birdlike 0 #101 July 8, 2007 QuoteYep..believe it or not i do see everyone who's posting heres points and i'm not in total disagrement,but imo less guns/stronger vetting=less oppertunatey for guns falling into the wrong hands. The recent high school masacre in the US to me illustrates the failure of the US vetting system with regards to gun ownership. I know the pre 1997 UK requirements were a ball ache and probably deterred alot of normal people from pursuing sport shooting. However,the system didn't prevent Hungerford nor Dunblane,but is it probable a similiar system could have prevented that hate filled Korean from forfilling his sick fantasy. So you are admitting that the tightest "vetting" system was powerless to prevent Dunblane. So if that's the case, how is it that you could be arguing for anything other than simply removing all guns from the public? I'm not sure which "high school" massacre you're referring to. Perhaps the Virginia Tech shooting? How would better vetting have helped? It's easy to demonstrate that if a person is denied the ability to buy a legal handgun, he'll just buy an illegal one. (I mean, all the guns used in crimes in britain are just that.) Every so often I read about guns being stolen from cops. Happened recently, where a kid in Florida and his buddy broke into an off-duty cop's car, stole his backup handgun; and then one of the kids "accidentally" killed his friend while "playing" with the gun. This points to the fact that even if no civilians had guns, criminals and idiots would still get them. It also points to the fact that trying to shelter kids' minds from the realities of guns (leaving them to "learn" all they know about them from the movies) is a recipe for disaster.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #102 July 8, 2007 How's that working at keeping the crims from getting hold of them for ya? Evidently not all THAT well. *** I fully appreciated thats it's nigh on immpossible to stop a hardened criminal element from aquiring a gun. But it is possible imo to make it alot harder..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #103 July 8, 2007 QuoteYep..believe it or not i do see everyone who's posting heres points and i'm not in total disagrement,but imo less guns/stronger vetting=less oppertunatey for guns falling into the wrong hands. The recent high school masacre in the US to me illustrates the failure of the US vetting system with regards to gun ownership. I know the pre 1997 UK requirements were a ball ache and probably deterred alot of normal people from pursuing sport shooting. However,the system didn't prevent Hungerford nor Dunblane,but is it probable a similiar system could have prevented that hate filled Korean from forfilling his sick fantasy. Bullshit! Your country has an incredible amount of obstacles to gun ownership and still can't keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Until you can PROVE that those obstacles work 100% to keep ALL guns out of their hands your argument that they prevent crimes is unproveable. What would have stopped the massacre at VA Tech was ONE PERSON - one person that was armed and willing to use it.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #104 July 8, 2007 QuoteHow's that working at keeping the crims from getting hold of them for ya? Evidently not all THAT well. *** I fully appreciated thats it's nigh on immpossible to stop a hardened criminal element from aquiring a gun. But it is possible imo to make it alot harder. Gee, you'd think that an ALL OUT BAN would do a good job at it, right? And yet, in the places with all out bans, they still get them. Why do you keep banging your head against the reality and still pretending it's not there?Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #105 July 8, 2007 I'm admitting that it's nigh on impossible to prevent firearms from falling into determined criminal hands and that the pre 1997 UK requirements obviously had there failings and could have gone alot further..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #106 July 8, 2007 If you read the incidents forum people talk about prevention and i appreciate that you cant prevent it all,but just peventing some would be an improvement..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #107 July 8, 2007 So it sounds like you're about ready to give up on the idea of tight gun restrictions. About the only statement left to make is, "Well, yes, in a world without guns, no one would be hurt or killed with guns." Beyond that, any talk of trying to keep them away from the wrong people (without condemning honest people to not being allowed to have them) is nothing more than mental masturbation.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #108 July 8, 2007 Really........CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #109 July 8, 2007 Quote If you read the incidents forum people talk about prevention and i appreciate that you cant prevent it all,but just peventing some would be an improvement. OHHHHHH, the old, "If it saves just one life, even the most radical sacrifice is worth it" argument. That's why you're giving up your automobile, right? Just to prevent the possibility that you might lose control and run down some lady and her children as they cross the street, right?Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #110 July 8, 2007 i'd love to give up my car but even i need to eat.. But i do try to the best of my ability to drive the damn thing in a controlled and responsible manner..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #111 July 8, 2007 Quotei'd love to give up my car but even i need to eat.. But i do try to the best of my ability to drive the damn thing in a controlled and responsible manner. In the US today, roughly 200 million guns and 80 million gun owners did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING dangerous.... http://www.assaultweaponwatch.comMike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #112 July 8, 2007 I'm glad to hear that,well it's 02.35 am here so i'm off to bed'appreciate that i can't change the world but sincerely take care guys..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #113 July 8, 2007 QuoteIf you read the incidents forum people talk about prevention and i appreciate that you cant prevent it all,but just peventing some would be an improvement. Agreed. Prevention is always prefered. Prevent death due to accidents with safety and education. Prevent death due to illness with vaccines and early detection. Prevent death due to crime?! You need to address the criminals. The people. But removing the tools from legal possession is NOT the answer. (Why should I give up my possessions because someone might steal it - which is illegal - and use it illegally.) I will fight tooth and nail against having my liberties revoked for a purpose that WILL NOT produce a significant impact on the criminal. If we could prevent crime without limiting the acts of "non crazy" types... then you'll be getting somewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 848 #114 July 8, 2007 Everyone seems to be missing the fact that the stastics bear out our argument as well. We have a much larger population AND registered gun owner population than the UK does BY FAR, yet their gun death numbers are rapidly approaching ours. Obviously gun control works! I think Trigger is Michael Moore in hiding... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #115 July 8, 2007 Quoteyet their gun death numbers are rapidly approaching ours. Bullshit.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #116 July 8, 2007 Quote Quote yet their gun death numbers are rapidly approaching ours. Bullshit. Numbers don't lie!.....unless you want them to. Maybe someone should talk to the home office"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #117 July 8, 2007 I'll you'll find the home office figures are incidents and not necessarily fatalities show me where the figures quoted refer to being purely fatalities..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #118 July 8, 2007 Here you go the FACTS http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb0207.pdf You'll have to learn to be a little bit more through..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanvasAnchor 0 #119 July 8, 2007 True Outlaw guns and only Outlaws will have guns . Most registered competent gun owners obey and respect the laws and others , rarely is a felon crime commited by everyday gun owners with registered legally obtained weapons . When it does happen it is usually in a case of , something along the lines of domestic violence - crimes of passion . Even than it rarely involves registered guns .Who is picking up the tab for all of this ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richards 0 #120 July 8, 2007 QuoteQuoteAs an example of what I consider to be a victimless crime... someone who gets busted for pot. They're not causing direct harm to anyone else. Do cops still bust people for smoking a joint where you live? My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanvasAnchor 0 #121 July 8, 2007 Quote Do cops still bust people for smoking a joint where you live? Not in our neck of the woods , unless it involves ridiculously large quantities -intent to distribute- or they use it as an excuse to dig for find or get something else out of the suspect .Who is picking up the tab for all of this ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #122 July 9, 2007 QuoteHere you go the FACTS http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb0207.pdf You'll have to learn to be a little bit more through. I made my point. I don't need altered data to learn more."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #123 July 9, 2007 Quote I'll you'll find... Posting drunk again, are ya? Gotta watch that!Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #124 July 9, 2007 It wasn't long ago that I read (actually read the text of) a United Nations survey of crime victimization that showed that England's rate of violent crime was actually HIGHER than that of the U.S., and among the top three of western first-world nations. (Of course, third-world countries with total bans on gun ownership are hardly paragons of safety. Look at what goes on in Jamaica, Haiti, Mexico, Sudan, and a slew of other underdeveloped places. When the bad guys don't have guns to do their slaughtering, they use machetes, or they burn tires around people's necks. GOD how I wish we could get rid of our guns and be as civilized as the rest of the world! Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #125 July 9, 2007 Ok i read some of that report. (i shouldn't - i am at work but hey!!!) Homidcides for example. if you remove the 7 july bombings there is a reduction of 15 per cent. if you leave them in, they are down 9 per cent. What else - well, shootings were down to 50 from 75 the year before. Homicides were at a peak in 2002/2003 and have been decresing since (2002/2003 included 172 victims of Harold shipman) In the last year firearms crimes involving injury fell 8 per cent. Firearms crimes in total were down 6 percent, and they had fallen 5 per cent the year before. Sound like the out of control crime explosion really is out of control!!!Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
