE BUILDING? And we all know what happens to EMPIRES.

nope, sorry I can't explain it, if I knew I would've posted that... I hope the rest of the world is educated enough to realize it's not the entire US that's running this thing... I would say that a very large %, well over 80% (don't ask me for a reference, i don't have one just personal opinion) do not want this war.

again, all i wish to do is to be able to raise a family in peace......if someone wishes harm on me and my family, then I'll protect them at ALL cost.......

[cloudseeker2001 0]

I am amazed at how many people voted to have never supported the war............Where are all the War-Mongers who talked so much trash at the start of this action?

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Amazon 7]

Like so many of the rePUBICans.. they just want to APPEAR to be winners.... and will jump on any bandwagon . Now that their fearless leader has shown his true colors they do not want to share the stench.. so they turn into deniers....Its a complete lack of Integrity....just like so many of the rePUBICans have been shown to be lacking the morality they held out as their personal credo.

[Royd 0]

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Like so many of the rePUBICans.. they just want to APPEAR to be winners.... and will jump on any bandwagon .

Do we need to go back and look at Shillary's record on supporting the war? Integrity?

She must be a member of the hypocrat party.

[Amazon 7]

Why yes we do...

Many of them voted for something far differant than what your LIAR in CHEIF did..

Rememb er that part of it???

They did not vote for WAR... most voted for the use if force IF neccessary... far different thing than what the fucking NEO CONS wanted....to bad none of them are wiling to put THEIR asses on the line.. in the past or certainly now...WARMONGERING WAR PROFITEERING ASSHOLES who are willing to send others off when they were too fucking chicken to do the same themselves( Cheney and all the rest of the administration) are the lowest form of human life imaginable

[kallend 2,027]

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Like so many of the rePUBICans.. they just want to APPEAR to be winners.... and will jump on any bandwagon .

Do we need to go back and look at Shillary's record on supporting the war? Integrity?

She must be a member of the hypocrat party.

A familiar whine from Bush apologists.

BUT

According to the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report, the Bush administration classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress. The senators and representatives were fed only the cherry-picked intelligence that Bushco wanted them to hear.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Royd 0]

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According to the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report, the Bush administration classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress. The senators and representatives were fed only the cherry-picked intelligence that Bushco wanted them to hear.

So, back then they were voting a position that would put them in the best politcal light, but now, they have seen the light and are voting their consience? Still hypocritical.

If tomorrow, everything fell together politically, and started to show serious improvment, they'd all be back on the other side of the fence.

[narcimund 0]

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According to the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report, the Bush administration classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress. The senators and representatives were fed only the cherry-picked intelligence that Bushco wanted them to hear.

So, back then they were voting a position that would put them in the best politcal light, but now they have seen the light and are voting their consience? Still hypocritical.

I don't think you read the paragraph you're quoting.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Royd 0]

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According to the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report, the Bush administration classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress. The senators and representatives were fed only the cherry-picked intelligence that Bushco wanted them to hear.

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So, back then they were voting a position that would put them in the best politcal light, but now they have seen the light and are voting their consience? Still hypocritical.

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I don't think you read the paragraph you're quoting.

Funny that the Dems look like a sieve when it comes to leaking intelligence that always seems to give the enemy an advantage, but they couldn't come up with the info about wmd's on their own. Oh, I know. Pelosi didn't have the ability to talk to Sadaam in person.

[narcimund 0]

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I don't think you read the paragraph you're quoting.

Funny that the Dems look like a sieve when it comes to leaking intelligence that always seems to give the enemy an advantage, but they couldn't come up with the info about wmd's on their own. Oh, I know. Pelosi didn't have the ability to talk to Sadaam in person.

I STILL don't think you've read it. Certainly at least neither this rant nor your previous one is related to the point made in the quoted text.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[philh 0]

"Wrong, the US needed to flex muscle on the international stage and picked just about the only repressive Islamic country that it didn’t (recently) give million in weapons to. "

Did it give millions in weapons to Syria, Iran, Libya the Plaestianian Authority? No it didnt, Afghanistan was by strange co incidence the country that happened to be hosting the terrorists that had declared war on the West. Somoneone who perhaps was more informed of the situation would know that many in the idiot Bush administration wanted to go after Iraq straight away and were not conrcnered with Afghanistan. They were persuaded by their miltary and security advisors that this was nuts as it was clear the terrorist organisation that attacked them was based in Afghanistan.

"They offered several times to try him in court and also delegates of the Taliban were willing to negotiate through Pakistan, negotiate as in provide evidence and all that other crazy diplomatic stuff that can happen when you don’t bomb a country in under 30 days. "

I have prodivded you with the quotes by the Taliban that said quite clearly they would not give him up under any circumstances, that is why offers to try him were not taken seriously and quite rightly so. Furthermore do you really feel Taliban Islamic courts give fair trials? Let me remind you the Taliban punished those that didnt march "death to America", so you really think there would have been a fair trial and not a delaying tactic?

I Agree OBl is not Afghanistan but I have provided you the evidence of the effective fusion of the Al queada and the TAliban and you have chosen to ignore it , thats your decision but people who live in the real world may chose the opposite.

"I haven’t even mentioned the “enemy” and that is obviously one of the problems you have with discussion, reading what people say.

"In fact I do believe I have mentioned that there is a small section of Jihadists that target the west but the Taliban, the rulers of Afghanistan, were not concerned with that. "

Why do you need to mention "the enemy" for me to acknoledge that we have one?
Do you agree or not agree that Islamic jihadists especially AQ are our enemies or not?
Yet again I point to the evidence that I have already shown you that support that proposition that AQ and the The Taliban were "joined at the hip".

"Do you absorb propaganda through an IV straight from the fox network? None of them have the power to install Islamic theocracies across the world, this isn’t Nazi Germany you need to relax. "

Thanks for the personal insult .Just for your guiide I dont live in the USA and so dont watch the Fox network, I very much enjoyed the book "Lies and the Lying Liars Whoe Tell Them" by Al Franken which was a very funny critique of it though. As to the substance of your argument - that Aq are not likely to install Islamic governments around the world. Well, I cant predict the future. Few people predicted in 1932 that within ten years the Nazis would rule almost the whole of Europe. Few people predcited in the mid 1980's that USSR would not exist within 10 years.few people precicted in the 1970's that China would embrace an enterpirse culture. I cant predict the future and neither can you. The important point is that Aq have stated a world wide imbarce of their style of Islam as their motivation and we know they are keen to kill as many innocent civilians as they can to acheive it . Whether they succeed or not in their goals is beside the point.
"well so far Osama is at about 3000+ an African embassy or two and meanwhile the US is what? tipping half a million?"
I think you are the one swalling the proaganda now. Whilst the inavsion of Iraq is something we agree was unjustified. It would be crazy to attribute all the deaths there to the US, which is the implication of your above comment. Perhaps you might want to consider who it is, that is targetting innocent civilians with the bombs in crowded markets, attacking shi ites as they prey etc Thats Aq mate and Iranian factions seem to be doing something simialr. Thats not to impy that US is blameless in Iraq either but I have never been anything but critical of the US in Iraq and so we are agreed on that. But if you imply that Aq has no blame in the thousands that have died in Iraq then you are seriously misguided individual.

"I doubt you have ever looked passed a television with your lack of understanding about Islamic western aimed jihad and in particular the ridiculous amount of power you attribute to it. "
Actaully I hardly ever watch tv, but yet again thanks for the insult. If you read my posts you will see I dont attirbute any particular power to the jihadists. I have not assumed they are about to install Islmic theocracies around the world, I have merely pointed out that is their motivation and they have no qualms in targetting as many innocent civilians as they can in their attempts. That is why they pose a significant threat, that is why we have to fight them, what would you do? Nothing?

[Royd 0]

I don't think you read the paragraph you're quoting.

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Funny that the Dems look like a sieve when it comes to leaking intelligence that always seems to give the enemy an advantage, but they couldn't come up with the info about wmd's on their own. Oh, I know. Pelosi didn't have the ability to talk to Sadaam in person.

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I STILL don't think you've read it. Certainly at least neither this rant nor your previous one is related to the point made in the quoted text.

I'll paraphrase it for you. The Dems were duped into voting for the war because intelligence was cherry picked in order to present the view that the Repubs wanted to present.

All but a few legislators jumped on the bandwagon to go to war. Now that it is no longer expedient to hold that position, they have now climbed over the fence.
These people simply do not know the meaning of personal integrity.

Joe Lieberman [D] Conn. is the only Dem that comes to mind who actually understands the concept of sticking by your guns, at the cost of the derision and alienation of his party.

He grasps the reality that the enemy is not contained within any given borders, and we may very well be taking the fight to them in a number of countries over a period of several years.

[kallend 2,027]

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I don't think you read the paragraph you're quoting.

Funny that the Dems look like a sieve when it comes to leaking intelligence that always seems to give the enemy an advantage, but they couldn't come up with the info about wmd's on their own. Oh, I know. Pelosi didn't have the ability to talk to Sadaam in person.

I STILL don't think you've read it. Certainly at least neither this rant nor your previous one is related to the point made in the quoted text.

Of course he doesn't get it. He chooses not to get it.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Erroll 80]

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The Dems were duped into voting for the war because intelligence was cherry picked in order to present the view that the Repubs wanted to present.

Just as a matter of interest from across the waters, how does the CNN article below fit in with the above statement?

From CNN:
"Records: Senators who OK'd war didn't read key report"

Hillary Clinton, John McCain and most others in Congress didn't read document

Newspaper: Six senators, a few House members logged as reading report

Link

[NCclimber 0]

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According to the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report, the Bush administration classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress. The senators and representatives were fed only the cherry-picked intelligence that Bushco wanted them to hear.

Where SPECIFICALLY on the page you linked, are your claims backed up?

[kallend 2,027]

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According to the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report, the Bush administration classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress. The senators and representatives were fed only the cherry-picked intelligence that Bushco wanted them to hear.

Where SPECIFICALLY on the page you linked, are your claims backed up?

You can download the entire report for yourself from that page.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

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According to the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report, the Bush administration classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress. The senators and representatives were fed only the cherry-picked intelligence that Bushco wanted them to hear.

Where SPECIFICALLY on the page you linked, are your claims backed up?

You can download the entire report for yourself from that page.

Riiight

Somewhere in that 229 page report there might be something to back up your claim.

SSDD

[billvon 2,991]

>all of those responsible need to be captured and removed.

A good view on this:
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My name is Donald Hudson Jr. I have been serving our country’s military actively for the last three years. I am currently deployed to Baghdad on Forward Operating Base Loyalty, where I have been for the last four and a half months.

I came here as part of the first wave of this so called "troop surge", but so far it has effectively done nothing to quell insurgent violence. I have seen the rise in violence between the Sunni and Shiite. This country is in the middle of a civil war that has been on going since the seventh century.

Why are we here when this country still to date does not want us here? Why does our president’s personal agenda consume him so much, that he can not pay attention to what is really going on here?

. . .

I would just like to know what is the true reason we are here? This country poses no threat to our own. So why must we waste the lives of good men on a country that does not give a damn about itself? Most of my friends here share my views, but do not have the courage to say anything.
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[kallend 2,027]

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According to the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report, the Bush administration classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress. The senators and representatives were fed only the cherry-picked intelligence that Bushco wanted them to hear.

Where SPECIFICALLY on the page you linked, are your claims backed up?

You can download the entire report for yourself from that page.

Riiight

Somewhere in that 229 page report there might be something to back up your claim.

Correct. You can find out for yourself what intelligence was classsified, and who did (or did not) get to read it and you won't have to believe me.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.