The 2003 war in Iraq - does anybody still fully support it?

[narcimund 0]

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I seem to remember there were something like four or five people who were Pro-Iraq war, but who also made a lot of posts.

Yes, I also remember that the post volume was heavily weighted to the "Glass Parking Lot" group, but polls reflected calmer minds.

Why wouldn't the peaceful types write about their positions but would click anonymously on a poll option? That's worth wondering about.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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So a reasonable response would have been all diplomatic and lawful channels, if this then resulted in the Taliban still refusing then a case can probably be made to justify Invading the country,

This was done. The Taliban refused to comply.

No it was not and in fact Robert Mueller, head of the FBI, reported eight months later after an intense investigation (and intense bombing of the country) the US believed that the 9-11 plot was hatched in Afghanistan but implemented in the UAE and Germany.

Believed, as in 8 months earlier they didn’t know, and therefore couldn’t provide evidence when the Taliban, reasonably, asked for it.

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I have a feeling that ANY response would be unsatisfactory to you.

Yes any response that involves killing further innocent people except as a last resort after all diplomatic avenues were taken and clear evidence that supported the US claims was established.

[Royd 0]

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Yes any response that involves killing further innocent people except as a last resort after all diplomatic avenues were taken and clear evidence that supported the US claims was established.

Would bowing down to the rule of Islamic law be one of those diplomatic avenues?
Some people only understand the sword.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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Yes any response that involves killing further innocent people except as a last resort after all diplomatic avenues were taken and clear evidence that supported the US claims was established.

Would bowing down to the rule of Islamic law be one of those diplomatic avenues?
Some people only understand the sword.

Thankyou for sharing your blatant ignorance regarding this subject.

[billvon 3,059]

>Thankyou for sharing your blatant ignorance regarding this subject.

Your one warning.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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>Thankyou for sharing your blatant ignorance regarding this subject.

Your one warning.

Calling someone ignorant with regards to a specific subject is not the same as calling them just ignorant or stupid and we can also if we wanted further look into his words as both bigoted and fucking racist if “some people” only understand the sword.

He clearly knows nothing about Islam, current world conflicts or the invasion of Afghanistan; he is ignorant of these subjects. I didn’t call him an ignorant or stupid person I said he is ignorant “regarding this subject”.

[billvon 3,059]

>I didn’t call him an ignorant or stupid person I said he is
>ignorant “regarding this subject”.

I don't care if you have a notarized copy of his IQ test right there in front of you. No personal attacks. Period.

[rehmwa 2]

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>Thankyou for sharing your blatant ignorance regarding this subject.

Your one warning.

Calling someone ignorant with regards to a specific subject is not the same as calling them just ignorant or stupid and we can also if we wanted further look into his words as both bigoted and fucking racist

careful, you might get another "last warning" again

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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>I didn’t call him an ignorant or stupid person I said he is
>ignorant “regarding this subject”.

I don't care if you have a notarized copy of his IQ test right there in front of you. No personal attacks. Period.

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1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

Can I say he appears ignorant?

If I create a thread and give my thesis on quantum physics actually being a theory of mashmellows and hot chocolate are people not allowed to say I am 'ignorant of quantum physics'?

Is unlearned a personal attack? lacking knowledge? are these phrases any less of a "personal attack" or is it simply that "ignorant" is a stronger sounding word?

[rehmwa 2]

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Can I say he appears ignorant?

Why would you do that? It's clearly a desire to insult him instead of just discussing the information you have that you believe he doesn't.

I thought only people from West Virginia did that.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NCclimber 0]

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Can I say he appears ignorant?

Why would you do that? It's clearly a desire to insult him instead of just discussing the information you have that you believe he doesn't.

I thought only people from West Virginia did that.

More state-racism?

[billvon 3,059]

>Can I say he appears ignorant?

No. I'll try one more time:

No personal attacks for any reason. Period.

>If I create a thread and give my thesis on quantum physics actually
>being a theory of mashmellows and hot chocolate are people not allowed
>to say I am 'ignorant of quantum physics'?

Nope. They can say your theory is wrong (i.e. attacking your idea.) Personally I'd just think it was funny. But they can't say YOU are ignorant.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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Can I say he appears ignorant?

Why would you do that? It's clearly a desire to insult him instead of just discussing the information you have that you believe he doesn't.

I thought only people from West Virginia did that.

Well there are something’s that really aren't worth discussing, but if that is the road I should take then sure I can do that and it will further demonstrate why I didn’t bother and used the language I did in the first place

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Would bowing down to the rule of Islamic law be one of those diplomatic avenues?

Where did I say this? How is that not a snide personal attack towards me? Diplomatic avenues are a general term but you can research the boundaries of them within documents dealing with international law.

If anything it only shows his “lack of understanding” about current events by thinking there is a war with Islam or that Afghanistan in particular want to export Islamic law to the rest of the world. I guess contrary to his “lack of understanding” would be the 1000 Islamic Afghanistan academics, scholars and religious representatives that were invited to a discussion on how the US should handle Afghanistan (after they had bombed the shit out of it and invaded) and I believe the words they used were the US were “beating the donkey instead of the rider” and naturally they were completely ignored.

How about a look at history and his “lack of understanding”? Bowing down to Islamic law? You mean like the US made the people of Afghanistan do when they gave millions of dollars in aid and weapons to a fundamentalist group and then simply left them to rule the country once the Russians had gone?

How about current events and his “lack of understanding”? Bowing down to Islamic law? Like the US essentially make the people of Saudi Arabia do when they give millions of dollars in aid and weapons to the Saudi Royal family to help with things like internal Islamic law and the suppression of democracy? Whoops my fucking bad, living under the thumb of Islamic law is only bad if you are American.

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Some people only understand the sword.

So here is the second part…

Some people? Who are some people? Afghanis? Arabs? People that live in the Middle East? If so that is some pretty strong racism because it is either that or the people you gave about a million swords too, who subsequently understand more than the sword because they asked for words to justify US demands.

If Cuba knocks on the US’s door and demands the US hands over people that they suspect of bombing Cuba do you think the US would ask for evidence? And this is clearly a hypothetical if you know anything about extradition of people the US have and don’t want to give to others.

So in an equal world…

Cuba – Please hand over this guy we think he is bombing us and also let our military into your country to ensure the closing of his training camps
US – Please provide some evidence for this
Cuba – well we gave you 20 days, its clear you only understand the sword

Whoops I guess I should have just wasted 10 minutes of my day and typed all of that instead of the “personal attack”, so I guess an apology is in order, sorry.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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>Can I say he appears ignorant?

No. I'll try one more time:

No personal attacks for any reason. Period.

>If I create a thread and give my thesis on quantum physics actually
>being a theory of mashmellows and hot chocolate are people not allowed
>to say I am 'ignorant of quantum physics'?

Nope. They can say your theory is wrong (i.e. attacking your idea.) Personally I'd just think it was funny. But they can't say YOU are ignorant.

Ok ignorant is out, thanks for clearing that up.

[philh 0]

Well Steve finally we are in total agreement.
Iraq has a huge error, but i believe the war in Afghanistan is justified. Re deploy the troops there, something that should have been done in the first place.
Radical Islam is deadly enemy we need to fight. Nato forces had a right to launch operations in Afghanistan as they had attacked us, but we had no right to attack Iraq. Lets admit the error and move on.

By the way Royd, why do you want London to be a battlefied in thsi battle? Can you elaborate please?

[vortexring 0]

Unfortunately, and as I suspected, it's turned into a bit of an arguement.

Fuck that for now - we can argue later - can we at least have some honest and individual opinions on the matter?

There's numerous SC users not explaining their vote.

Essentially, this poll is only beneficial to us all if people are willing to vote and give a brief explanation as to why. It's not really asking for a lot is it?

Place your vote, give a brief explantion as to why, and perhaps we can see something of benefit to us all.

Or are people being a bit shy or what? Do I smell?

(Yes, you do, smelly........hahah)

Vote - explain why, puh-leez.

At the very least, with a reasonable broadbrush of votes, we can start talking about some interesting human psychology and basic reasoning.

And it's got nothing to do with point scoring amongst individuals, or political parties.

It's something we can all benefit from. It just requires a wee bit of cooperation. All it takes is a few minutes of your time. Please.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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but i believe the war in Afghanistan is justified.

You can believe that all you want but as I have clearly shown it isn't.

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Nato forces had a right to launch operations in Afghanistan as they had attacked us

No they didn't and Afghanistan had attacked no one.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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Unfortunately, and as I suspected, it's turned into a bit of an arguement.

Fuck that for now - we can argue later - can we at least have some honest and individual opinions on the matter?

There's numerous SC users not explaining their vote.

Essentially, this poll is only beneficial to us all if people are willing to vote and give a brief explanation as to why. It's not really asking for a lot is it?

Place your vote, give a brief explantion as to why, and perhaps we can see something of benefit to us all.

Or are people being a bit shy or what? Do I smell?

(Yes, you do, smelly........hahah)

Vote - explain why, puh-leez.

At the very least, with a reasonable broadbrush of votes, we can start talking about some interesting human psychology and basic reasoning.

And it's got nothing to do with point scoring amongst individuals, or political parties.

It's something we can all benefit from. It just requires a wee bit of cooperation. All it takes is a few minutes of your time. Please.

I voted for no - at no stage, clearly.

The reason being it was the usual US imperial aggression that has been around for a long time and it was clear to almost everyone.

[philh 0]

You showed no such thing. I showed you the quotes from the Taliban that clearly stated the reson they werent handing over OBL was muslim pride, not lack of evidence, do I need to dig them up again?

[Royd 0]

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Calling someone ignorant with regards to a specific subject is not the same as calling them just ignorant or stupid and we can also if we wanted further look into his words as both bigoted and fucking racist if “some people” only understand the sword.

Yea, I'm just winging it off of the top of my head.

What are their laws concerning women in general?

How about women who have sex outside of marriage?

Do they sit them down and have a nice little talk with them?

How do they treat someone carrying a Bible instead of a Quran?

It is a religion that does not know the meaning of tolerance.

There are some people who only respond to the most severe of punishment.

Let's say that I have a naturally antagonistic neighbor. Maybe he has dogs that bark all night, or holds loud parties into the night.
I call the police on him, he suspects it's me, and the next day my mailbox has been destroyed.

It finally comes to a head to head and I soundly kick his ass.
Instead of trying to get along, he starts looking for an opportunity for revenge.

This person is only going to understand incarceration or death.

Some people simply have no intention of getting along with their neighbors.

In Baghdad there are different sects of the same religion and their way of resolving differences surely isn't to sit down and have a talk. They blow each other to bits.

Have I missed something in my observations?

No bigotry or racism in that observation that I can see.

[Royd 0]

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By the way Royd, why do you want London to be a battlefied in thsi battle? Can you elaborate please?

Hasn't law enforcement captured several radical Islamists recently, who were plotting to do serious damage to the infrastructure?
It was their intention of bringing their war of ideology to people whom they consider to be infidels.

[philh 0]

Yes Uk police has arrested several radical Islamacists , and it is likely we will continue to face this problem and become a front in this battle. but i dont knwo why one would hope this to be the case, which is what you said. I would hope there are no more radical Islamcists in the Uk (or anywhere for that matter), of course this is not a relaistic hope.

When you say Islam is intolerant i would agree with you. There is certainly much in the teachings of Islam which represents great intolerance. But that is also true in the bible; whilst we are in a fortunate position now in that most followers of biblical texts dont focus on such intolerant passages, they are there. Islam is in the unfortunate position now in that many of its followers are following rather than ignoring its ugly passages. This however has happened in Christianity eg the dark ages and one cannot rule it happening again. Those that believe homo sexuals victims of Aids deserve their disease are perhaps modern representatives of this trend.

[Amazon 7]

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There's numerous SC users not explaining their vote.

I thought is was a really stupid move back then. The US already was doing what it needed to do after 9/11 and going after those who were responsible.

Anyone with half a brain could realize that the Iraquis in power at the time would choose to run away and fight another day. ( they had already been undeluded by their military showing in Gulf War 1)

Anyone with half a brain realized that the whole we would be met as liberators was following and believing a bunch of delusional twits. To bad all the delusional twits stayed at home nice and safe and sent off the realists in our military to do the dirty work and die in place of the delusional greedy macho twits who would not be caught dead putting their kids asses in harms way.

In hind sight it has not turned out to be a stupid move.. its turned out to be and incredibly incompetent exercise in losing the support of the rest of the world that now fears what the fuck we are going to do next.

People who are threatened and scared of big bad bullies tend to band together and do nasty things to the bully.

[NCclimber 0]

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There's numerous SC users not explaining their vote.

I voted for the first option because I thought that would have the most inflamatory effect. I rarely take these polls seriously.

As to the topic of dicussion, I opposed the invasion before it began. Since it began, I've hoped for the best... thinking there are/were some military experts, who did their homework and were smart enough to win this thing. More and more this looks like a historically significant global blunder.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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You showed no such thing. I showed you the quotes from the Taliban that clearly stated the reson they werent handing over OBL was muslim pride, not lack of evidence, do I need to dig them up again?

Go ahead and dig them up they were probably ridiculous the first time around but sure give me a second laugh.

I might as well also point out the elephant in the room… A very simple way to test your theory is if they had been given evidence and then rejected it and still not handed him over. It didn’t even get that far and nor was it given time to, the US had a goal and that goal was immediate retaliation at a defenseless target.

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Calling someone ignorant with regards to a specific subject is not the same as calling them just ignorant or stupid and we can also if we wanted further look into his words as both bigoted and fucking racist if “some people” only understand the sword.

Yea, I'm just winging it off of the top of my head.

What are their laws concerning women in general?

How about women who have sex outside of marriage?

Do they sit them down and have a nice little talk with them?

How do they treat someone carrying a Bible instead of a Quran?

It is a religion that does not know the meaning of tolerance.

You ask several questions regarding a fundamentalist group (which you gave millions of dollars in weapons to and left to brutally repress the people of Afghanistan) but then you end with the statement that the religion as a whole, not just the fundamentalist groups like the Taliban, doesn’t know tolerance.

So are you talking about the Taliban or are you talking about Muslims? Because it’s becoming very clear you don’t know yourself.

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There are some people who only respond to the most severe of punishment.

And you don’t seem to be able to define even for yourself who these “some people” are…

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Let's say that I have a naturally antagonistic neighbor. Maybe he has dogs that bark all night, or holds loud parties into the night.
I call the police on him, he suspects it's me, and the next day my mailbox has been destroyed.

It finally comes to a head to head and I soundly kick his ass.
Instead of trying to get along, he starts looking for an opportunity for revenge.

This person is only going to understand incarceration or death.

This analogy makes no sense at all.

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Some people simply have no intention of getting along with their neighbors.

Uhoh it’s the magical “some people” again! When you figure out or can properly define the “some people” clan maybe you can come back and let us all know about them and just exactly what or who they are

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Have I missed something in my observations?

Yes and you have also missed something in your definitions