Re: [billvon] Petition to support a BSR change to reduce canopy fatalities

[nathaniel 0]

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Legislation is the act of making laws. USPA does not make laws. No one has to follow the BSR's if they don't want to. Most DZO's do because having a simple and effective list of rules makes their DZ's safer, protects them from lawsuits, and keeps their friends alive.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/30/L0073000.html

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law

NOUN: 1. A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority. 2a. The body of rules and principles governing the affairs of a community and enforced by a political authority; a legal system: international law. b. The condition of social order and justice created by adherence to such a system: a breakdown of law and civilized behavior. 3. A set of rules or principles dealing with a specific area of a legal system: tax law; criminal law. 4. A piece of enacted legislation. 5a. The system of judicial administration giving effect to the laws of a community: All citizens are equal before the law. b. Legal action or proceedings; litigation: submit a dispute to law. c. An impromptu or extralegal system of justice substituted for established judicial procedure: frontier law. 6a. An agency or agent responsible for enforcing the law. Often used with the: “The law . . . stormed out of the woods as the vessel was being relieved of her cargo” (Sid Moody). b. Informal A police officer. Often used with the. 7a. The science and study of law; jurisprudence. b. Knowledge of law. c. The profession of an attorney. 8. Something, such as an order or a dictum, having absolute or unquestioned authority: The commander's word was law. 9. Law a. The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible. b. The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures. 10. A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature. 11a. A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship. b. A way of life: the law of the jungle. 12a. A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity. b. A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand. 13. Mathematics A general principle or rule that is assumed or that has been proven to hold between expressions. 14. A principle of organization, procedure, or technique: the laws of grammar; the laws of visual perspective.

BSRs are rules of conduct and procedure established by custom, and by the USPA, which is an authority on parachuting and parachuting safety. They are not the final authority on the subject, and they do not have sharp teeth. But they are essentially a legislative body. They make laws. Not criminal laws, but laws entered into voluntarily for the benefits promulgated thereby.

Their structure is clearly federal. Not capital F Federal as in elected and/or operated by the United States government, but federal, as in centralized and governing over local entities (dropzones).

Thus, USPA BSRs are federal regulations. Similar letter and same spirit as Federal Regulations, but different means to accomplish the ends.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[mnealtx 0]

Are you still on about that? USPA is not a Federal agency and the BSR's do not have the force of law.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

heh - which moderator lost patience with your insistence on redefining 'federal' for an irrelevent point in the debate?

[nathaniel 0]

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redefining 'federal'

I didn't put it in the dictionary, the original usage in question is true to the language. Federal was and is an adjective before the US gov't was invented.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[mnealtx 0]

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redefining 'federal'

I didn't put it in the dictionary, the original usage in question is true to the language. Federal was and is an adjective before the US gov't was invented.

And as I said before.. if USPA is a Federal agency, it should be easy to find their line item in the budget... or who Congress approved as the head of the agency.

Get back to us with that, will ya?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[nathaniel 0]

Likewise, the FAI has Federation in its name, do you dispute that it is a federation, or that it is an agency? That the adjective federal would apply to it or its regulations?

Your fascination with the US gov't is provincial and not germane to whether BSRs are federal regulations.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[mnealtx 0]

Ok, so you've realized you can't prove your point...good enough.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[nathaniel 0]

The point that the original poster had, I believe, was in regards to centrally planned authority. All the traditional criticisms of federal rule apply more or less directly to the USPA, even though it does not have sovereign geographical boundaries--it is a federal governing agency analogous to the ones operated by the United States.

It's a strawman tactic to pretend that affiliation with the US govt has anything to do with the politics of federalism.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[Nightingale 0]

No, it isn't.

Unlike the federal government, the USPA has no authority at all beyond what we as members give it.

[livendive 8]

I replied in that other thread, but am moving the relevant part here before a moderator has to. In reply to Kallend...

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USPA has the administrative support in litigation of the FAA. (As in a recent incident here). That is a federal agency professor.

You're splitting hairs to make this argument a political PA. Spare me.

Everyone else gets my point...whether they agree with it or not.

When discussing rules, precision of language is important. As are facts. USPA is not a federal agency and BSRs are not federal regulations.

I didn't see where he said that USPA is a federal agency. Given that we are trying to remain a "self regulating" sport, and USPA represent our de facto mode of governance, I'd say the BSRs do fit the definition of "regulations". "National" probably would have worked better than "federal", but given that we are divided into regions with each having its own director who sits on the national BOD, the difference seems trivial enough to merit little attention.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rehmwa 2]

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Unlike the federal government, the USPA has no authority at all beyond what we as members give it.

I'd say the federal government has no authority at all beyong what we as member give it......

though I disagree with the OP (but I understand his point and see where he's coming from)

Various clubs, unions, major corporations, are national and has members and rules and stuff, but I wouldn't say they are any more "federal" than USPA

But, since it's gone from Federal, to federal, to "analogous to federal" I think common ground has been hit.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Nightingale 0]

hehe.

The difference is in the degree.

[kallend 2,106]

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Likewise, the FAI has Federation in its name, do you dispute that it is a federation, or that it is an agency? That the adjective federal would apply to it or its regulations?

Your fascination with the US gov't is provincial and not germane to whether BSRs are federal regulations.

FAI is indeed a federation - a collection of individually autonomous associations such as the NAA and RAC. The USPA is NOT a federation - its regions are not individually autonomous.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.