The 2003 war in Iraq - does anybody still fully support it?

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you won't have to believe me.

Based our interactions here, I rarely believe you.

I still consider your claim about Colin Powell attempting to coverup the My Lai massacre a fine piece of fiction.

[billvon 2,991]

>Somewhere in that 229 page report there might be something to back up your claim.

From The Italian Letter by Peter Eiser and Knut Royce:

(They are referring to Alan Foley, the head of the CIA's Weapons Intelligence Non-Proliferation and Arms Control Center.)

"There were strong indications that Foley all along was toeing a line he did not believe. Several days after Bush's State of the Union speech, Foley briefed student officers at the National Defense University at Fort McNair in Washington, DC. After the briefing, Melvin Goodman, who had retired from the CIA and was then on the university's faculty, brought Foley into the secure communications area of the Fort McNair compound. Goodman thanked Foley for addressing the students and asked him what weapons of mass destruction he believed would be found after the invasion. "Not much, if anything," Goodman recalled that Foley responded. Foley declined to be interviewed for this book.

. . .

One day in December 2002, Foley called his senior production managers to his office. He had a clear message for the men and women who controlled the output of the center's analysts: "If the president wants to go to war, our job is to find the intelligence to allow him to do so." The directive was not quite an order to cook the books, but it was a strong suggestion that cherry-picking and slanting not only would be tolerated, but might even be rewarded."

[billvon 2,991]

From Pretext for War by James Bamford:

(They are talking about the CIA's response to 9/11)

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Within a few months, for many the morale once again began to drop through the floor as they began getting pressure to come up with Saddam Hussein's fingerprints on 9/11 and Al Qaeda.

One of those who felt the pressure was a DO case officer who spent years running agents overseas, but who had been reassigned to the unit charged with finding weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq . . .

According to the official, the group never found any indications of WMD in Iraq. "Where I was working, I never saw anything—no one else there did either," the person said.

Nevertheless, there was a great deal of pressure to find a reason to go to war with Iraq. And the pressure was not just subtle; it was blatant. At one point in January 2003, the person's boss called a meeting and gave them their marching orders. "And he said, 'You know what—if Bush wants to go to war, it's your job to give him a reason to do so' . . . He said it at the weekly office meeting. And I just remember saying, 'This is something that the American public, if they ever knew, would be outraged' . . .He said it to about fifty people. And it's funny because everyone still talks about that.
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That's all very damning, Bill. But is doesn't prove Kallend's claim:

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According to the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report, the Bush administration classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress. The senators and representatives were fed only the cherry-picked intelligence that Bushco wanted them to hear.

I'm still waiting to read about what the Senate Intelligence Committee claimed to be classified and withheld.

[Amazon 7]

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I still consider your claim about Colin Powell attempting to coverup the My Lai massacre a fine piece of fiction

OOOOOPS Stepped in that one ya did....

http://www.usvetdsp.com/story13.htm


As an Army officer, Powell's superiors considered him a consummate "team player." They could count on Powell to haul their water despite any contradictory feelings he may have had. Powell's blind loyalty was demonstrated during a second tour in Vietnam (1968-1969), where as deputy assistant chief of staff for operations G-3 at Americal Division headquarters in Chu Lai, he was asked to handle a potentially embarrassing letter a young soldier had written to Gen. Creighton Abrams, commander of all U.S. forces in Vietnam.

The soldier had written about rumors of a massacre that Americal Division soldiers had committed in the hamlet of My Lai 4 in South Vietnam. Although he did not mention My Lai in the letter, the soldier complained that Americal soldiers were indiscriminately killing Vietnamese civilians. Such acts, the young soldier warned, "are carried on at entire unit levels and thereby acquire the aspect of sanctioned policy."

Several days after he received a copy of the letter, Powell sent a memo to his superior, the adjutant general, making the outrageous claim that the young soldier had not given enough specifics upon which to base an inquiry. The purposely blind Powell said the soldier's charges were false except for "isolated instances." He wrote that "relations between American soldiers and the Vietnamese are excellent." Powell's damage control efforts soon proved fruitless and the My Lai massacre burst onto the world stage like an atomic explosion, severely damaging the U.S. war effort in Vietnam. On the orders of Lt. William Calley, soldiers from the U.S. Army Americal Division had indeed indiscriminantly gunned down an entire village of men, women and children.

Although Powell's attempt to cover up the massacre was unsuccessful, he had at least proven his willingness to do what was necessary to please his bosses. For his two tours of duty in Vietnam, Powell, who was never exposed to serious combat, was awarded the Purple Heart for a minor foot wound he received after stepping on a "punji stick." He was later awarded a Bronze Star for heroism and the Soldiers Medal for pulling two men free from a non-combat related helicopter crash.


Ahhh there is that fine bouquet of bullshit coming from the right again.

[billvon 2,991]

>I'm still waiting to read about what the Senate Intelligence
>Committee claimed to be classified and withheld.

Are you really asking Kallend to show you classified information that was withheld? The whole point is that it's classified. A few reports on what was withheld:

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Report: Bush Had More Prewar Intelligence Than Congress

By Dafna Linzer
Friday, December 16, 2005

A congressional report made public yesterday concluded that President Bush and his inner circle had access to more intelligence and reviewed more sensitive material than what was shared with Congress when it gave Bush the authority to wage war against Iraq.

Democrats said the 14-page report contradicts Bush's contention that lawmakers saw all the evidence before U.S. troops invaded in March 2003, stating that the president and a small number of advisers "have access to a far greater volume of intelligence and to more sensitive intelligence information."

The report does not cite examples of intelligence Bush reviewed that differed from what Congress saw. If such information is available, the report's authors do not have access to it. The Bush administration has routinely denied Congress access to documents, saying it would have a chilling effect on deliberations. The report, however, concludes that the Bush administration has been more restrictive than its predecessors in sharing intelligence with Congress.
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Panel Condemns Iraq Prewar Intelligence
Senate Report Faults 2002 Estimate Sent To Hill, Accuses the CIA of 'Group-Think'

By Dana Priest and Dafna Linzer
Saturday, July 10, 2004

The U.S. intelligence community gave lawmakers debating whether to wage war on Iraq a deeply flawed and exaggerated assessment of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction, according to the results of a year-long, bipartisan Senate investigation released yesterday.


The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence said either the intelligence community "overstated" the evidence that Iraq possessed chemical and biological weapons and was actively reconstituting its nuclear program, or that the claims were "not supported by the underlying intelligence."
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Full text: Conclusions of Senate's Iraq report
Report on the prewar intelligence assessments

(Portions of the conclusions were blacked out, by the committee, prior to public release.)
SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE UNITED STATES SENATEREPORT ON THE U.S. INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY'S PREWAR INTELLIGENCE ASSESSMENTS ON IRAQ

CONCLUSIONS

OVERALL CONCLUSIONS - WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION

Conclusion 1. Most of the major key judgments in the Intelligence Community's October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE), Iraq's Continuing Programs for Weapons of Mass Destruction, either overstated, or were not supported by, the underlying intelligence reporting. A series of failures, particularly in analytic trade craft, led to the mischaracterization of the intelligence.

Conclusion 2. The Intelligence Community did not accurately or adequately explain to policymakers the uncertainties behind the judgments in the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate.

Conclusion 7. The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), in several significant instances, abused its unique position in the Intelligence Community, particularly in terms of information sharing, to the detriment of the Intelligence Community's prewar analysis concerning Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

[kallend 2,027]

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That's all very damning, Bill. But is doesn't prove Kallend's claim:

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According to the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report, the Bush administration classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress. The senators and representatives were fed only the cherry-picked intelligence that Bushco wanted them to hear.

I'm still waiting to read about what the Senate Intelligence Committee claimed to be classified and withheld.

You could always try reading the report.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Are you really asking Kallend to show you classified information that was withheld? The whole point is that it's classified. A few reports on what was withheld.

Oh boy. Semantics. I guess none of the information that was classified in 2002 has since been de-classified.

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I still consider your claim about Colin Powell attempting to coverup the My Lai massacre a fine piece of fiction

OOOOOPS Stepped in that one ya did....

http://www.usvetdsp.com/story13.htmAhhh there is that fine bouquet of bullshit coming from the right again.

What a lovely piece of extremism, playing a bit loose with the facts.

Does that website paint anyone of prominence in a favorable light. From what I saw, they treat everyone with equal hostility.

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That's all very damning, Bill. But is doesn't prove Kallend's claim:

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According to the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report, the Bush administration classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress. The senators and representatives were fed only the cherry-picked intelligence that Bushco wanted them to hear.

I'm still waiting to read about what the Senate Intelligence Committee claimed to be classified and withheld.

You could always try reading the report.

On the off chance that your claims are true? Nice try.

I did read a few articles on it. None mentioned the Bush administration "classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress"

[billvon 2,991]

>Oh boy. Semantics.

So you are ACTUALLY claiming that since Kallend cannot show you any classified information, he doesn't know what he's talking about? And that surely they would have declassified anything that would have incriminated them?

Here's one for you. Post a piece of classified information on pre-war intelligence that you think SHOULD be classified for reasons of national security. If you can't, I guess you'll have to admit you don't know what you're talking about.

[kallend 2,027]

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That's all very damning, Bill. But is doesn't prove Kallend's claim:

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According to the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report, the Bush administration classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress. The senators and representatives were fed only the cherry-picked intelligence that Bushco wanted them to hear.

I'm still waiting to read about what the Senate Intelligence Committee claimed to be classified and withheld.

You could always try reading the report.

On the off chance that your claims are true? Nice try.

I did read a few articles on it. None mentioned the Bush administration "classified and withheld the intelligence unfavorable to its position from the Congress"

Read the report - it's just possible that even you can learn something.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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I still consider your claim about Colin Powell attempting to coverup the My Lai massacre a fine piece of fiction

OOOOOPS Stepped in that one ya did....

http://www.usvetdsp.com/story13.htmAhhh there is that fine bouquet of bullshit coming from the right again.

What a lovely piece of extremism, playing a bit loose with the facts.

.

And this from someone who condones Cheney's story about Atta in Prague.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

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What a lovely piece of extremism, playing a bit loose with the facts.

Does that website paint anyone of prominence in a favorable light. From what I saw, they treat everyone with equal hostility.

typical of your strances.. rather than seeing the facts.. Apologist central is set in motion and attacks the source and the poster.. yet again.. I expected nothing less..

The FACT is... he is what he is.... a long record of being a yes man for political gain.. stepping over far more qualified superiors because of his Right Wing connections with your favorite NEO-CONS.... they made him.. used him.. and therw him away when he stopped being their YES MAN..

Typically disgusting

[kallend 2,027]

Looks like May 2007 is going to end up the 3rd deadliest month for US forces in Iraq.

The best support the troops can have is to get them out of there.

This war has been a blunder of the first order since day one.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,991]

>Looks like May 2007 is going to end up the 3rd deadliest month for US forces in Iraq.

Remember when "The Surge" was going to turn the tide in the war? That quickly became "well, of course there are more casualties - we're bringing the fight to them, really beating them down etc etc." And now it looks like "the surge" will be more like "the permanent increase" - Petraeus is saying that they will be there another year at minimum.

Let's hope we don't see more of this sort of "victory" in the future.

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What a lovely piece of extremism, playing a bit loose with the facts.

Does that website paint anyone of prominence in a favorable light. From what I saw, they treat everyone with equal hostility.

typical of your strances.. rather than seeing the facts..

The sentence "The soldier had written about rumors of a massacre that Americal Division soldiers had committed in the hamlet of My Lai 4 in South Vietnam." said plenty about how this guy was presenting the facts.

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Apologist central is set in motion and attacks the source and the poster.. yet again.. I expected nothing less..

Lovely combo of rhetoric and PA.

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The FACT is... he is what he is.... a long record of being a yes man for political gain.. stepping over far more qualified superiors because of his Right Wing connections with your favorite NEO-CONS.... they made him.. used him.. and therw him away when he stopped being their YES MAN. Typically disgusting

I don't doubt that, but those points do nothing to prove he attempted to coverup the My Lai Massacre. Here's the bottom line on this historical footnote. We have no proof Powell even knew about the massacre. It's kind of hard to cover something up that you're unaware of.

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>Oh boy. Semantics.

So you are ACTUALLY claiming that since Kallend cannot show you any classified information, he doesn't know what he's talking about? And that surely they would have declassified anything that would have incriminated them?

Here's one for you. Post a piece of classified information on pre-war intelligence that you think SHOULD be classified for reasons of national security. If you can't, I guess you'll have to admit you don't know what you're talking about.

Love these off tangent diversions.

My point to kallend - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2824820#2824820

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And this from someone who condones Cheney's story about Atta in Prague.

Nice try, sporto. What I challenged was your use of Cheney's 2001 statements on the subject as examples of his intentionally lying.

It was a bullshit false claim on your part.

Just because someone is shown to have told a lie, that doesn't mean everything they say is a lie.

On the other hand, I've personally noted that those who dishonestly twist the facts, tend to do so on a regular basis.

C'est la vie.

[narcimund 0]

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Just because someone is shown to have told a lie, that doesn't mean everything they say is a lie.

On the other hand, I've personally noted that those who dishonestly twist the facts, tend to do so on a regular basis.

What?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[wmw999 2,447]

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On the other hand, I've personally noted that those who dishonestly twist the facts, tend to do so on a regular basis.

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What?

Ha! When I do it, it's not dishonestly twisting the facts. It's simply applying a little bit of judgment to see what the real truth is

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Read the report - it's just possible that even you can learn something.

You keep offering up those elusive 'needles in the haystack" to confirm what otherwise seems to be made up.

Those veiled PAs are a nice touch.

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On the other hand, I've personally noted that those who dishonestly twist the facts, tend to do so on a regular basis.

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What?

Ha! When I do it, it's not dishonestly twisting the facts. It's simply applying a little bit of judgment to see what the real truth is

Wendy W.

Clearly, it's your world and I'm just living in it.

[narcimund 0]

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Just because someone is shown to have told a lie, that doesn't mean everything they say is a lie.

On the other hand, I've personally noted that those who dishonestly twist the facts, tend to do so on a regular basis.

I'm still REALLY curious what the hell this means. Are you really making a distinction between two types of people? Can you tell us what this somewhat surprising claim means? I'm fascinated.

Let's see if I can piece it together... there's a type of falsehood called "lie". People who lie don't ALWAYS lie. But there's another type of falsehood called "twist the facts" and anyone who does that can't help but keep doing it...

Nah, I think I need more instruction before I'm going to get this one.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

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Just because someone is shown to have told a lie, that doesn't mean everything they say is a lie.

On the other hand, I've personally noted that those who dishonestly twist the facts, tend to do so on a regular basis.

I'm still REALLY curious what the hell this means. Are you really making a distinction between two types of people? Can you tell us what this somewhat surprising claim means? I'm fascinated.

Let's see if I can piece it together... there's a type of falsehood called "lie". People who lie don't ALWAYS lie. But there's another type of falsehood called "twist the facts" and anyone who does that can't help but keep doing it...

Nah, I think I need more instruction before I'm going to get this one.

I'll try and make this simple for you.

If you catch someone lying to you, odds are they'll do it again. But that doesn't mean everything they say is a lie.

Hope that helps.