Were did God come from?

[Remster 30]

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Whether or not I believe in God, I cannot prove that he exists, and neither can you.

Thats why this argument will never be settled TK. You and I cant see a proof. Paj is convinced the bible (and the stars, and the snowflakes, and the pretty puppies) are perfect proofs.

Remster

[pajarito 0]

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Abraham aside, if I had never heard of the Saviour (and there must be countless millions, since the begining of our race that fall into that category.... to whom would they have repented?

God

[pajarito 0]

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Added: But if that roadmap doesn't lead you to the cross, it is leading you in the wrong direction.

According to you. Sounds like a very large judgement to me.

If you were a blind man casually walking toward the edge of a 1000ft cliff, would it be "judging you" if I screamed at you to stop and turn around because I knew that you were about to die?

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Arguing these points with you is like arguing with a brick wall.

My wife tells me that sometimes.

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You're wanting to believe in Fred Flintstone and I'm more interested in Einstein.

I have no idea what that's got to do with anything. I've got Stephen Hawking's book, "A Brief History of Time" right beside one of my Bibles on my book shelf. I am very interested in science and how it tries to explain the wonders and workings of God's creation.

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No way am I gonna change your opinion and you're sure not going to change mine.

I just hope you don't wind up in hell because you were stubborn.

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As far as your concerned, I'm going to hell. Which is acceptable, because going to a non-existent place isn't anything to fear.

I hope you don't go to hell. Sincerely. It is a real place and you don't want to be there...forever... However, you have a conscience (con = with, science = knowledge) and with knowledge comes accountability. You've been told. Thanks for discussing it with me.

[pajarito 0]

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The difference is that I DO believe in the law of gravity and I can actually prove that it exists.

I can prove God exists too. You just don't accept the proof. You believe something came from nothing, blew up, and produced an organized everything. I say God orchestrated the whole thing just like he said he did.

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Whether or not I believe in God, I cannot prove that he exists, and neither can you.

Creation - Conscience

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And yes, I even have a will to live, but I am not so arrogant to assume that I will live forever. I am totally content to believe that once my life is over that it IS actually over.

What you "believe" is not as important as what is actually so. Hell is a very long time to know you're wrong.

[Shotgun 1]

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I can prove God exists too. You just don't accept the proof.

I have never seen you provide any proof that God exists, but I would certainly be interested in seeing such proof, if it exists.

[pajarito 0]

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I can prove God exists too. You just don't accept the proof.

I have never seen you provide any proof that God exists, but I would certainly be interested in seeing such proof, if it exists.

We've been through this already. Read way back in the thread.

[Shotgun 1]

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I can prove God exists too. You just don't accept the proof.

I have never seen you provide any proof that God exists, but I would certainly be interested in seeing such proof, if it exists.

We've been through this already. Read way back in the thread.

Oh, ok. I've been following the thread, so whatever it was, it must have been something that I didn't think of as actual proof.

[pajarito 0]

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Oh, ok. I've been following the thread, so whatever it was, it must have been something that I didn't think of as actual proof.

Ok

[shropshire 0]

>

Which one?





Sorry





But, (and I'm sorry to push this). How do folk that were not present in the Middel East at the time of the Bible and there after; in the communications pathway.... (i.e The majority of the world.... let's pick Australia as an example) - How did the One true God make him selft known to the vast majority of folk who have peopled this planet?

Because, and lets face it. Christianity is a single Middle Eastern (Israel/Palistine) based religion. It's not a world religion.... It's one of many - So, who is right? Is there a right?


.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[pajarito 0]

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How do folk that were not present in the Middel East at the time of the Bible and there after; in the communications pathway.... (i.e The majority of the world.... let's pick Australia as an example) - How did the One true God make him selft known to the vast majority of folk who have peopled this planet?

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Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has showed it to them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and God-head, so that they are without excuse: Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 1:19-25

God’s existence is clearly seen through creation.

The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.
–Sir Isaac Newton

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator.
–Louis Pasteur

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Because, and lets face it. Christianity is a single Middle Eastern (Israel/Palistine) based religion. It's not a world religion.... It's one of many - So, who is right? Is there a right?

Well, since Christianity is diametrically opposed to all the others, they could all be wrong but they cannot all be right. So we’d better dig down deep and figure it out.

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When I look at a building, how do I know that there was a builder? I can’t see him, hear him, touch, taste, or smell him. Of course, the building is proof that there was a builder. In fact, I couldn’t want better evidence that there was a builder than to have the building in front of me. I don’t need faith to know that there was a builder. All I need are eyes that can see and a brain that works.

Likewise, when I look at a painting, how can I know that there was a painter? Again, the painting is proof positive that there was a painter. I don’t need faith to believe in a painter because I can see the clear evidence.

The same principle applies with the existence of God. When I look at creation, how can I know that there was a Creator? I can’t see Him, hear Him, touch Him, taste Him, or smell Him. How can I know that He exists? Why, creation shows me that there is a Creator. I couldn’t want better proof that a Creator exists than to have the creation in front of me. I don’t need faith to believe in a Creator, all I need are eyes that can see and a brain that works: For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and God-head, so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

If however, I want the builder to do something for me, then I need to have faith in him. The same applies to God. Without faith it is impossible to please him: for He that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him (Hebrews 11:6).
Ray Comfort – Evidence Bible

[shropshire 0]

Paj' thanks for taking the time to reply.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[pajarito 0]

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Paj' thanks for taking the time to reply.

No problem whatsoever.

[DSE 5]

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No way am I gonna change your opinion and you're sure not going to change mine.

I just hope you don't wind up in hell because you were stubborn.

Unfortunately, I seem to find evangelicals everywhere I turn. By my definition, the experience *IS* hell.
I feel bad that Christians lead a deprived, debased, and deluded life in hopes of a very specious and ignorant belief in heaven or hell. It's unfortunate. I hope one day you're able to see the follies and perils of your path. Christians in general need this awakening so that they can be productive members of society rather than hand-wringing instruments of corporate America.
I do find it rather amusing that once again, Catholics are deemed to not be Christians. Catholicism is responsible for the very book Christians claim to follow, and they're responsible for protecting and generating the myth of Christ.
I guess that's kinda like how Christ was once king, then Elvis, then Michael Jackson, and now it's probably Paris Hilton.

[NCclimber 0]

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I seem to find evangelicals everywhere I turn.

I find it interesting when I read posts like this... as if individuals are regularly being prostheletized to. I have such experiences maybe once or twice a year and it's almost always done in a relatively non-confrontational manner.

We have some neighbors (who are Mormons) that we regularly run into and a good friend is a Jehovah's Witness, yet religion is rarely a topic of discussion.

Perhaps the reason certain individuals tend to attract such attention can be found in the old saying "The Lord works in mysterious ways". Perhaps.

[dorbie 0]

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P.S. to clarify; in the process prayer itself becomes an entirely introspective thing and the outcome matching the effort of the internal mind and nothing else, since science demonstrates that prayer does not work. Hence the only refuge is in something as yet immeasurable. Simultaneously there is an internal prayer or non-prayer that leads to other undesired outcomes. You see why I conclude it becomes rather silly.

If objective proof existed that prayer worked in any way that was not purely psychological, faith would be unnecessary.

Since objective proof exists that prayer does not work, what does that say about faith in prayer?

[jakee 1,490]

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Paj' thanks for taking the time to reply.

No problem whatsoever.

Well heck, while you're on here, would you like to admit that AiG are either incompetent or lying to you?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Royd 0]

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this argument is so ridiculous....Even a half-wit is capable of figuring out the non-existence of God as a physical individual that oversees the universe like some CEO.

So you completely discount your ancestry's notion of a Great Spirit?

[pajarito 0]

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Well heck, while you're on here, would you like to admit that AiG are either incompetent or lying to you?

I have to admit. This confused me and I have been looking for answers. I have even e-mailed AiG but have not heard back from them yet. They have answered me in the past, though, so I expect a response. Anyway, here is the passage in question:

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One commonly raised problem is ‘How could Noah fit all those huge dinosaurs on the Ark?’ First, of the 668 supposed dinosaur genera, only 106 weighed more than ten tons when fully grown. Second, the Bible does not say that the animals had to be fully-grown. The largest animals were probably represented by ‘teenage’ or even younger specimens. It may seem surprising, but the median size of all animals on the Ark would most likely have been that of a small rat, according to Woodmorappe’s up-to-date tabulations, while only about 11 percent would have been much larger than a sheep.

At first, I was looking at it from the perspective of your objection. I was trying to figure out why in the world he would use the median size to calculate space requirement of "all" the animals on the Ark. The mean would in fact be the appropriate measurement looking at the problem overall. However, in the context of the passage, is he not talking about the space requirement of any "one" animal? I admit I could be very wrong and that's why I have asked the source. I don't think anyone at AiG is "lying" to anyone, however.

[DSE 5]

First, nowhere in my culture does it proffer the concept of the Great Spirit being a single deity, that concept is proven to have come post-Euro incursion.
Second, my culture isa polytheistic culture that is *finally* figuring out the damage the bible and it's proponents have brought on our culture and at the moment, it's a confused mess (has been since the late 60's).
Finally, in the Dine' culture specifically, the concept of hozhoo' is personal, not universal.
In other words, although it might cause my family some consternation that I'm of a different opinion than some of them, I also don't find the opinion as being counter to cultural ideals of the past.
That said, you have hit on the exact reason that I've looked for other answers, because Christianity is by far the worse experience to hit *any* indigenous culture around the world, IMO.

[Butters 0]

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The question of who made God can be answered by simply looking at space and asking, "Does space have an end?" Obviously, it doesn't. If there is a brick wall with "The End" written on it, the question arises, "What is behind the brick wall?" Strain the mind though it may, we have to believe (have faith) that space has no beginning and no end. The same applies with God. He has no beginning and no end. He is eternal.

Are you saying that God and Space are both eternal and thus God does not need a creator? Wouldn't this also mean that Space does not need a creator? Wouldn't this mean that God did not create Space? Wouldn't this mean that God did not create everything? Wouldn't this mean that it is possible that there are other things that God did not create? ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pajarito 0]

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The question of who made God can be answered by simply looking at space and asking, "Does space have an end?" Obviously, it doesn't. If there is a brick wall with "The End" written on it, the question arises, "What is behind the brick wall?" Strain the mind though it may, we have to believe (have faith) that space has no beginning and no end. The same applies with God. He has no beginning and no end. He is eternal.

Are you saying that God and Space are both eternal and thus God does not need a creator? Wouldn't this also mean that Space does not need a creator? Wouldn't this mean that God did not create Space? Wouldn't this mean that God did not create everything? Wouldn't this mean that it is possible that there are other things that God did not create? ...

Are we reading the same quote? "What's behind the brick wall?" He's using space to give you a means by which to even begin to comprehend. By the way, I didn't say it. You keep stating, "Are you saying this...are you saying that?" Well...no....actually, I didn't. I agree with him but I can't take credit for his stuff. But thanks for contributing.

[Butters 0]

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Are you saying that God and Space are both eternal and thus God does not need a creator? Wouldn't this also mean that Space does not need a creator? Wouldn't this mean that God did not create Space? Wouldn't this mean that God did not create everything? Wouldn't this mean that it is possible that there are other things that God did not create? ...

Are we reading the same quote? "What's behind the brick wall?" He's using space to give you a means by which to even begin to comprehend. By the way, I didn't say it. You keep stating, "Are you saying this...are you saying that?" Well...no....actually, I didn't. I agree with him but I can't take credit for his stuff. But thanks for contributing.

I was not trying to put words in your mouth, sorry. First, space is not infinite. Second, everything that is created must have a creator (I believe we agree on this.). Third, not everything is created (I believe we disagree on this.).

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pajarito 0]

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I was not trying to put words in your mouth, sorry.

No problem...bra!

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First, space is not infinite.

How could you possibly know that? Have you seen "the brick wall" at the end with a sign on it saying "You have reached the end."

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Second, everything that is created must have a creator (I believe we agree on this.).

I agree with this but I was unaware that you also believed in the Creator.

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Third, not everything is created (I believe we disagree on this.).

I agree. Only one thing was not created...God.

[Amazon 7]

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How could you possibly know that? Have you seen "the brick wall" at the end with a sign on it saying "You have reached the end."

Its red brick and is full of patches from all the revisions....



Oh sorry.. that was the end of the internet.... that is the universe right....

[pajarito 0]

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How could you possibly know that? Have you seen "the brick wall" at the end with a sign on it saying "You have reached the end."

Its red brick and is full of patches from all the revisions....



Oh sorry.. that was the end of the internet.... that is the universe right....

I don't always know when to take your posts seriously and if some sort of an attempt at an intelligent response is desired or if they are simply angry and sarcastic rants to be laughed at by some and totally ignored by others.