England: Violent Crime

[birdlike 0]

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Controlling guns has made no difference.

That's the point. The 1997 ban was not supposed to make any difference. That was not the reason behind the legislation.

Then the reason waaaaaas....?

I mean, a law without a reason - what's the point of that? Was it to address a lead shortage? For what reason, other than to hopefully increase public safety, did they want a gun ban over there?

It is widely acknowledged that the gun ban was directly precipitated by the Dunblane school massacre. Public opinion against guns - even legal ones - swelled to where opportunistic politicians, who are always happy to be able to remove any means of popular resistance, were able to pass a ban. If this was a ban that descended directly from the Dunblane thing, how can the claim be made that it was not intended toward keeping the public safe by eliminating gun ownership?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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The ONLY point is, taking guns away from, or leaving guns with the population has no effect on crime rates, so why do it?

If it makes no difference either way - then it makes sense to remove them... There are around 800+ accidental deaths from guns in the US each year so you would prevent these losses. By your reference this could only then be compared to the economic loss of production jobs etc... and as no other industry would be allowed to continue with such fatalities there would be a strong argument.

Then how many of the many thousands who repel criminal attacks each year with their guns would be vulnerable and fall to such attacks? Probably more than the 800 you claim would be saved.

Besides, according to stuff I've read, in the time that we've been keeping track (basically like a century or so) gun-related accidents have steadily declined and are at an all-time national low.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[DZJ 0]

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If this was a ban that descended directly from the Dunblane thing, how can the claim be made that it was not intended toward keeping the public safe by eliminating gun ownership?

If the goal was eliminating gun ownership, kindly explain the continuing legality of rifles, shotguns, and certain pistols in the UK.

[birdlike 0]

You seem to be in the minority if you are asserting that gun ownership in the U.K. is anything but vanishingly rare.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[Scoop 0]

It's not that rare, paticularly in rural areas.

[DZJ 0]

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You seem to be in the minority if you are asserting that gun ownership in the U.K. is anything but vanishingly rare.

What does that have to do with the fact that firearms are still legal?

(And at any rate, you're wrong. There are a million people licensed to possess firearms in Britain. Source: The British Shooting Sports Council. http://www.nationalshootingweek.co.uk/images/stories/pdf/2007_nsw_shooting_facts.pdf)

[Skyrad 0]

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You seem to be in the minority if you are asserting that gun ownership in the U.K. is anything but vanishingly rare.

Thats total nonsense. Firearm ownership is on the increase not decline in the UK. Unlike in the US though purchasing a firearm for self protection is not a legal reason, people in the UK purchase them for sport or work purposes. (Bodyguards in the UK are not allowed to carry firearms outside of the Police and military, PI's are not allowed to carry them at all)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Stumpy 284]

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You seem to be in the minority if you are asserting that gun ownership in the U.K. is anything but vanishingly rare.

Thats total nonsense. Firearm ownership is on the increase not decline in the UK. Unlike in the US though purchasing a firearm for self protection is not a legal reason, people in the UK purchase them for sport or work purposes. (Bodyguards in the UK are not allowed to carry firearms outside of the Police and military, PI's are not allowed to carry them at all)

That doesn't stop it being vanishingly rare. I'd agree with this. I know about 3 people who have guns - two farmers and a target marksmen with a 7.62.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[birdlike 0]

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You seem to be in the minority if you are asserting that gun ownership in the U.K. is anything but vanishingly rare.

What does that have to do with the fact that firearms are still legal?

Go and try to buy a Beretta 92FS in your country and then tell us what the result of your endeavor is.

Please be sure to indicate whether your purchase was made legally or illegally.

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(And at any rate, you're wrong. There are a million people licensed to possess firearms in Britain. Source: The British Shooting Sports Council. http://www.nationalshootingweek.co.uk/images/stories/pdf/2007_nsw_shooting_facts.pdf)

I've read news articles that say that even the British Olympic shooting team, using single-shot pistols, is forced to go out of the country just to practice. Are you asserting that this is false information?

Perhaps you would be kind enough to stipulate for me/us what guns are legal to own in the U.K., and under what circumstances they may be purchased, stored, and used. Thanks in advance. If I'm ignorant on this, I'd love to be educated about it so I have the facts.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[Stumpy 284]

True about the pistols. (unfortunately)
But you can still own shotguns, target rifles, air rifles etc.
http://www.marplerifleandpistolclub.org.uk/general/gunlaw.htm
http://www.marplerifleandpistolclub.org.uk/general/faccert1.htm

There you go. That was the first google result. Should have all the info

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[birdlike 0]

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True about the pistols. (unfortunately)
But you can still own shotguns, target rifles, air rifles etc.
http://www.marplerifleandpistolclub.org.uk/general/gunlaw.htm
http://www.marplerifleandpistolclub.org.uk/general/faccert1.htm

There you go. That was the first google result. Should have all the info

I asked about storage, too, right?

Are you allowed, legally, to keep a firearm at the ready in your home to be used defensively, in the event of a home invasion? Or does it have to be locked up in a safe, and are you not subject to drop-ins by the police, without warrant, to check on whether your guns are properly locked away and inaccessible?

You're right, pity about the handguns. But they are a major sticking point with regard to Americans and our right to personal protection. I'd just as soon have handguns and not rifles, if I were forced to choose between one and the other only. I can't carry a rifle concealed day-to-day.

I really would like the details on how legal gun purchases are made in the U.K., if you'd oblige. I'm interested in whether you're blowing smoke with what I consider to be a bogus attempt to claim that guns are "just as" available in the U.K. as they are in the U.S. but you don't have the shootings we have. I believe that not only are guns almost impossible for you to obtain (and you said handguns are right out), but that your crime problem is stridently increasing.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

This was found in the information on the link you provided:

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When the FAC application is is received by the police (you get the form from them) along with the necessary fee, they will make an appointment with you to come and inspect your home and security arrangements for storing the firearms and ammunition.

When applying for the FAC it is worth while specifying more guns than you need, this is to allow the purchase of a new gun, before the sale of an old gun has gone through. There is no limit as to the number of guns or quantity of ammunition you can ask for, but the more you want, the more security the police may insist on before granting the FAC.

Basically they will expect a steel cabinet of at least 16 swg bolted to the floor and / or wall and secured with 5 lever lock(s). Connection to an alarm would be a bonus and in some locations may be a requirement. If your premises has shared access, for example if it is in a block of flats, the requirements may be more stringent.

It is worth remembering that unless anyone else living at your address has an FAC listing your guns, then that person cannot legally handle them, even in the home.

I guess that last part means that if your wife were home alone, three guys tried to break in, and she retrieved your shotgun and shot one and sent the others running, both you and she would swing for it, and probably do jail time. (Oh, you'd probably be banned from having an FAC for life, too, I'd imagine.)

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[Stumpy 284]

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True about the pistols. (unfortunately)
But you can still own shotguns, target rifles, air rifles etc.
http://www.marplerifleandpistolclub.org.uk/general/gunlaw.htm
http://www.marplerifleandpistolclub.org.uk/general/faccert1.htm

There you go. That was the first google result. Should have all the info

I asked about storage, too, right?

Are you allowed, legally, to keep a firearm at the ready in your home to be used defensively, in the event of a home invasion? Or does it have to be locked up in a safe, and are you not subject to drop-ins by the police, without warrant, to check on whether your guns are properly locked away and inaccessible?

You're right, pity about the handguns. But they are a major sticking point with regard to Americans and our right to personal protection. I'd just as soon have handguns and not rifles, if I were forced to choose between one and the other only. I can't carry a rifle concealed day-to-day.

I really would like the details on how legal gun purchases are made in the U.K., if you'd oblige. I'm interested in whether you're blowing smoke with what I consider to be a bogus attempt to claim that guns are "just as" available in the U.K. as they are in the U.S. but you don't have the shootings we have. I believe that not only are guns almost impossible for you to obtain (and you said handguns are right out), but that your crime problem is stridently increasing.

He he i didn't claim anything of the sort - maybe another poster did. I do know that target rifles are easy enough to get if that is what you need as are shotguns, but there aren't many gun shops around. The market just isn't that big.
The thing is - you are continuously missing the point as do most posters from the US. The gun licence isn't for defensive use, you are right. But almost NOBODY in the UK feels they need them for that, and that was true both before and after the ban. I don't think the US should ban its guns, its an important part of your culture and an important symbol of your rights. It was NEVER that in the UK.
The sooner people stop comparing apples with oranges the sooner we can shut speakers corner down!

Edited to add: http://www.ukgundealer.com/rules.htm

Some useful stuff here. Looks like you go to a gun shop with your FAC and buy a gun.
(I never bought one, i used to use the club target rifles)

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[birdlike 0]

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He he i didn't claim anything of the sort - maybe another poster did. I do know that target rifles are easy enough to get if that is what you need as are shotguns, but there aren't many gun shops around. The market just isn't that big.
The thing is - you are continuously missing the point as do most posters from the US. The gun licence isn't for defensive use, you are right. But almost NOBODY in the UK feels they need them for that, and that was true both before and after the ban. I don't think the US should ban its guns, its an important part of your culture and an important symbol of your rights. It was NEVER that in the UK.
The sooner people stop comparing apples with oranges the sooner we can shut speakers corner down!

I respect this post. Thanks.

I am glad that you agree that gun ownership most definitely is an important part of American rights. If your culture is different, your culture is different. One of the objections we Americans raise is that it doesn't appear to us that the right of self defense should be denied to others just because their culture is not "American." So, to me, it doesn't matter a whole lot that most brits don't care to use a gun for self defense. The fact remains that a handgun is the most effective weapon for self defense, and whatever brits would like to have access to them for that purpose are denied.

I suppose we're going to have to see what happens. Some of us are willing to believe reports that we've read that British violence (gun and otherwise) is startlingly out of control and rising. If it's happening like we think, it won't be long before it can't be swept under the rug anymore, and then people will have to face whatever (debatable) realities confront British subjects where the right of self defense is concerned.

Meanwhile, we over here are not willing to go the way the U.K. has gone. We will not give up our means of protection from the criminal element.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[Stumpy 284]

Thanks for your answer - but your last sentence is the one that is the point.
We didn't give up the right to weapons for self defence. We didn't really have it before the dunblane thing, we didn't have it after - essentially nothing changed.
Personally i have left the UK because i was fed up with it, but for a whole bunch of issues, gun control was not one of them. Overcrowding (on the roads especially), poor government, cost of living vs quality of living, legislation against anything that anyone might enjoy, etc etc. I feel perfectly safe without a gun in the uk, as do probably 99.99 per cent of the population.
(Incidentally, i could have moved to the US, but a lot of the things wrong with the UK are worse in the US - so NZ won!!! )

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[birdlike 0]

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Thanks for your answer - but your last sentence is the one that is the point.
We didn't give up the right to weapons for self defence. We didn't really have it before the dunblane thing, we didn't have it after - essentially nothing changed.

Yep, and that's my point. Should Brits not have the right to defend themselves with something as effective as a handgun just because there's no nationwide precedent for it? (Of course, nobles have always had that right, haven't they.) To me, it's moot that Brits haven't historically had the right to carry guns.

Now, efforts have been made to push Brit-style gun bans on the U.S. -- via the U.N., mostly. (Rebecca Peters) Banning guns will never work in the U.S. But on the other hand, lack of guns (for honest people) is not seeming to work that well for Britons, and as crime there gets worse, is it not possible that gun ownership and resistance to criminals might work for them?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

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[Stumpy 284]

There really are small numbers of guns in the uk. I think suddenly making something available would actually be disastrous because we don't have the culture for it. I think the vast majority of people wouldn't want one anyway, and the only people that would would be the ones who feel they have something to prove.. (NB. I know that is NOT how it is in the states,) I can't think of a single peron i know who feels that a gun would benefit them in any way shape or form (from a self defence point of view)
Besides, as per the home office report shootings went down last year. (but then again i know all about lies, damn lies and statistics......)

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[birdlike 0]

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There really are small numbers of guns in the uk. I think suddenly making something available would actually be disastrous because we don't have the culture for it. I think the vast majority of people wouldn't want one anyway, and the only people that would would be the ones who feel they have something to prove. (NB. I know that is NOT how it is in the states,) I can't think of a single peron i know who feels that a gun would benefit them in any way shape or form (from a self defence point of view)
Besides, as per the home office report shootings went down last year. (but then again i know all about lies, damn lies and statistics......)

Those damned statistics!

Hey, we should remember that although there are an estimated 80M gun owners (of 300M Americans), they say that only about 5% of those who live in concealed-carry-eligible areas (about 40 of the 50 states, I believe) go out and get the license to carry a gun.

I don't want to push guns on people who don't want them. It's a personal choice. I just want people to have the choice; and I want them to be aware of the choice. Just as important, I don't want people who don't want guns to feel it's their prerogative to force that choice on me by eliminating the option of carrying a gun. Fair, right?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[Stumpy 284]

I don't want people who don't understand the british culture telling the brits what we should think and do but that doesn't seem to be a problem for most.....

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[DZJ 0]

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Go and try to buy a Beretta 92FS in your country and then tell us what the result of your endeavor is.

Please be sure to indicate whether your purchase was made legally or illegally.

Ah, so a Beretta 92FS is now the standard as to whether or not firearms are legal. What a bizarre way to argue. (To apply your logic, I imagine surface-to-air guided missiles are quite hard to come across in the States, are all 'weapons' therefore illegal?)

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I've read news articles that say that even the British Olympic shooting team, using single-shot pistols, is forced to go out of the country just to practice. Are you asserting that this is false information?

It's wonderfully entertaining watching you constantly shift the goalposts, but what does that have to do with the fact that firearms are neither illegal, nor 'vanishingly rare' in the UK?

[rushmc 23]

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I don't want people who don't understand the british culture telling the brits what we should think and do but that doesn't seem to be a problem for most.....

From either side of the pond...........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[juanesky 0]

Don't you love it how many britts cry when this happens, but have no trouble, and I mean zero issue trying mock the US at every chance they have, using the "we are culturaly superior card"

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[rushmc 23]

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Don't you love it how many britts cry when this happens, but have no trouble, and I mean zero issue trying mock the US at every chance they have, using the "we are culturaly superior card"

I found it quite ironic

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[juanesky 0]

What I find more ironic is that they use baseless fact such as "anyone can go to walmart and buy guns" crap, without know how actually the process of buying firearms is in here.

Not to mention of the postter who likes to call all those who own handguns idiots, does not know anything about firearms, and has been backpedalling for a while...

Reminds me of that Gary character in team america when he is giving the guys the signal (waving arms) and saying don't shoot...and the other guys think he is saying "F you."

[trigger 0]

I think you'll find the poster was making a point that it is now impossible to own either a semi automatic like a Baretta 92fs[whatever that is] or a revolver as far as handguns go,its single shot only for handguns and as far as shotguns go its two shots only here the uk.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.