pro life? - Pro choice?

[Amazon 7]

Still waiting on the figures there......



I

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will break my own rule here and repeat what others have said. (with my own spin) abortion is the tool of NOT being responsible for your actions.

When all that is taught is abstinence you are basically saying you prefer the young to be.. as your sig puts it.. STUCK on stupid..

Education is a wonderful thing and providing people with VIABLE sex education and birth control options is far more intelligent.... than teaching our young women about abstinece solely as the only means of preventing pregnancy.

AS I said.. that has never worked all that well...heat of the moment and such being what it is to MOST of the human race.

Well at least to those capable of actually getting laid.

[wmw999 2,534]

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I really try to stay out of things here (SC) but this is a hot issue for me.

If men could get pregnant we would not be having this yea/nay discussion.

I tend to agree.

And I'm pro choice, but there's sure a line between conception and birth after which it's seriously wrong, and before which it's really a matter of whether you think it's a person yet.

We don't mourn every lost fetus as though it were a miscarriage. Because we don't know about most of them.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Royd 0]

really try to stay out of things here (SC) but this is a hot issue for me.

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If men could get pregnant we would not be having this yea/nay discussion.

Jerry

PS) It all starts with the loss of one small liberty, and then . . . . .

I would love to see an across the board study of every woman who has ever had an abortion, and the number who actually have a deep regret for doing so. I'll bet it's huge.

[HeadCone 0]

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I really try to stay out of things here (SC) but this is a hot issue for me.

If men could get pregnant we would not be having this yea/nay discussion.

Jerry

PS) It all starts with the loss of one small liberty, and then . . . . .

If guys could get pregnant there would be more "suck it up tough guy and quit being such a pussy."

--Head

--
Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety!

http://www.citizensunitednegatingtechnology.org/

[wmw999 2,534]

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I would love to see an across the board study of every woman who has ever had an abortion, and the number who actually have a deep regret for doing so. I'll bet it's huge.

Thoughts, wondering, maybe. Deep regret, probably not. Women who think about it seriously consider the implications and consequences.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Royd 0]

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I would love to see an across the board study of every woman who has ever had an abortion, and the number who actually have a deep regret for doing so. I'll bet it's huge.

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Thoughts, wondering, maybe. Deep regret, probably not. Women who think about it seriously consider the implications and consequences.

So you don't think that most women come to the reality that they have extinguished the life of their own child, by choice?

[mijnjiku 0]

It's unfortunate this poll was created by someone heavily biased in the direction of the Pro-Life-at-all-costs agenda. I only say this because of the poll questions and the way they struck me.

*Pro Life Its an unborn child
*Pro Choice Its not a child until its born
*Its a child but still pro abortion
*Its not a child till its born but am against abortion
*Undecided
*There should be abortion for special circumstances only

That third option instantly did two things in my mind.

#1 It opened one of my cans of worms.
#2 It pegged the original poster as a Pro-lifer with a good chance he/she carried the *at-all-costs* clause WITHOUT even needing to read the post itself. (I may be wrong on that "at-all-costs" part but pro-lifer shines bright)

Here's why.

Pro-Choice does NOT equal pro-abortion. You can over-simplify it that way when you set the propaganda machine to "spin cycle", but the reality is that offering a choice doesn't mean you have to support the choice that's made. I am pro-choice in the context that I support the ability of everyone to make the choice that they feel is best for them. But I am not "pro-abortion". I think abortion is an unfortunate result (or "consequence" specifically) of an unfortunate series of events and/or decisions. (I specifically say "events" because genuine contraceptive failure is a roll of the dice, not a "decision"). I also am at least a little abhorred by the concept and procedure involved in abortion. But the nauseating feeling in my gut while watching an abortion procedure doesn't cloud my ability to form a rational opinion.

More than one person participating in this thread has mentioned abortion as a means to escape responsibility for one's actions. I find this statement to be personally inflammatory and generally ignorant. The fact of the matter is that for all actions we take or decisions we make, there are consequences. Some people may try to run and hide from the more negative consequences, but just because consequences have yet to be exerted, doesn't mean they haven't materialized. But less about the consequences for a moment and more about the things that lead to the consequences.

Decisions fall, for the sake of discussion, into two distinct categories:

#1 - Rational decisions which are made after evaluating the potential results and deciding based on one's perception of those results and one's ability/readiness to deal with those results.
#2 - Decisions which are made with no regard or attention to the potential results outside of how said decision gains them instant gratification.

As I think of it, #1 = good decisions, and #2 = bad decisions. Note that I'm not talking about any sort of moral compass when I use the words "good" and "bad".

Now here's the deal. As far as "what to do with a pregnancy" goes, there can be a lot of different variables each with different consequences (negative and positive). So, as such, disregarding (temporarily) the events or methodologies that led to the pregnancy, a decision needs to be made that at least takes in to account these "after-the-fact" possibilities. An obvious "after-the-fact" variable would be the health of the mother. I was glad to see one person specifically point out the "physical" as well as the "mental(i'll add emotional)" health of the mother as both are just as important as her physical health. I think many mothers would back me up when I say that in many ways, pregnancy is a very emotionally (and mentally) intense experience. As such, we can't forget that we shouldn't be endangering the physical, mental, or emotional health of a woman to any extent that would lead to some very negative consequences (i.e. suicide [i speak of this one from experience] or self-inflicted miscarriage etc). Note that this "after-the-fact" variable can largely be influenced by NOT ONLY the context in which conception occurred (i.e. rape, loving or abusive relationship, planned or unplanned), but also by the post-conception environment (this is a broad term) that the mother is in.

I'm getting a little too detailed here so I'll condense it down to this: When deciding what to do about a pregnancy, many more variables than just the binary end result (child lives or child dies) need to be considered. Given the breadth and depth of these other factors, I think blanketing anyone with the inability to make a "good" and rational decision (which may result in an abortion) for no other reason than to allow a 3rd party to have their way with the end result, is a DANGEROUS game to play. Remember, you're playing "god" with more than just 1 life. Also remember that when playing god, with great power comes great responsibility. So don't run and bitch about mommy taking out a welfare check after you forced her to have it a kid she didn't want in the first place Also note that your decisive infraction into the ability of an individual to make a choice that would likely lend itself to more positive consequences (for the individual and society as a whole) needs to be made from the awareness that, if she has a baby and can't take care of herself let alone the kid, you just created a liability that no one (i.e. society) agreed to. Hope you're making the decision that will lead to the most positive consequences for all involved. I try to avoid dealing in the matters of other people's lives.

[azdiver 0]

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i wondered where you all stand on this issue.

I think if you don't own the uterus, then it's probably none of your fucking business.

Agreed ...

Why is it that the father of the inutero baby has zero say about it's well-being all the way up to delivery and then instantly he's on the hook for 18 years?

I don't get how people can say - you've got no say about whether this baby lives, but if it does, then you're responsible???

if abortions are ok for women then men should have the same choice. personally im against murder.

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[Royd 0]

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I also am at least a little abhorred by the concept and procedure involved in abortion. But the nauseating feeling in my gut while watching an abortion procedure doesn't cloud my ability to form a rational opinion.

How many people who turn a blind eye from the abhorrence of the murder of millions of unborn babies, would gladly send someone to jail for throwing a bag of newborn kittens into a river? It's pure hypocracy.

[NCclimber 0]

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I would love to see an across the board study of every woman who has ever had an abortion, and the number who actually have a deep regret for doing so. I'll bet it's huge.

Thoughts, wondering, maybe. Deep regret, probably not. Women who think about it seriously consider the implications and consequences.

Wendy W.

You just keep telling yourself that. Here's a survey of women who had abortions.
http://www.afterabortion.info/survey1.html

Some highlights
Are you satisfied with your choice today? Not at all -95%
Do you feel your decision was well thought out? Not at all - 74%
Do you feel you had all of the necessary information to make the decision? Not at all - 88%
Would you ever have another abortion? Not at all - 95%
Were there any negative psychological effects you attribute to your abortion? Yes - 94%
Was post-abortion counseling available through the clinic or referral agency? Not at all - 76%
Knowing where your life is today, would you still have chosen abortion? Not at all - 94%
Did the clinic, doctor, or counselor help you to explore your decision? Not at all - 84%
Were you given information about the biological nature of the fetus? - 90%
This two-part question is quite telling:
What was your opinion about the nature of the fetus?
no answer 4%
human 26%
non-human 30%
other 40%
What is your opinion about the nature of the fetus?
no answer 3%
human 97%
non-human 0%
other 0%

If counseling a friend who was in a situation such as yours, would you encourage her to choose an abortion? Not at all - 98%
What are your feelings about abortion today?
(negative-1; positive-5) 98% chose 1 (most negative)

[NCclimber 0]

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The sad part is that most of the supposed pro-lifers out there want to keep em stupid no form of birth control.. no form of sex edu... the only option is abstinence

This is bullshit!

[rushmc 23]

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The sad part is that most of the supposed pro-lifers out there want to keep em stupid no form of birth control.. no form of sex edu... the only option is abstinence

This is bullshit!

Hard to leave that one along isn't it? I get the feeling we are all just evil

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[pirana 0]

Forced to choose amongst those option I take allowing a woman the option to choose for herself.

The longer answer is that in The World According to Don, abortion would be legal for anyone for any reason up to the average age of sentience. This would be easy enough to establish by examination and studies of brain wave activity.

At the point where the fetus is capable of conscious thought, when it is likely (or even highly possible) to be aware of itself and surroundings, then it is a conscious human being and should not be terminated.

Before that it is no more advanced than the embryo of a non-human animal. Strictly personal opinion - the only kind I have.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Butters 0]

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At the point where the fetus is capable of conscious thought, when it is likely (or even highly possible) to be aware of itself and surroundings, then it is a conscious human being and should not be terminated.

I wonder if it is possible to determine the moment a fetus is capable of conscious thought.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

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The longer answer is that in The World According to Don, abortion would be legal for anyone for any reason up to the average age of sentience.

I agree, abortions should be allowed to be done on a person up to (on average) the age of 27 years old. Some limited to quite a bit before that, some can pretty well be aborted through their entire life.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Amazon 7]

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How many people who turn a blind eye from the abhorrence of the murder of millions of unborn babies, would gladly send someone to jail for throwing a bag of newborn kittens into a river? It's pure hypocracy.

How many people who abhor any form of abortion... fully support a WIDE range of crimes with the penalty for them for who dies in gas chambers...hanging...electrocution or firing squads and think that lethal injection is far too humane for such criminal scum.
Or even better still their propensity to fully support WAR as THE solution to most any international slight by other countries.

[NCclimber 0]

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How many people who abhor any form of abortion... fully support a WIDE range of crimes with the penalty for them for who dies in gas chambers...hanging...electrocution or firing squads and think that lethal injection is far too humane for such criminal scum.
Or even better still their propensity to fully support WAR as THE solution to most any international slight by other countries.

More relevant to this discussion - how many in this country? I'd guess the number would be relatively small.

[PLFXpert 0]

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How many people who turn a blind eye from the abhorrence of the murder of millions of unborn babies, would gladly send someone to jail for throwing a bag of newborn kittens into a river? It's pure hypocracy.

Take "a bag of newborn kittens" out of your analogy and replace it with "a baby in a bag".

There is often a difference.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Amazon 7]

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More relevant to this discussion - how many in this country? I'd guess the number would be relatively small.

Then why do we read so many right wingers right here who do not want justice.. they want vengeance from our criminal justice system.... and there is so much support on the right wing... for George and Dicks Excellent Iraqui Adventure... yet will not allow for any form of abortion after conception.

I read it daily...abortion bad....war good...criminals need to die...

Nice one.

[peregrinerose 0]

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Pro-Choice does NOT equal pro-abortion. You can over-simplify it that way when you set the propaganda machine to "spin cycle", but the reality is that offering a choice doesn't mean you have to support the choice that's made. I am pro-choice in the context that I support the ability of everyone to make the choice that they feel is best for them. But I am not "pro-abortion". I think abortion is an unfortunate result (or "consequence" specifically) of an unfortunate series of events and/or decisions.

I agree with this completely. Abortion is a symptom of a problem. I would love for there to be absolutely no market for abortions. I'd love to see no teen pregnancy, wiser decision making, better birth control, active teaching of birth control to teens, better support systems for women who are pregnant, more adoptions... people more willing to skip the fertility treatments and adopt instead.

People as a whole are selfishly motivated though, so I'm not sure that things will ever change.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[NCclimber 0]

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More relevant to this discussion - how many in this country? I'd guess the number would be relatively small.

Then why do we read so many right wingers right here who do not want justice.. they want vengeance from our criminal justice system.... and there is so much support on the right wing... for George and Dicks Excellent Iraqui Adventure... yet will not allow for any form of abortion after conception.

I read it daily...abortion bad....war good...criminals need to die...

Nice one.

Of course, getting you to provide actual quotes to support your claims is out of the question.

That's 100% behind the War in Iraq and 100% against abortion... and "fully support a WIDE range of crimes with the penalty for them for who dies in gas chambers...hanging...electrocution or firing squads"...so many... that you read it daily. Riiight!

[Nightingale 0]

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I feel the same way, to a certain extent. But then I think, if a woman wants to kill her one-week old baby, is that any of my business?

At the time a baby is one week old, that baby can be given up for adoption or left at one of the many safe drop-off locations. When the child becomes separate from the mother, that's where society is permitted to step in.

[Nightingale 0]

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I support abortion in cases where the woman was raped, or when her life is threatened (she won't survive the pregnancy to term), she should have the choice in those cases.

The problem with this is that it encourages women to falsely report rape. They either have to:

1. allow any woman who says "rape" to have an abortion

2. allow any woman with a substantiated claim to have an abortion (investigations take time...), or

3. only allow abortion after a conviction (very impractical).

The logistics of that just don't work out. If you go with 1, the woman gets her abortion and a man (possibly innocent) gets investigated for rape. This encourages women who want abortions to file false police reports. Sure, they may get investigated and charged for this, but they got their abortion. If you go with 2, the woman may have actually been raped and the evidence just isn't there (sometimes it really isn't), and if you go with 3, well, investigations and trials can take a long time. Sometimes much longer than 9 months.

[Royd 0]

How many people who turn a blind eye from the abhorrence of the murder of millions of unborn babies, would gladly send someone to jail for throwing a bag of newborn kittens into a river? It's pure hypocracy.

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How many people who abhor any form of abortion... fully support a WIDE range of crimes with the penalty for them for who dies in gas chambers...hanging...electrocution or firing squads and think that lethal injection is far too humane for such criminal scum.
Or even better still their propensity to fully support WAR as THE solution to most any international slight by other countries.

Hey, you missed one that would be really good. Shoving a pipe into the base of their skulls and sucking their brains out.

[Royd 0]

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Then why do we read so many right wingers right here who do not want justice.. they want vengeance from our criminal justice system

Are you a closet right winger? Come on out!