NCclimber 0 #176 June 22, 2007 Quote >Or course all this scenarios have major limitations as to way is >allowable. Nice job on skirting the issue. Right. And all of those would land you in a courtroom if you did them to another adult. Or a child other than your own. Quote The point of which is that we do NOT assume children have the same rights as adults, and they have fewer and fewer rights the younger they are. But they do have the same basic protections! Quote And that is exactly the point - fetuses do not have the same rights as adults. My point exactly, fetuses should have some of the same protections as children. Quote Quote While our laws do grant a certain latitude (which seems to be shrinking) for parents to discipline their children, the do not permit parents to actually harm their children. How many parents are in jail for circumcising their boys? Obtuse analogies aren't worth countering. This one's right up their with cabbies being forced to allow explosives in their cab. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #177 June 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhy do you continue NOT to recognize that I believe the choice of the woman and man is made prior to conception and that I believe the right to life of the fetus trumps the choice of the woman. If this is your personal view that you don't feel needs to be legislated into law for all to follow, then I'm sorry for misunderstanding you. But we have a serious case of conflicting views if you feel these views of yours should be passed as laws for all to follow. I have already stated but will state again. I am Anti-Abortion but Pro-Choice. I believe we all agree (Catholics not included) that birth control prior to conception is right. I believe we all agree (Catholics included) that killing after birth is wrong. The question is where do we draw the line after conception but prior to birth. I would prefer to give everyone as much information and resources as possible so that the line is drawn at conception (with a few exceptions) as I believe it should be. I believe that when creating legislation in gray areas the legislation should be be closer to what is wrong than what is right (to maximize personal choice). Abortion is a gray area and thus I believe the legislation should be more towards what is wrong. I think the confusion is between what I believe and what I am willing to accept (compromise). Edit: I do not agree with the current legislation because it gives all the choices to the mother and none of the choices to the father."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #178 June 22, 2007 Quote I believe we all agree (Catholics not included) that birth control prior to conception is right. Its not just catholics.. many groups of fundamentalists do not want theri members or their children having access to birth control education let alone birth control in any form other than abstinence. If a young woman even considers sex outside of marriage she is a harlot.... what about the boys???? What are they if they have pre-marital sex.? The bottom line.. is if these groups keep their young ignorant of how to prevent pregnancy... then they can call them evil sinners when nature takes its course and the flesh is weak. They truely believe if there is sex education... then the young people will want to put that education to use.... so they end up doing what comes natural without and form of sex ed other than sex is dirty and sinful so you must abstain until after the pastor or priest marries you then it becomes a hallowed sacrement Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #179 June 22, 2007 QuoteAre you saying that you don't have an opinion I've already stated my opinion about abortion. I think it's a bad thing, but I wouldn't vote to make it illegal because there are too many situations where it is probably the best option. QuoteIf society decided that when you decide to retire, that you are no longer a productive member of society, then it's time for you to go, you'd give it a thumbs up? Well, I am a member of society, so I would at least have some say in the matter. If there were good reasons for this decision, then I might agree with it, or more likely I'd try to think of a better solution. I do not like the current situation with abortion, but I have not been able to think of a better solution than what we have right now. Nor have I heard a better solution from anyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #180 June 22, 2007 QuoteIf society decided that when you decide to retire, that you are no longer a productive member of society, then it's time for you to go, you'd give it a thumbs up? RUN LOGAN ..RUN Every sperm is sacred, Every sperm is great. If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #181 June 22, 2007 Quote Quote I believe we all agree (Catholics not included) that birth control prior to conception is right. Its not just catholics.. many groups of fundamentalists do not want theri members or their children having access to birth control education let alone birth control in any form other than abstinence. If a young woman even considers sex outside of marriage she is a harlot.... what about the boys???? What are they if they have pre-marital sex.? The bottom line.. is if these groups keep their young ignorant of how to prevent pregnancy... then they can call them evil sinners when nature takes its course and the flesh is weak. They truely believe if there is sex education... then the young people will want to put that education to use.... so they end up doing what comes natural without and form of sex ed other than sex is dirty and sinful so you must abstain until after the pastor or priest marries you then it becomes a hallowed sacrement Sometimes I find it very hard to understand you, were did all this anger come from. You seem to have a great deal of intollerance for people of faith. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #182 June 22, 2007 QuoteEdit: I do not agree with the current legislation because it gives all the choices to the mother and none of the choices to the father. It would be nice to see men better protected in the courts when it comes to child custody and child support payments (there men seem to get a raw deal). But until men start doing what Arnold did in Hollywood (get pregnant) it is not our bodies and we should not be telling our female counterparts what they should and shouldn't be doing with their lives. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #183 June 22, 2007 >Or a child other than your own. Correct! >But they do have the same basic protections! Nope. See above for a list. >My point exactly, fetuses should have some of the same protections as children. Children do not have the same rights as adults; fetuses do not have the same rights as children. >Obtuse analogies aren't worth countering. So if someone held you down and cut the tip of your penis off (because of his religion, of course) no crime has been committed? Parents can circumcise their boys. They can agree to risky medical procedures for them. They can decide to separate conjoined twins, even if the twins get along great, and even if it puts them at serious risk of death. Claiming that "they have the same rights as adults" is absurd. They don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #184 June 22, 2007 QuoteSometimes I find it very hard to understand you, were did all this anger come from. You seem to have a great deal of intollerance for people of faith. Sometimes I find it very hard to understand you, were did all this anger come from. You seem to have a great deal of support for ANYTHING people of faith wish to perpetrate on others. In my case is a great degree of skepticism with organized religions teaching DOGMA instead of what Christ taught.....I guess I did learn something in those 10 years in Catholic and Lutheran private school.... how much intolerance they had for anyone not following THEIR PARTICULAR BRAND of DOGMA. Every sperm is sacred, Every sperm is great. If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate. Michael Palin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #185 June 22, 2007 Quotehow much intolerance they had for anyone not following THEIR PARTICULAR BRAND of DOGMA. Quite the telling point, there...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #186 June 22, 2007 QuoteQuotehow much intolerance they had for anyone not following THEIR PARTICULAR BRAND of DOGMA. Quite the telling point, there... Quiet you. Go buy yourself a Prius and maybe we'll let you talk. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #187 June 22, 2007 Quote Quote Quote how much intolerance they had for anyone not following THEIR PARTICULAR BRAND of DOGMA. Quite the telling point, there... Quiet you. Go buy yourself a Prius and maybe we'll let you talk. Sorry... I'll go do my 10 "Hail Greenpeace" now, sorry, sorry..... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #188 June 22, 2007 QuoteQuite the telling point, there... 'I certainly thought so... especially after 5 years in a Catholic Parish School and then going to a Luthern School and being subjected to LOTS of comments about following PAPIST ideology. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeadCone 0 #189 June 25, 2007 QuoteThe thing is, in court, the defense doesn't have to prove the defendant is innocent, and frequently they don't. Reasonable doubt is enough. The vast majority of not guilty verdicts come from not enough evidence or not good enough evidence, not proof of innocence evidence. If there's proof of innocence (DNA says they've got the wrong guy, for example), most of the time it doesn't even get to trial. The problem here is that even if this guy is proven innocent by DNA, the woman still could have been raped, but misidentified her attacker. Eyewitness accounts are about the least reliable evidence out there, because the brain easily tricks us into seeing what isn't there or remembering things we never saw. This falls under there being no proof one way or the other so, with respect to the abortion she already had (because all she has to say is that she was raped and she gets it), the abortion was legal. QuoteMany rape victims don't speak up, for various reasons. Some women don't want to explain to their boss that they need time off work to go testify at the trial of the man who raped her. Others don't want friends and family to look at them differently and choose to confide in counselors instead. However, from what I've seen, the lack of reporting is mainly because of the hell they'd have to go through in court. Imagine, sitting in the same room with the person who was responsible for tearing your life apart, the person whose face haunts your nightmares, the memory of their voice makes you sleep with all the lights on... Imagine facing that person in court and having your personal, private life completely laid open for the court records. Imagine pictures of your body being handed to the jury so they can see the bruises and tearing and blood. Imagine having to explain to a defense lawyer that no, the sex wasn't consensual, reliving every detail as you describe exactly what happened right down to what got stuck in where, and keep your nerve and not completely have a break-down in front of twelve strangers who are going to decide the rest of your life and his. Think about that really hard, and you might have some inkling of why a victim wouldn't speak out. Think that doesn't happen? It does. I've seen it. More than once. And then think about whether you really, truly want to force her to go through all that just so she can terminate the pregnancy he left her with and try to move on with her life. I don't know how to make a rape trial go easier for a woman who was actually raped without taking away rights for an innocent defendant. What this shows is that each person considering the topic of abortion (and whether they would vote for or against any particular abortion related law) needs to weight the impact of the trial on the woman versus the abortion itself. Personally, I recognize there's difference between the initial stages of pregnancy where it's basically just a blob of cells versus the later stages where it's really no different than a birthed baby versus the transition in-between. While I don't like the decision to have an abortion at any stage, I would probably be in favor of a law that kept abortion legal during the early stages, but made it illegal (with exceptions) during the later stages with the cut-off point somewhere in the transition. As for the exceptions go, I'm actually on the fence on whether or not I'd really support allowing one for rape at the later stages but then again they are really rare and almost never done. --Head-- Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety! http://www.citizensunitednegatingtechnology.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #190 June 25, 2007 Quote >But they do have the same basic protections! Nope. See above for a list. >My point exactly, fetuses should have some of the same protections as children. Children do not have the same rights as adults; fetuses do not have the same rights as children. That battle has already been decided. A fetus is a human, viable or not, with rights as one. You kill a fetus under circumstances other than legal abortion (wtf is that?), you get charged with murder. Case in point: Person murders pregnant woman. Fetus dies. Person charged with two counts of murder.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #191 June 25, 2007 I'm with Amazon on the abortion. Woman's decision. (It would be nice to include the man in that decision but who the hell are we other than simple sperm donors). Government stay out of it. Period. Capital punishment? Fuck no. Until the justice system cleans itself up and wipes out all those government-sponsored prosecution assholes trying to get their conviction numbers up. NO MORE KILLING OF THE INNOCENT. You're living in a fantasy world if you think the American justice system is about Truth OR Justice. Justice is blind so she doesn't have to see all the sneaky, underhanded, twist-the-truth, power-mad bullshit going on.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
