SiCKO - What are your thoughts on Michael Moore's new film?

[akarunway 1]

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So what? He's an ARTIST! He owes nothing more to the truth than Shakespeare or any other artist.

If he's going to accept Oscars for "documentary filmmaking," he most certainly does owe something to the truth -- namely, telling it.

There are websites galore that detail very succinctly the LIES he told in "Bowling for Columbine." Anyone who could watch that movie, then read the easy refutations of the many lies and distortions he told in it, and then wish to watch more of his garbage deserves to have his head full of crap, in my opinion.

It's sort of like when Dateline faked those explosive gas tanks on the pickup trucks. They should have canceled the show and fired everyone involved in making up that fraud. Instead, because people are willing to continue to pay attention to liars, it's still on the air. But in my view, if you purport to be telling facts, and you are shown to be out-and-out lying, you've blown your ONE chance, and I will never listen to you again.

So it goes with MM, for me.

Damn. Sounds just like the Bush administration.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[birdlike 0]

Someone always has to turn stuff into a diatribe on that evil Bush administration.

Haven't we determined that to be really pathetic by now? Weren't we talking about Michael Moore, not GWBush?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[akarunway 1]

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Someone always has to turn stuff into a diatribe on that evil Bush administration.

Haven't we determined that to be really pathetic by now? Weren't we talking about Michael Moore, not GWBush?

Truth hurts eh?

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[freethefly 6]

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Someone always has to turn stuff into a diatribe on that evil Bush administration.

Haven't we determined that GW Bush to be really pathetic by now? Weren't we talking about Michael Moore, not GWBush?

There, fixed it for you.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[tbrown 26]

I don't have a problem with the issues Moore addresses so much as the way he addresses them and the guy himself. Michael Moore is a very obnoxious in your face kind of person who attacks people with carefully constructed questions that leave his victims with a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" choice for how they might answer. His approach is very childish. He reminds me of the big ugly nerd in jr. high who would throw a stink bomb into the girls locker room in hopes of flushing out a bevy of naked screaming girls into the hallway.

It's unfortunate that he feels everything he does has to make noise or stink, because I think he degrades the debate over some very serious issues. I have no plans to see "Sicko", though I think the current state of health care and lack of health insurance is a serious issue. From what I hear, Moore seems to be suggesting that Cuba is a better place to live, with better health care than the U.S. I don't believe that for a moment and it degraqdes the debate because now I have to defend my own views by dissavowing Michael Moore any time I get onto the topic.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[DSE 5]

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From what I hear, Moore seems to be suggesting that Cuba is a better place to live, with better health care than the U.S. I don't believe that for a moment and it degraqdes the debate because now I have to defend my own views by dissavowing Michael Moore any time I get onto the topic.

Therein lies the problem; "from what you hear."
As said *several* times, I don't agree with some of what Moore does. But he's doing something. He takes his art to a new level. Some of it a lower level, some of it higher. But I digress.
One scene ONE, demonstrates that the people made ill from byproducts of the 9/11 attacks could get (and did receive) better health care from a virtual third-world country than their own country was providing. By going to an extreme in that one case, he gets your attention right off.
>Using 9/11 (easy topic to elicit a visceral response
>Going to Cuba (the evil empire we're not allowed to mention in the US)
>Showing US citizens receiving better attention in the evil empire....
Moore immediately grabs us by the emotional gonads and squeezes. He makes the audience quit thinking about the bullshit review they read, the tall guy sitting in front of them, the ridiculous cost of a Coke in the lobby, or the jerk in the parking lot. He forces you to focus on the message.
But it's one scene in the movie that critics seem to grab on to, because it is exceptionally emotional, seeing American heros receiving better health care in Cuba than they could obtain here.
At no time does he intimate that Cuba, Canada, or anywhere else in the world is a better place to live. He merely points out how pathetic our healthcare system is.
A woman died on a hospital floor last week in LA after going to the hospital three times, even after people in the hospital called 911 to get her help. How more pathetic that that does it get? Moore might use extremes to illustrate his position, but so did Dante, Freud, Love American Style, and Osama bin Laden. All have gotten our attentions, and all resulted in social change, for the better.

[Butters 0]

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A person makes a decision based on what they know. A person knows more as they age. It is only natural that someone will remember a decision they made in their past that they would change given knowledge they acquired after that decision.

And that is... Time = Experience = Wisdom.
Your learning more everyday, young grasshopper
Back in the 80's, I went to work on the railroad. We lived in the railcar that we worked testing rail. Sure, I learned a few things from those in my own age group but, the real learning came from the guys who have been rolling down the rails for 30+ years and have seen and encountered the things that I have yet to see or encountered. Their advise always trumped the advise of someone with just a few years on the rails. It is far wiser to take the advise of those who have traveled around the block than those who have only taken a few steps.

Of course I learn more everyday ... but from whom. If you need to know about rolling down the rails then ask the person with 30+ years rolling down the rails. However, if you need to know about rocket science, it is probably better to ask the person with 1+ years building rockets then the person with 30+ years rolling down the rails with 0 years building rockets.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[freethefly 6]

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However, if you need to know about rocket science, it is probably better to ask the person with 1+ years building rockets then the person with 30+ years rolling down the rails with 0 years building rockets

I wouldn't go to someone with only one year experience if I were to want to know about building rockets. I would go to a professor who has the years of knowledge behind him or her.
Building rockets is serious business.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Butters 0]

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Population of USA:
~302,500,000

Population of Cuba:
~11,268,000

How many medical advances are made in the USA and used in Cuba? How many medical advances are made in Cuba and used in the USA? What type of government does the USA have? How much taxes do USA citizens pays? What type of government does Cuba have? How much taxes do Cuba citizens pay? What type of economy does the USA have? What type of economy does Cuba have? ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[DSE 5]

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Population of USA:
~302,500,000

Population of Cuba:
~11,268,000

How many medical advances are made in the USA and used in Cuba? How many medical advances are made in Cuba and used in the USA? What type of government does the USA have? How much taxes do USA citizens pays? What type of government does Cuba have? How much taxes do Cuba citizens pay? What type of economy does the USA have? What type of economy does Cuba have? ...

You're kidding, yes?

[pirana 0]

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Do yourself a favor and purchase a health plan. It will only cost you but a few dollars a month and will save your ass and any savings that you may have.
I wish I had.

Just in case this thread has gotten people thinking about actually getting covered, there is a new generation of plans out there specifically aimed at the "young & healthy" market.

As I mentioned, rules are state-by-state, and not all permit this type of plan but, . . . there are now some high-deductible low-premium plans out there that basically protect you from catastrophic loss. The better ones provide 100% coverage for an annual physical and associated screenings and labs, a reasonable drug copay (often free for generics), and 100% coverage to a max of usually $5 million - you just have to foot the bill for the 1st $5K each year.

So you pay about $100 per month for an annual physical, reasonable drug fees, and coverage for other stuff if you have a disaster that goes over $5K. And most carriers that offer such plans will set you up with a tax-exempt health savings account that you can use to save toward the $5K. And the days of use-it-or-lose-it are over. The cash rolls forward every year.

And I'm not in sales. And I will not start any more sentences with and, . . . this post.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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>We don't claim to be the party of warm, fuzzy, love and compassion, while
>we are spewing hate and vitriol out of the other side of our mouths.

Well, at least the hate and vitriol remains undiluted then!

Usually the highly polarized game of tag bugs me a bit, but I'm liking it in this thread. Very entertaining.

Anybody here read O'Rourke's Republican Party Reptile, or Parliament of Whores. I think you'd like it.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Butters 0]

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Population of USA:
~302,500,000

Population of Cuba:
~11,268,000

How many medical advances are made in the USA and used in Cuba? How many medical advances are made in Cuba and used in the USA? What type of government does the USA have? How much taxes do USA citizens pays? What type of government does Cuba have? How much taxes do Cuba citizens pay? What type of economy does the USA have? What type of economy does Cuba have? ...

You're kidding, yes?

No. I'm pointing out a few of the differences between the USA and Cuba which make comparing the healthcare system of the USA and Cuba like comparing apples and orangutan.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pirana 0]

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“I am older than you, I have more life experiences than you, I know more about these things than you do”. How could I argue with the guy?

There are plenty of smart people who are young and dumb people who are old.

Yes, but experience/wisdom come with time.

For instance, in combat I would take the advice of a war veteran Sergeant over a noob Ensign any day.

I would add . . . "If you seek, observe, and assimilate." Wisdom coming with time that is. Some people reject the opportunity to learn. They prefer to propogate ignorance. What's the saying?

Some people wouldn't know knowledge if they tripped over it. Many prove it so by picking themselves up, dusting off, and carrying on as if nothing happened.

Wisdom comes with age, and effort.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[DSE 5]

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Population of USA:
~302,500,000

Population of Cuba:
~11,268,000

How many medical advances are made in the USA and used in Cuba? How many medical advances are made in Cuba and used in the USA? What type of government does the USA have? How much taxes do USA citizens pays? What type of government does Cuba have? How much taxes do Cuba citizens pay? What type of economy does the USA have? What type of economy does Cuba have? ...

You're kidding, yes?

No. I'm pointing out a few of the differences between the USA and Cuba which make comparing the healthcare system of the USA and Cuba like comparing apples and orangutan.

I know it's hard for the average American to grasp, particularly in these times of religious 'me-ism' driving our social system, but...
People die in Cuba, Canada, Australia, Sweden, and other managed health care societies. But I'll bet you've not seen a situation in those places where someone has visited the ER three times in two days, that died on the floor of the ER waiting room after several people begged Dr's/nurses to care for her, and at least five un-related people called 911 from the hospital waiting area.
I know....hard to accept in the delusion of a superior America...but people really do die young here, too.
Moore's point is primarily "Why?"


BTW, I don't have a dog in this hunt; my healthcare is managed quite nicely by the US government in addition to an employee health care plan. For myself, unless something drastically changes, I really don't care. But I do feel people are entitled to be cared for if their health is challenged through circumstances they cannot control or are basic social needs.

[juanesky 0]

And you are sure about that? Ever been in Cuba? sounds like you have. I have been there 2 times, as a tourist, and trust me, the press in that country is controlled. You will never hear any negative comment on that Island.

That is why there are so many americans risking their lives on rafts or whatever they may float in, to get there every year.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[pirana 0]

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LMAO ... I can only speak for my personal experiences. But I know that when I look back to my young, invincible and know it all years ... I knew Jack.

That is probably one of the likeliest of universal truths. I remember a few times looking back and thinking "Now I've REALLY got it figured out." Only to find a few years later it was just another step.

Another close to universal is convincing young people of the potential growth in front of them. I have never met anyone in their teens, and darn few in their 20's that can comprehend it. And you will not convince them of that either, (that at their age it is not comprehensible). There is strong physical evidence for this too. The human brain is not even fully hardwired until the teens at least.

Anyway, I've done a lot of volunteer work with kids, including teens. The part I enjoy the most is their reactions when I tell them these things. It is so difficult for them to get a handle on it, and I do really appreciate those that try. Most are in some state of denial or another though because they simply can not fathom the breadth and depth of experiences yet to come.

BTW, someone mentioned people who only learn by experience. I believe that this topic is one that almost noone learns any other way than by experience. Those most open to the idea laugh and joke and engage on the topic without being adversarial. The ones that argue with you about it have the most ground to make up, and may never grow up. They are the ones that will go thru life arguing with everybody about everything and wondering why they have such a hard time building functional and productive relationships.

In coaching some of my kids' sports teams I am getting to watch several kids other than my own over many years. I really enjoy watching their attitudes and perspectives change over time; and can't wait to see how our conversations go 10 or 20 years from now.

I'm not trying to be preachy about it, just trying to put it in context so as to try to make sense of it. It reminds me very much of studying physics and astronomy. You get your first bites of knowledge and are amazed at what is out there without really being able to yet grasp the levels and layers beyond. Then you learn more and think you have it handled, again without even being able to conceive of the stuff yet to come.

Knowledge, functional relationships, wisdom; they all kinda work the same.

don b - dispensing wisdom wherever the truth is not suppressed.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Butters 0]

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But I'll bet you've not seen a situation in those places where someone has visited the ER three times in two days, that died on the floor of the ER waiting room after several people begged Dr's/nurses to care for her, and at least five un-related people called 911 from the hospital waiting area.

One occurrence ... and you can't prove that it hasn't, isn't, and won't happen in any other country.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pirana 0]

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I can only speak for my personal experiences. But I know that when I look back to my young, invincible and know it all years ... I knew Jack.

So, because you knew Jack, all younger people know Jack?

In a word - YES.

Unless they somehow jammed an incredible amount of life into an incredibly short timeframe - and at a time when research has proven that assimilation of knowledge at that breadth and depth is not possible other than extremely rare cases.

Take the line of thought to an extreme. How much do you think a 10 year old knows? Very little of course. How about 12? 16? Where is the cutoff where a person is suddenly imparted with enough knowledge and wisdom where awareness and vision of the world is complete? Trick question of course because the answer is that it never is complete. Check with the average youngster though and you will find they start thinking this way in their mid-teens and most hang on to vestiges of such granduer until sometime in their 30's. Those who never let go are the ones that never actually grow up. They retain some rather childish characteristics their whole life; with the most obvious manifestations being the level of functionality in their relationships.

To steal at least part of a line:

The best place to learn is at the feet of an elder who is still in the learning game themself.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[NCclimber 0]

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I know it's hard for the average American to grasp, particularly in these times of religious 'me-ism' driving our social system, but...

Elitist condescencion noted.

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But I'll bet you've not seen a situation in those places where someone has visited the ER three times in two days, that died on the floor of the ER waiting room after several people begged Dr's/nurses to care for her, and at least five un-related people called 911 from the hospital waiting area.

And how many times have you witnessed the same in an American hospital?

[nathaniel 0]

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Just in case this thread has gotten people thinking about actually getting covered, there is a new generation of plans out there specifically aimed at the "young & healthy" market.

Therein lies the fatal flaw of "universal" healthcare in anything resembling our contemporary market. The young & healthy band together in special plans, more or less poached by the competition. In a free market, you cannot rely on the healthy to subsidize the sick. Insurance only works when, on average, everyone pays in more than they take out. It can't really help people who are both poor and sick, because the poor won't be able to afford the sky-high premiums for the coverages to treat their conditions.

Universal health care necessitates wealth redistribution, and the debate over universal health care should be couched in such terms. Some degree of wealth redistribution is entirely desirable and consistent with our culture and our history, but it's pointless to get up in arms on comparisons of health care between vastly different economies and ours. They aren't the same-- the needs, the resources, and the means are different.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[pirana 0]

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A person can have a little experience and a lot of wisdom.

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You can not have little experience and lots of wisdom.

Experience is part of the recipe for wisdom. (Included here is the experience of others taken in as reading and hearing stories - which are a learning experience themselves). Saying you can have lots of wisdom without lots of experience is like saying you can have lots of pancakes without ever having batter first.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

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[pirana 0]

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I'm sorry I brought up the experience thing.

No need to apologize. Very good fodder. I'll bet some of these ideas get a few people thinking.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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>Well, if the 55-year-old is under investigation by the SEC, and the
>25-year-old is not, then I'd probably go with the 25-year-old.

See? You can play the game too. But I know you see what I'm talking about.

To get people to stay on topic, and force them to see the rationale, you have to always preface with "All other things being equal."

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Butters 0]

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You can not have little experience and lots of wisdom.

Do you honestly believe that a person can not learn from the experience of others? It has been proven over and over again that a person can learn from the experiences of others and thus it is possible for a person to have a little experience but a lot of wisdom.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch