beowulf 1 #101 July 2, 2007 With out a true cease fire I don't see what either side can do to achieve peace. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #102 July 2, 2007 QuoteQuotePerhaps I'm wrong, but we've been going at it for a long time now, and it sure doesn't seem like you've had anything but a one way argument. Pot kettel kettle pot or something like that. Quaint expressions only work if you use them correctly. By the way, I think it applies to you much more than JohnRich. QuoteQuoteedit - you did respond about Egypt finding peace, but make the conclusion that it is a 'special case'. Instead of making fun or joking about it tell me why you think Egypt and Palestine are similar. Then when you replay I’ll read it think about and see if you have any good points or if they are all good. Then I will right back. That’s the way it should work. OK, similarities between Egypt and Palestine vs Israel: Both have repeatedly attacked Israel. Egypt used shipping blockades, military assaults, and terrorist attacks staged from the Sinai. Also, Israel occupied some Egyptian land after winning a war, but they were willing to give it back. Israel withdrew to the pre-1967 border, giving up military bases, settlements, roads and other infrastructure as well as the Sinai oil fields. Is that enough for you? QuoteSo instead of hinting at something speak up man. I have no problem speaking up. When you make inflammatory assertions that are untrue, which happens all too often, I counter with real historical information to set the record straight. I understand that it is irritating to be shown that you're wrong.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #103 July 2, 2007 QuoteWith out a true cease fire I don't see what either side can do to achieve peace. In a war, peace is sometimes had by winning the war instead of stopping it before one side loses. This usually means the war continues at full force until one side surrenders. That is war, it is hell.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #104 July 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteWith out a true cease fire I don't see what either side can do to achieve peace. In a war, peace is sometimes had by winning the war instead of stopping it before one side loses. This usually means the war continues at full force until one side surrenders. That is war, it is hell. Right but it doesn't look like either side is going to do what it takes to "win" the war the hard way. The Palestinians don't have what it takes to over run the Israelis and the Israelis won't do what it takes to over run the Palestinians. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #105 July 2, 2007 Quote Also, Israel occupied some Egyptian land after winning a war, but they were willing to give it back. Israel withdrew to the pre-1967 border, giving up military bases, settlements, roads and other infrastructure as well as the Sinai oil fields. Which is almost precisely what the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative (revived 2007) proposed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #106 July 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteI also didn't notice you calling for any war crimes trials for all the muslims who have slaughtered Israeli citizens. Shouldn't that work both ways? How would you like to punish a suicide bomber John? By killing him Dohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh For someone who claims to know so much about the situation in Israel, you should have known that there are more forms of killing being carried out against innocent Israeli civilians than just suicide bombs, which kill the guilty attacker in the process. For example, there are remotely-triggered bombs, rockets and mortars. In those cases, the terrorists don't usually die in the process of committing their atrocities. There are also the people behind the scenes who build the bombs and outfit the terrorists, and others who plan and fund the operations. What about all those war criminals? Shouldn't they be captured and put on trial? I don't see why you have such a hard time saying it: "All war criminals should be punished, not just Israeli war criminals." Go ahead and try it. See if you can make those words cross your lips. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #107 July 2, 2007 QuoteGrow up man... Your bullshit statements... I should just add you to my ignore list... You don’t even realize how slanted and blind you are... You are ignorant on the subject matter... Ahh, so that's going to be your tactic to avoid answering the tough questions when you're pinned to the wall with your faulty facts and logic. All I see you doing is ducking and running. QuoteInstead of spending time trashing the poster take that time and energy and research your Subject. Per the above, your latest favorite phrase: "pot kettle kettle pot". The questions for you are real simple. Just answer them honestly, with no more ducking and running: 1) Do you want all the Jews out of Israel? Yes or no? 2) Do you want war crimes trials for all those who have committed atrocities, on both sides of the conflict? Yes or no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #108 July 2, 2007 QuoteYes i agree Palestine needs a central strong government that has control. It can not have that if every time someone shoots a rocket the Israelis come in and bulldoze every ones home. Maybe Palestine should do something about the terrorists who are shooting off those rockets towards Israel, from the home sites of Palestinian families. Israel has the right to protect itself, and to eliminate locations used by the terrorists to attack them. The onus is on Palestine to stop the attacks. Then the Israeli response will be a moot point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #109 July 2, 2007 QuoteWe need UN troops covering the borders, so if and when something does go wrong and someone gets shot or killed. It is not added on as oh the fucking crazy Muslims or the evil Jews, but something equivalent to a police force. Oh, so now you want Israel to stay in place, and not run all the Jews out of the country. Make up your mind! And who would comprise these U.N. troops? You want Americans in the mix? First you complain about foreign countries meddling in the internal affairs of Arab nations, and now you want foreign countries meddling in the internal affairs of an Arab nation. Make up your mind! The U.N. was there during the latest conflict, over the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers. That didn't stop the muslims from lobbing their rockets into Israel. Do you want the U.N. troops to have the power to attack and kill muslims who refuse to cease-fire? Oh, and remember the 1983 Beirut bombing of the Marine barracks? Yeah, that was foreign troops trying to stop a Lebanese civil war. What was the muslim response? To kill the U.S. and French peacekeepers. Now I know you were born in Iran and you seem to think that makes your knowledge superior to everyone else here. But the fact is, you're too young to remember things like that 1983 incident very well. And you shouldn't dismiss the decades of reading and study that guys like me have done on the Middle East, since long before you were even born. Your comments here make it clear that your vision on this subject is not as great as you seem to think it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #110 July 3, 2007 Quote The onus is on Palestine to stop the attacks. Then the Israeli response will be a moot point. Why is the onus on the Palestinian's alone? Why do you give Israel a free pass to occupy land outside their borders, control all travel outside their borders, shoot anyone they want, imprison indefinitely any men, women and children they want with no charge, continue to steal land and build illegal settlements outside their borders, lob missiles at "suspected" terrorists and disregard any "collateral damage", control the money flowing in and out of Gaza, control the electrical power in Gaza, bulldoze homes and orchards of anyone they want, deny building permits to Palestinian residents of Israel and eventually take their land as well....the list goes on. And that's not even considering war crime activity like the cluster bombs and daily mock raid terrorizing of their neighbors. Everyone always says that Israel has a right to protect itself, why in the hell don't the Palestinian's have the same right? If I was going to place any responsibility I'd place it on the group with the most power to make something happen, and that's Israel and the US. The Arab Peace Initiative that was offered, which was looking for peace and security and recognition of Israel, is a good place to start. Israel and the US just need to set the negotiation table and try to get something started. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #111 July 3, 2007 QuoteQuote The onus is on Palestine to stop the attacks. Then the Israeli response will be a moot point. Why is the onus on the Palestinian's alone? Why do you give Israel a free pass to occupy land outside their borders, control all travel outside their borders, shoot anyone they want, imprison indefinitely any men, women and children they want with no charge, continue to steal land and build illegal settlements outside their borders, lob missiles at "suspected" terrorists and disregard any "collateral damage", control the money flowing in and out of Gaza, control the electrical power in Gaza, bulldoze homes and orchards of anyone they want, deny building permits to Palestinian residents of Israel and eventually take their land as well....the list goes on. And that's not even considering war crime activity like the cluster bombs and daily mock raid terrorizing of their neighbors. Everyone always says that Israel has a right to protect itself, why in the hell don't the Palestinian's have the same right? If I was going to place any responsibility I'd place it on the group with the most power to make something happen, and that's Israel and the US. The Arab Peace Initiative that was offered, which was looking for peace and security and recognition of Israel, is a good place to start. Israel and the US just need to set the negotiation table and try to get something started. It’s odd right. You have people so emotional about protecting life and freedom but have no issue or don’t even see anything wrong with what Israel is doing. I can’t comprehend how anyone can know the facts on both sides and still side with Israel, as you mentioned your not even really getting in to all the bad shit the Israelis have pulled. As someone else mentioned on here. The only people who think Israel has a leg to stand on are Jews, (most) Americans, and idiots.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #112 July 3, 2007 Ok BOTH of you ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION IF ISRAEL STOPPED RETALIATING FOR THE DAILY ATTACKS AND LAID DOWN THIER ARMS WOULD THE PALISTININIANS LIVE IN PEACE OR WOULD THE IMAMS AND MULLAHS CALL FOR PUTTING ALL OF THE JEWS TO DEATH BECAUSE THEY ARE NON-BELIEVERS AND WOULD NOT CONVERT TO ISLAM. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #113 July 3, 2007 QuoteThe only people who think Israel has a leg to stand on are Jews, (most) Americans, and idiots. Well, isn't this statement ironic, with it's stereotyping and bigotry against Jews and Americans, coming from the same person who has recently posted messages here speaking out against stereotyping and bigotry of muslims. Don't look now, but your bias is showing again... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #114 July 3, 2007 QuoteOk BOTH of you ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION IF ISRAEL STOPPED RETALIATING FOR THE DAILY ATTACKS AND LAID DOWN THIER ARMS WOULD THE PALISTININIANS LIVE IN PEACE OR WOULD THE IMAMS AND MULLAHS CALL FOR PUTTING ALL OF THE JEWS TO DEATH BECAUSE THEY ARE NON-BELIEVERS AND WOULD NOT CONVERT TO ISLAM. Bad question alert! People like Hannity, O'Reilly and Limbaugh ask questions worded like this. It's leading, loud, emotional, contains more commentary than question, only addresses part of a complex issue yet demands a yes or no answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #115 July 3, 2007 QuoteQuoteOk BOTH of you ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION IF ISRAEL STOPPED RETALIATING FOR THE DAILY ATTACKS AND LAID DOWN THIER ARMS WOULD THE PALISTININIANS LIVE IN PEACE OR WOULD THE IMAMS AND MULLAHS CALL FOR PUTTING ALL OF THE JEWS TO DEATH BECAUSE THEY ARE NON-BELIEVERS AND WOULD NOT CONVERT TO ISLAM. Bad question alert! People like Hannity, O'Reilly and Limbaugh ask questions worded like this. It's leading, loud, emotional, contains more commentary than question, only addresses part of a complex issue yet demands a yes or no answer. Sort of like your posts on the subject?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #116 July 3, 2007 QuoteBad question alert! People like Hannity, O'Reilly and Limbaugh ask questions worded like this. It's leading, loud, emotional, contains more commentary than question, only addresses part of a complex issue yet demands a yes or no answer. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sort of like your posts on the subject? No.. they do not want to utter "the truth" because the TRUTH is to ugly for them to wrap their minds around as good little liberals and do not want to believe their buddies would do such a horrible thing. I can answer for them.. the Islamic world would TRY to wipe Israel out.. and soon after the Israelies...will unleash nuclear devastation on Teheran..Damascus...Beruit...and with recent comments from our "Shia friends in Bahgdad" the major cities of Iraq as well as every major muslim city in the antagonist states would be vaporized. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #117 July 3, 2007 QuoteBad question alert! People like Hannity, O'Reilly and Limbaugh ask questions worded like this. It's leading, loud, emotional, contains more commentary than question, only addresses part of a complex issue yet demands a yes or no answer. Actually, Amazon has a fair question, but there's a twist: seems to me, if side A ceased hostilities, then side B would keep killing for as long as they felt they needed to. In order to "balance the debt of lives". Since both sides feel they are currently under the short end of the deal, it really doesn't matter which side you assign as side "A". The first side that quits will take another few rounds of attacks, then the rest of the world (with some stupid exceptions) would rally around them and knock loose the other side as hyper-vengeful savages. (this theory is also in absense from those around the world that take profit from the conflict and might keep adding wood to the fire in a stealthy way) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #118 July 3, 2007 Egypt and Israel found peace. I think that shows the Israelis are willing, as were the Egyptians.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #119 July 3, 2007 Quoteseems to me, if side A ceased hostilities, then side B would keep killing for as long as they felt they needed to. In order to "balance the debt of lives". Isn't that basically what happened fairly recently, during the last cease fire attempt? Hamas kept attacking after Israel stopped, as I recall...but I may be mis-remembering...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livetofall 0 #120 July 4, 2007 Wow, Darius, I havent bother looking on here becuase mostly rerun rehash bullshit, but this is something good you brought up. The hard part is looking at truths without getting an "anti-semetic" brand on thineself. There have been so many overlooked atrcities on the part of the Jews , but say a word and the holocaust moaning starts, and your a Nazi. I browsed through the replies and ofcourse I saw the good ole "islams will kill those who will not convert. That is but one part of the Koran. How about the TALMUD??????? "Every Gentile should be killed" hey? You see a chance for conversion there? "the Gentile are but cattle" oh thanks..moo, moo. But Darius you must expect the Palestinians desire for equality to be all in vain. IN America the media is all owned by Jews and will not cut down the motherland. I had to study on my owm to find outr the true damage bieng done. I never see articles on the boob tube about Israeli tanks mowing over farmland vilages and stuff, but the one moment a Palestenian gives his life in rebellion of the terror brought to his people "WHAM!!" Its on the news withing 15 minutes of happening. I am tired of of troops dying to fight Isreals war to rid the middle east of muslims. One must remember that AIPAC is so strong that millions of dollars lobby to kep us fueling Israel. And how come none of theie soldiers are over there fighting? Why? Get that idot Bush to send the Gentiles to fight. FACTS: 1/1000 of the poputlation is jewish 1/3 of all US foriegn aid goes to Israel Israel is the 16th wealthiest nation. I hate bringing this up but Osama even warned us before 911 supporters of Israel would be terrorized. We had out chance. We need to stop supporting Israel, they are racist, in fact they have a "jews only" immigration policy, yet the ADL forces it down our throat that we need to immigrate from 3rd wolrd countries turning out country into a welfare state. So, am I anti semetic? Not towards poeple in my country, but when I see a nation doing what they have cried about for 60 yrs,yes. I wont go into the fact of boyscouts that you cant get oxygen into a pit to burn stuff epecially things that are made of 95% water, that in a dry area, but whatever true and untrue about what happened to their people, why dues USA veto on crimes brough againgst them in UN, because they got this holocard...nope we are owned federal reserve style..but thats yet another topic. I am in no way saying I like the way Islamic people handle things, but if someone (say China and/or Hilary guncontrol) tireed to invade my country or take from me my rights iwould go dowm guns ablazing. Stop terrorism. Stop US $upport of Israel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #121 July 4, 2007 QuoteThe difference between the Israelis is that they simply were not there before 1948. There was no Israel. They are Invaders. and here we start with the lies again... if there were no "israelis" because there was no israel until 1948 then how can there be "palestinians" if there is no (and never has been) "palestine"? many many of the jews that "invaded" where refugees from Arab states that were kicked out with violence, living everything behind. QuoteTo understand why there might be a lot of people who hate us and not because we are free, but because us and our actions have caused a lot of misery in their lives. they hate "us" because they are brain washed by their leaders. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #122 July 4, 2007 QuoteEgypt and Israel found peace. I think that shows the Israelis are willing, as were the Egyptians. If you call assassinating your own leader "peace." (And people wonder why many Muslims choose to keep silent) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #123 July 5, 2007 Peace with Egypt has lasted, despite the extremists on both sides taking vengence on their own political leadership.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livetofall 0 #124 July 5, 2007 OK, lets have some fun..mentioning peace beween Egypt and Israel, how many of you folks know the story of the USS LIBERTY (hurry up and google!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #125 July 5, 2007 QuoteOK, lets have some fun..mentioning peace beween Egypt and Israel, how many of you folks know the story of the USS LIBERTY (hurry up and google!) you mean the US ship that was mistaken for an egyptian ship during the war and was attacked by the Israeli airforce? this was investigated to death and was accepted as a mistaken identity (very common in wars) beside a few who think Israel attacked the ship intentionally. what does it have to do with the peace between Israel and Egypt? O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites