What did Jesus look like???

[jakee 1,490]

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Biochemistry confused me, so I defer to those who have spent a LOT of time studying it.

Biochemistry is hard science, religion is not.

If you don't think Pajarito's beliefs are utterly incoherent then I'm afraid it is you who have not spent enough time studying them.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[JackC 0]

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Thinking a belief is stupid is one thing. Having the decency and class to avoid ridiculing someone to make yourself feel superior is another. You CAN do both.

Maybe we can but this is SC! Seriously though, some beliefs are so mind bogglingly bizarre and devoid of reason that reductio ad absurdum is the most effective tool to use. It's a legitimate debate tactic and not one designed to spare your feelings.

I'm sorry but I don't think we should deal with an assault on rationality by patting the chap on the head and making politically correct noises at him till he goes away.

Religion deserves no special treatment.

[pajarito 0]

I've got nothing against any of you personally. I don't even know you. I'm sure you'd be an interesting person to hang out with. I don't really care what you think of me or what I have to say. I also don't care if you think what I have to say is complete garbage. What we should all do here is discuss ideas. Not attack each other. If you bring up a topic, I may post an opposing view. I'll defend my stance. You'll defend yours. We can do all of that without directing insults at each other’s intelligence. If you don't agree with me, tell me why. I'll do the same. Maybe we can rationally come to a consensus. Maybe we can't. That's ok. We can still consider what is being discussed and agree to disagree.

[masterblaster72 0]

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I've got nothing against any of you personally. I don't even know you. I'm sure you'd be an interesting person to hang out with. I don't really care what you think of me or what I have to say. I also don't care if you think what I have to say is complete garbage. What we should all do here is discuss ideas. Not attack each other. If you bring up a topic, I may post an opposing view. I'll defend my stance. You'll defend yours. We can do all of that without directing insults at each other’s intelligence. If you don't agree with me, tell me why. I'll do the same. Maybe we can rationally come to a consensus. Maybe we can't. That's ok. We can still consider what is being discussed and agree to disagree.

Good post pajarito

I listened to the first hour of that WOTM broadcast on Catholicism while I was cleaning my apartment the other night. While I share a lot of views in common with the fellow in regard to the Catholic church (and he said nothing new, as I heard this same thing 20 years ago when I was a born-again Christian), I have to say that I found his condemnation of hundreds of millions of people *very* distasteful.

Equally distasteful is the pope's declaration yesterday that the Catholic church is the only true church. For this reason I will never believe in any religion that looks to divide rather than bring people together. The golden rule (the essence of the ten commandments and of most religions) is what I try to live by. All the other dogma and doctrine surrounding it is an extraneous distraction that serves no good purpose.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[JackC 0]

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What we should all do here is discuss ideas. Not attack each other.

We should but debate is thin on the ground in here. Unfortunately, SC suffers from more than it's fair share of McCarthyism so I wouldn't hold your breath.

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If you bring up a topic, I may post an opposing view. I'll defend my stance. You'll defend yours. If you don't agree with me, tell me why. I'll do the same. Maybe we can rationally come to a consensus. Maybe we can't. That's ok.

We can't and here's why:

I "know" God exists and that His Word is true. I am solid in my belief. Nothing will ever change that. ~ Pajarito

If you present valid evidence that you're right, I'll happily change my tune but apparently nothing can change yours so any debate, evidence, logic or proof I may set forward will be swept aside in favour of a C&P from AiG. So it wouldn't be a debate so much as a proselytizing session.

Such is the way of things.

Edit: My original post wasn't aimed at you per se, more at the general idea that religion deserves special respect and should be exempt from certain types of criticism. It shouldn't.

[NCclimber 0]

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Pajarito spends a lot of time trying to seriously answer questions and cheap shots at his beliefs and all you guys do is whip yourselves up into a self-righteous frenzy. I have never seen Pajarito condemn or attack anyone here for what they think, only to say that in HIS belief that those people will be judged.

Pajarito doesn't spend any time answering peoples questions. He runs to WOTM or AiG and C&P's their answers.

And I'm sorry, but yes he does condemn people, saying that we will all burn in hell because we are evil is something that is generally considered to be rather rude.

It's certainly no better than me articulating my belief that his beliefs are stupid.

Oh look. Jakee displaying a "little" religious intolerance.

DDSS

[pajarito 0]

[jakee 1,490]

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Pajarito spends a lot of time trying to seriously answer questions and cheap shots at his beliefs and all you guys do is whip yourselves up into a self-righteous frenzy. I have never seen Pajarito condemn or attack anyone here for what they think, only to say that in HIS belief that those people will be judged.

Pajarito doesn't spend any time answering peoples questions. He runs to WOTM or AiG and C&P's their answers.

And I'm sorry, but yes he does condemn people, saying that we will all burn in hell because we are evil is something that is generally considered to be rather rude.

It's certainly no better than me articulating my belief that his beliefs are stupid.

Oh look. Jakee displaying a "little" religious intolerance.

DDSS

Oh look, NcClimber contributing nothing to a thread. Yay.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pajarito 0]

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as I heard this same thing 20 years ago when I was a born-again Christian

How are you defining what is a "born-again" Christian?

[Trent 0]

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I never tried to pretend I was objective.

And yet you feel an attempt to call someone for being biased is anything but hypocritical? Guess it was just a non-point then.

I will tell BillVon that being confused or ignorant is not an insult if he asks. I'm sure he has his own ideas of what constitutes an insult. I will not, however, whine about how I have been insulted if someone calls me confused or ignorant. Especially if they're talking about biochemistry or Aboriginal beliefs.

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Biochemistry is hard science, religion is not.

And I am as ignorant of it as you appear to be about Pajarito's religious beliefs. I say "appear to," because you MAY actually understand but you chose to put forth the same drivel that many people use when attacking Christianity.

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If you don't think Pajarito's beliefs are utterly incoherent then I'm afraid it is you who have not spent enough time studying them.

Hahahahaha, whatever dude. Try this. If you think his beliefs are utterly incoherent then I'm afraid it is YOU who have not spent enough time studying them. We can play that game all day long.

What I think of his beliefs is irrelevant to my posts. How people choose to address his beliefs is what I wrote about. It says more about you than it does him. Even if someone is wrong, his ability to be civil, rational, and not attack someone speaks volumes about his character.

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

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Maybe we can but this is SC! Seriously though, some beliefs are so mind bogglingly bizarre and devoid of reason that reductio ad absurdum is the most effective tool to use. It's a legitimate debate tactic and not one designed to spare your feelings.

Like I said... it says more about the person employing that tactic than it does about the opponent or his beliefs.

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I'm sorry but I don't think we should deal with an assault on rationality by patting the chap on the head and making politically correct noises at him till he goes away.

Religion deserves no special treatment.

Thinking something is ridiculous and being decent to a person are 2 different things and can be done simultaneously. No one said religion deserves special treatment, but Pajarito deserves to be responded to in a manner that he responds to people in. If he says you're all heathens and that he'll laugh as you burn in hell, respond likewise and no one could fault you. If he responds with honesty and efforts to explain and help people understand (not necessarily agree with, but understand)... I feel he deserves similar responses instead of the usual, "You're stupid because you think we were made from dirt" style ignorant arguments.

Oh, hello again!

[jakee 1,490]

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And yet you feel an attempt to call someone for being biased is anything but hypocritical? Guess it was just a non-point then.

No. You came in here pretending you were only defending Paj because you felt we were ganging up on him or something. I explained to you why I think Paj's beliefs are silly (twisted logic, mutually contradictory viewpoints etc.) and you automatically assumed that Paj's arguments are actually logical and that I only thought they weren't because I had misunderstood him.

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And I am as ignorant of it as you appear to be about Pajarito's religious beliefs.

I first talked to Paj about his religion over three years ago. Back then he would answer questions in his own words and actually genuinely attempt to address the numerous paradoxes, inconsistencies and logical absurdities that people highlighted in his arguments. Back then I would engage in civil debate with him.

Over time he has stopped actually responding to people and simply C&Ps whatever absurd new article Ken, Kirk or Ray have come up with and underline the bits he particularly likes. he also throws in the old fire and brimstone 'sinners repent' treatment more and more frequently as well. That isn't debate, and as such I have no qualms about resorting to mockery because believe me, some things just have to be mocked!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DJL 235]

Here's a picture:

The Jesus

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[JackC 0]

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Like I said... it says more about the person employing that tactic than it does about the opponent or his beliefs.

You do know what reductio ad absurdum is right? It's not a personal attack.

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Thinking something is ridiculous and being decent to a person are 2 different things and can be done simultaneously. No one said religion deserves special treatment, but Pajarito deserves to be responded to in a manner that he responds to people in. If he says you're all heathens and that he'll laugh as you burn in hell, respond likewise and no one could fault you. If he responds with honesty and efforts to explain and help people understand (not necessarily agree with, but understand)... I feel he deserves similar responses instead of the usual, "You're stupid because you think we were made from dirt" style ignorant arguments.

Pajarito frequently posts about how how heathens will burn in hell (example) in fact his sig is devoted to it. That's fine, but he has to expect people to react to being told such things.

[Trent 0]

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You do know what reductio ad absurdum is right? It's not a personal attack.

I never said it was. But asking unrealistic questions in an attempt to prove a point is much less effective than saying, "here's why I think you're wrong." I've never gotten the impression that Pajarito wouldn't be able to reason with an argument like that.

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Pajarito frequently posts about how how heathens will burn in hell (example) in fact his sig is devoted to it. That's fine, but he has to expect people to react to being told such things.

That's his belief. He's responding to a thread that asked "Where did God come from?" Again, if you don't believe in it, why do you care? Is he coming to your house saying "sinner, repent!"? I'm gonna guess not.

Do you take issue with anyone who is religious because they, more than likely, have some belief of what happens when you die that you will not agree with?

I just don't see Pajarito as an "in your face" type of religious guy ala Fred Phelps. He responds usually when someone's asking or getting something wrong or attacking his beliefs. You get into a conversation with someone about their beliefs and they're gonna tell you what they think. That can be done without being completely rude or antagonistic. That's all I'm saying.

Oh, hello again!

[pajarito 0]

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Pajarito frequently posts about how how heathens will burn in hell in fact his sig is devoted to it. That's fine, but he has to expect people to react to being told such things.

I fully expect most people to react just like you did. The Bible says that the gospel message is very offensive and foolish to the world. If a Christian isn’t taking heat for speaking the truth, then he/she is failing in their task.

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For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but to us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18

From the perspective of the world, the message is shameful. It is so shameful and antagonizing that most Christians are afraid to proclaim it. They don’t want to be ridiculed and resented. Faithful Christians, however, are obligated to preach the whole gospel. This includes the reality of sin, judgment, punishment, hell, righteousness, justice as well as love, grace, and forgiveness. Most today only want to speak about the latter. Many, as a matter of fact, don’t even want to mention Jesus and the cross. They want to preach all-inclusive acceptance so as not to offend anyone. They want to turn church into a “country club” where people can just come and have fun. They want to build enormous activity centers in order to attract people into coming without putting the real emphasis on why they should be coming.

That’s simply not the message. God wishes that none perish but that all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). There is NO forgiveness without repentance. Without forgiveness, you stand in judgment and God’s wrath, not his love, abides on you. You are under the full weight of the Law (10 Commandments) which is clearly shown that none can live up to. Every day, you are storing up wrath which will be revealed on the Day of Wrath.

The Law makes the message of the gospel make sense. It makes it reasonable. That’s what differentiates this from “hell-fire” preaching. The Law is a Schoolmaster to bring us to Christ whereby we are justified by faith (Galatians 3:24). It is the needle which prepares the way for the thread of the gospel. It is absolutely necessary, however offensive it may be. It doesn’t matter if a Christian NEVER sees a person respond to his/her message as long as he/she is presenting the gospel in the Biblical manner. The way Jesus himself did as well Peter, Paul, and others.

[JackC 0]

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But asking unrealistic questions in an attempt to prove a point is much less effective than saying, "here's why I think you're wrong." I've never gotten the impression that Pajarito wouldn't be able to reason with an argument like that.

So you missed the part where Pajarito said I "know" God exists and that His Word is true. I am solid in my belief. Nothing will ever change that.

How can you reason with someone who has already decided they wont reason?

But you're right. It is better to say "here's why I think you're wrong". Unfortunately it wont get us anywhere because no matter how powerful my argument, Pajarito has already decided I'm wrong. Eventually frustration sets in and all you can do is walk away before you rip your own hair out.

Now I also have a problem with "unrealistic questions". Ones like "can god make a rock so heavy he can't lift it" or pulling out the old "problem of evil" argument. What's so unrealistic about that? It's reductio ad absurdum and it's perfectly acceptable in my book. But because it reduces the argument for god to an absurdity (which is the whole point) it suddenly becomes an unrealistic question and people take offense.

Normally, having the absurdity of an argument pointed out to you is grounds for re-evaluating your position. Unless you're religious. Then it's ground for shouting "unreasonable question". That's special pleading and it just won't do.

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You get into a conversation with someone about their beliefs and they're gonna tell you what they think. That can be done without being completely rude or antagonistic. That's all I'm saying.

Fair enough. I do try not to be too antagonistic but then you have this:

I fully expect most people to react just like you did. The Bible says that the gospel message is very offensive and foolish to the world. If a Christian isn't taking heat for speaking the truth, then he/she is failing in their task.

Pajarito seems to be saying that antagonism is the intention or at least he's acknowledging that it will be the effect. So you have the fan, and the shit...

[JackC 0]

Paj, I don't buy into the existnce of god let alone the validity of the whole sin and hell thing. You do. You wont budge no matter what I say and I haven't seen you give any good reason why I should either. So that doesn't leave us much room for manoeuvre does it?

[masterblaster72 0]

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as I heard this same thing 20 years ago when I was a born-again Christian

How are you defining what is a "born-again" Christian?

In my case, it was "accepting Jesus as 'my Lord and personal saviour,'" reading the Bible twice cover-to-cover, going to pentecostal church on Sunday and singing and speaking in tongues, handing out tracts to strangers and sandwiches to the homeless in downtown Philly, 'witnessing' to those who didn't believe what I did, bible study during the week, praying very often...yada...

I have no regrets about it; it was during a tough period in my life as a teenager while my parents were separated and at war with each other with me in the middle of it all, one in which I could have easily turned to drugs. Instead I turned to religion, and it served its purpose for a while, giving me hope in the midst of my misery at the time, until I started asking serious questions and not getting any logical answers that made sense.

You can consider me a permanent "backslider."

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Butters 0]

It is hard to believe the fantasy when living in reality. Walking on water, turning water into wine, etc... fantasy, plain and simple, fantasy.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pajarito 0]

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as I heard this same thing 20 years ago when I was a born-again Christian

How are you defining what is a "born-again" Christian?

In my case, it was "accepting Jesus as 'my Lord and personal saviour,'" reading the Bible twice cover-to-cover, going to pentecostal church on Sunday and singing and speaking in tongues, handing out tracts to strangers and sandwiches to the homeless in downtown Philly, 'witnessing' to those who didn't believe what I did, bible study during the week, praying very often...yada...

I have no regrets about it; it was during a tough period in my life as a teenager while my parents were separated and at war with each other with me in the middle of it all, one in which I could have easily turned to drugs. Instead I turned to religion, and it served its purpose for a while, giving me hope in the midst of my misery at the time, until I started asking serious questions and not getting any logical answers that made sense.

You can consider me a permanent "backslider."

Jesus doesn’t need your “acceptance.” That would give you some of the credit. God gets all the credit. Your repentance and faith are required. Reading the Bible, going to church, witnessing, and feeding the poor are things one would do “if” they were saved but not “in order to be” saved. “Works” outside of Christ are like “filthy rags” in the eyes of God because He sees our wicked hearts. You lack genuine contrition for your sin. You also lack proper understanding that your sin is “exceedingly sinful” to God. For whatever reason you turned to “religion” in your youth, it wasn’t because you’d sinned against God and God alone. Any repentance you might have had was obviously horizontal in nature (e.g. sorrow for hurting others) and not vertical (e.g. sorrow for hurting God). You might have just wanted to experiment to see if this religion thing would make your life better or improve your relationship with your parents. It’s not about making your life better. It’s not about your self-esteem. It’s not about nice people to hang out with or a cool place to go. It’s about Jesus Christ and what He did for you on the cross. He paid the fine for your transgression in His life’s blood and He was the only one who ever could. That does you absolutely no good, however, unless you appropriate the gift. It’s like having a parachute on a plane that’s going to crash. It does you absolutely no good unless you put the parachute on before you jump from the plane.

Despite some of the good things you did, you were probably never born again. Being “born again” is a radical experience. One who has truly repented produces the “things that accompany salvation” (Hebrews 6:9). They demonstrate the fruits of salvation/righteousness (e.g. love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, etc.; Galatians 5:22-23). If one is not “growing in holiness” and becoming more like Christ, he/she was probably never a Christian in the first place. They didn’t “backslide.” They never “slid forward” in the first place.

Added: However, it is true that only God knows your heart. It's not for me or anyone else to say that a person is saved or not. It's just "if it quacks like a duck"....well....you know what I mean.

[masterblaster72 0]

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...feeding the poor are things one would do “if” they were saved but not “in order to be” saved. “Works” outside of Christ are like “filthy rags” in the eyes of God because He sees our wicked hearts.

So you reduce "action" to terms like "acts" and "works." I believe actions are what define a person, and if your god doesn't recognize good action and doing good things (Mother Theresa for example, who was not a born-again Christian) just because that person doesn't believe what YOU believe, then once again -- I'm happy I'm not a member of your church.

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You lack genuine contrition for your sin. ... It’s about Jesus Christ and what He did for you on the cross. He paid the fine for your transgression in His life’s blood and He was the only one who ever could.

So your god sent Jesus so that everyone would be bound to his death for their entire lives along the narrow lines of what you believe, lest they rot in hell forever and ever. You know what? No thanks. I don't need a martyr to impose such a rigid set of rules on me. That's a bum deal.

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Despite some of the good things you did, you were probably never born again. Being “born again” is a radical experience. One who has truly repented produces the “things that accompany salvation” (Hebrews 6:9). They demonstrate the fruits of salvation/righteousness (e.g. love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, etc.; Galatians 5:22-23). If one is not “growing in holiness” and becoming more like Christ, he/she was probably never a Christian in the first place. They didn’t “backslide.” They never “slid forward” in the first place.

I was as born-again as you. I believed exactly what you believe now, and I was in the business of telling people they'd go to hell for not believing what I believe.

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Added: However, it is true that only God knows your heart. It's not for me or anyone else to say that a person is saved or not. It's just "if it quacks like a duck"....well....you know what I mean.

Weak. You totally judged me, you're the one who said above that I have a "wicked" heart. You're the one who said I was never 'saved' to begin with. You're the one who's willfully ignorant and completely closed to what others believe, and your judgement of others is nothing short of hateful.

Enjoy.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[dorbie 0]

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and if your god doesn't recognize good action and doing good things (Mother Theresa for example, who was not a born-again Christian)

Ouch, bad example (otherwise good post), Mother Teresa doesn't hold up well under scrutiny when you look at the details. Hitchens actually learned of worse stuff after he published his book.

http://www.slate.com/id/2090083/

The only amazing thing is how her public image persists despite this.

[dorbie 0]

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I was as born-again as you. I believed exactly what you believe now, and I was in the business of telling people they'd go to hell for not believing what I believe.

Well done for shaking that shit, I know you don't need my congratulations, intellectual freedom is its own reward.

[SpeedRacer 1]

one guy's opinion. clearly he had an axe to grind re. the Catholic church's opinions on contraception & abortion.

You may agree with it or not, but don't expect everyone to just accept his opinion piece as *ahem* gospel.

Speed Racer
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