"It's her body."

[PLFXpert 0]

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It would have been a relatively short, boring thread if we just simply answered the question with a yes or no. No?

It would be a long, equally boring thread if the basic rules of debate are ignored and terms are used incorrectly.

My point is not to argue when & what circumstances, only for some to concede if they would support abortion in any circumstance, they should not consider themselves "pro-life".

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[billvon 3,068]

>if we could agree on when the baby is viable we could agree up to when an abortion should be legal

Most premature baby that survived was 21 weeks. 25 weeks would be a more reasonable limit. Before 23-25 weeks, many doctors suggest withholding neonatal care because the odds of survival with any sort of quality of life are low.

[NCclimber 0]

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> I just believe that the 'life of the mother' argument, which seems to
>be the first one presented by the pro-choice crowd, is really a bogus
>argument, especially if the child has already reached the point of viability.

How about life of the child? Is a multifetal reduction of two out of four fetuses acceptable if it will give the other two fetuses a better chance of life?

How often are multifetal reductions are done after the point of viability has been reached?

[freeflybella 0]

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The only thing that tends to bother me is the assumption of either side that the opposite side must be cold & cruel. And the whole tunnel vision thing.

Tunnel vision for sure.

Abortion is outlawed = crime, homelessness rates go up = society at large suffers/pays.

Show me a country that cares for ALL it's unwanted, derelict citizens and I'll consider the life of a fetus over the choice of the parents.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[billvon 3,068]

>How often are multifetal reductions are done after the point of viability has
>been reached?

Less often, but they are done well into the second trimester, since some people do not receive prompt prenatal care/monitoring. Are these procedures acceptable?

[PLFXpert 0]

And sometimes, if not often, it's b/c I'm considering the fetus I would support an abortion.

Crazy, I know!

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[idrankwhat 0]

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But were not talking equal rights. Presently the unborn child has few, if any, rights.

As it should be. What list of rights should it have?

The right not to indiscriminately terminated.

Abortions are not indiscriminate by any stretch of the definition.

[lawrocket 3]

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Where would you stand if your 15 yr. old daughter presented you with that argument? Whether you have one or not, I don't know.

This is my main problem with abortion laws. With the exception of abortion laws, a minor cannot receive non-emergency medical treatment without the consent of a parent or guardian. You can't even pierce ears or give aspirin to a minor without parental consent.

Children do NOT have the right to do with their bodies as they wish. Adults SHOULD. Which shows that this stuff is less about "a woman's body" than it is about something else.

Frankly, I wish both sides would be more honest and do more things to prevent it. If the "Pro-Choice" crowd would stop saying that these fetuses are nothing more than a mass of cells no different from a tumor then I'd have more respect for them. If the "Pro-Life" crowd would do other things, i.e., take steps to free up adoption laws, etc., then I'd have more respect for them.

This whole abortion debate would probably not even exist in a freer society. Neither abortion nor teenage pregnancy would not be a "societal problem" if not for socialism. Much like riding a motorcycle without a helment is a problem of socialism - it wouldn't cost society much at all if the motorcycle rider wasn't subsidized for his hospital stay.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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This whole abortion debate would probably not even exist in a freer society. Neither abortion nor teenage pregnancy would not be a "societal problem" if not for socialism. Much like riding a motorcycle without a helment is a problem of socialism - it wouldn't cost society much at all if the motorcycle rider wasn't subsidized for his hospital stay.

I can see where you are coming from in terms of your motorcycle argument when it relates to socialism, but I am at a loss when it comes to how teenage pregnancy is related to socialism? Oh and for the record this pro-choicer can't stand socialists.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Nightingale 0]

The thing about parental consent laws for teen abortion is that, just like the laws against teen ear piercing without consent, they don't work.

If a teen wants their ears pierced, they'll either:
a. ask their mom/dad
b. shop around until they find an unscrupulous piercer who doesn't ask for ID
c. get a fake ID.

If a teen wants an abortion, they'll either:
a. ask their mom/dad
b. shop around until they find an unscrupulous abortionist who doesn't ask for ID
c. get a fake ID.

The big difference between piercing and abortion is that a badly performed abortion is usually a heck of a lot more serious than a bad ear piercing.

If a teen can't go to their parents and say "Mom, dad, I'm pregnant, help!" at that point, the parents have already screwed up and lines of communication have completely broken down.

Most kids, if they find themselves pregnant, are going to run to mom and dad, hoping to be told what to do. They're scared and confused, and want mommy and daddy. If the kid genuinely feels that they can't go to mom or dad, I'd rather they go to a good clinic or hospital for an abortion rather than some hack with a coat-hanger. Leaving a pregnant teen with the options of a back-alley abortion or facing parents who may force her to carry the child is really not a good situation. In this age of information, a teenager can find out how to perform a coathanger abortion just using google. I don't want to see any kid get that desperate.

It's really a tough call. Ideally, I'd agree with you. Parents should have a say. However, a parent can make sure they have a say by talking to their child before it becomes an issue, letting the child know that they can come to the parent about absolutely anything, and then prove it by not over-reacting or going ballistic when the child does come to them voluntarily. Law or no law, kids with a good relationship with their parents will talk to them, and kids who don't trust their parents won't go to them and will explore other options.

[NCclimber 0]

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But were not talking equal rights. Presently the unborn child has few, if any, rights.

As it should be. What list of rights should it have?

The right not to indiscriminately terminated.

Abortions are not indiscriminate by any stretch of the definition.

Please elaborate.

[idrankwhat 0]

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As it should be. What list of rights should it have?

The right not to indiscriminately terminated.

Abortions are not indiscriminate by any stretch of the definition.

Please elaborate.

in·dis·crim·i·nate

ADJECTIVE: 1. Not making or based on careful distinctions; unselective: an indiscriminate shopper; indiscriminate taste in music. 2. Random; haphazard: indiscriminate violence; an indiscriminate assortment of used books for sale. 3. Confused; chaotic: the indiscriminate policies of the previous administration. 4. Unrestrained or wanton; profligate: indiscriminate spending.

I would not use any of those words to describe the decision to terminate a pregnancy. And I'd imagine that most of the women who have them wouldn't either. On the other hand, one could argue that those terms might apply to "collateral" terminations of life in a voluntary and arguably illegal nation building project.

[NCclimber 0]

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As it should be. What list of rights should it have?

The right not to indiscriminately terminated.

Abortions are not indiscriminate by any stretch of the definition.

Please elaborate.

in·dis·crim·i·nate

ADJECTIVE: 1. Not making or based on careful distinctions; unselective: an indiscriminate shopper; indiscriminate taste in music. 2. Random; haphazard: indiscriminate violence; an indiscriminate assortment of used books for sale. 3. Confused; chaotic: the indiscriminate policies of the previous administration. 4. Unrestrained or wanton; profligate: indiscriminate spending.

I would not use any of those words to describe the decision to terminate a pregnancy. And I'd imagine that most of the women who have them wouldn't either. On the other hand, one could argue that those terms might apply to "collateral" terminations of life in a voluntary and arguably illegal nation building project.

What physical distinctions separate fetuses that will be aborted from those that will not be aborted?

[billvon 3,068]

>What physical distinctions separate fetuses that will be aborted from those that will not be aborted?

The decisions made by their life support system. (Nothing in the definition said anything about "physical.")

[idrankwhat 0]

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What physical distinctions separate fetuses that will be aborted from those that will not be aborted?

I don't know. Abortion conditions/circumstances vary. And I'm not the one to ask. I think I'll leave that to the Dr and the patient. Wacky idea, I know.

[NCclimber 0]

Okay. Now look at it from the POV of the fetus.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Okay. Now look at it from the POV of the fetus.

When it's mine or my wife's, I will. In the meantime I'm going to concern myself with my government's bad habit of taking innocent lives of people who are born, weaned, walking, playing, working, talking and learning but who just happen to live over top of our preferred energy source.

[NCclimber 0]

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Okay. Now look at it from the POV of the fetus.

When it's mine or my wife's, I will. In the meantime I'm going to concern myself with my government's bad habit of taking innocent lives of people who are born, weaned, walking, playing, working, talking and learning but who just happen to live over top of our preferred energy source.

You mean this?

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Various studies on health effects, including a 2002 study conducted by the University of Pittsburgh, have determined the average radiation dose to individuals near Three Mile Island at the time of the meltdown was about 1 millirem - much less than the average, annual, natural background dose for residents of the central Pennsylvania region. Twenty-five years later, there has been no significant rise in cancer deaths among residents living near the Three Mile Island site. A new analysis of health statistics in the region conducted by the Radiation and Public Health Project has, however, found that death rates for infants, children, and the elderly soared in the first two years after the Three Mile Island accident in Dauphin and surrounding counties.

[kelpdiver 2]

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This whole abortion debate would probably not even exist in a freer society. Neither abortion nor teenage pregnancy would not be a "societal problem" if not for socialism. Much like riding a motorcycle without a helment is a problem of socialism - it wouldn't cost society much at all if the motorcycle rider wasn't subsidized for his hospital stay.

Society benefits from the unhelmeted, uninsured motorcyclists - they cost less to care for than the helmeted one, the ones more likely to survive. So lose this silly argument. The cost to society of uninsured motorists getting hurt is really a different subject alltogether.

[kelpdiver 2]

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They are pro-life because they want to give rights to an unborn child

All the while taking away the rights of the woman.

You know... the slave owners of the 1800s felt the same way about their rights.

oh, the irony.

The slave owners in this context are the men trying to legislate away women's rights. Trying to play doctor with a law degree (or less).

[kelpdiver 2]

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If a woman has carried up to the point of viability, she has had plenty of time to think about the situation.

That's news to my sister. She had perhaps a month. Perhaps not even a week, if we are to take your definition of viability as medical truth.

[idrankwhat 0]

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When it's mine or my wife's, I will. In the meantime I'm going to concern myself with my government's bad habit of taking innocent lives of people who are born, weaned, walking, playing, working, talking and learning but who just happen to live over top of our preferred energy source.

You mean this?

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Various studies on health effects, including a 2002 study conducted by the University of Pittsburgh, have determined the average radiation dose to individuals near Three Mile Island at the time of the meltdown was about 1 millirem - much less than the average, annual, natural background dose for residents of the central Pennsylvania region. Twenty-five years later, there has been no significant rise in cancer deaths among residents living near the Three Mile Island site. A new analysis of health statistics in the region conducted by the Radiation and Public Health Project has, however, found that death rates for infants, children, and the elderly soared in the first two years after the Three Mile Island accident in Dauphin and surrounding counties.

I'm confused. I thought that petroleum was our preferred energy source. So THAT's why Ford is making the "Fusion". Heck, I'll drive one. It would be the bomb!
Also, did you highlight the wrong sentence?

[pmw515 0]

>> as long as she takes responsibility for her actions.

I agree with that.

[rehmwa 2]

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Okay. Now look at it from the POV of the fetus.

When it's mine or my wife, I will.

you haven't been paying attention. It's none of your business - only your wife/servant/sexslave's's

not only can she make the decision without you knowing, she is encouraged to for the sake of self determination

How can you sit and effectively enslave her like 'man' has been doing to 'woman' over the last few millenium?

Take off the chains, dude, evolve, kum bi ya, kum bi ya, hmmmmmmmm

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[lawrocket 3]

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The thing about parental consent laws for teen abortion is that, just like the laws against teen ear piercing without consent, they don't work.

If a teen wants their ears pierced, they'll either:
a. ask their mom/dad
b. shop around until they find an unscrupulous piercer who doesn't ask for ID
c. get a fake ID.

If a teen wants an abortion, they'll either:
a. ask their mom/dad
b. shop around until they find an unscrupulous abortionist who doesn't ask for ID
c. get a fake ID.

And you left out the usual option - find another adult to pose as the father or mother to sign off on it. But I digress...

Qhat is done about these things? You put the unscrupulous piercer/abortionist out of work and put the fake ID makers out of work.

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The big difference between piercing and abortion is that a badly performed abortion is usually a heck of a lot more serious than a bad ear piercing.

Yeah. No kidding. Complications arise from abortions performed by licensed and highly qualified doctors, too - the same thing as with ANY medical procedure. This is why parents must give consent.

What happens if the child develops an infection three days later? Who provides post-op care for the child?

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Leaving a pregnant teen with the options of a back-alley abortion or facing parents who may force her to carry the child is really not a good situation. In this age of information, a teenager can find out how to perform a coathanger abortion just using google. I don't want to see any kid get that desperate.

The let the kid get a court order authorizing the procedure. A kid who can google a coathanger abortion can also happen upon Planned Parenthood, who can provide assistance in getting the order.

Choices as to surgical procedures should not be the province of the child's decision. That's what guardians are for. That's why a parent must consent to ANY procedure.

A parent can instruct a doctor not to provide a transfusion to his/her child based on the belief as Jehovah's witness. Courts, howver, will order them to a minor child on motion of the state on the basis that the state has rights as parens patriae. Even if the kid wants a transfusion, the parents can say no unless the kid is emancipated or a self-sufficient minor over the age of 15 (this is California law).

Oh, yes, and the courts have generally recognized that a doctor has a right in emergency situations (i.e., life or death) to treat a minor over the objections of a parent.

There is no reason why the issue of parental consent for an abortion should be treated any differently than parental consent for treatment of acne, or treatment of venereal disease, or treatment of lupus, or treatment for a heart defect, or treatment for ADHD, or treatment for a headache.

My wife is hotter than your wife.