Wind generation VS Solar Panels

[Rookie120 0]

I just saw a news report about a man in New Jersey who had a small wind generator next to his house. The city has pulled his permit to operate it because his neighbors are bitching about it. That can be for another thread though. My question is which one would be more beneficial for a family home? Price? Amount of power produced? Can the energy be stored for the days there isnt much wind? I never even thought about putting up a small wind generator outside my home. I cannot put one up where my condo is but when I finally buy a house that is something that I would consider if the price was right.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Kennedy 0]

Finding a good site for wind is not easy. And you need fairly constant winds to generate the kind of power you need to run a home. Solar is no piece of cake like people think, but by and large it seems to be more appropriate to single family homes.

I'm sure BillVon or someone equally enlightened can point you in the right direction.
(I'm surprised when peole know what a greywater system is, but BVill acutally HAS one)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Rookie120 0]

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I'm sure BillVon or someone equally enlightened can point you in the right direction.

I'm sure he has some info on it. I am in no position to buy this stuf now anyway. The problem I see with solar panels is the cost. I wonder if the windmill is any cheaper. The guy on TV said he has no problem powering his home with it. I just wonder what kind of rig he has to do this with.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[sundevil777 102]

Of course it is hard/costly to store much energy with batteries.

One way to store energy from a windmill is to put them near hydroelectric dams, and use the excess energy from the windmill to pump water back up into the dam, so that the dam's generator can run at a greater capacity.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Gawain 0]

He must have had quite the windmill system set up in his house. I've only been around a wind mill farm once in California. Those things create a lot of noise.

I don't know which is more efficient though (I'm guessing solar). Bill Von has his house wired for sound when it comes to being energy efficient. In fact, I'd wager he has a "negative" carbon footprint. He's the only guy I know who walks the walk, without being flamboyant about the talk.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jm951 0]

There might be one way to get past the neighbors and the city, get a ham radio license and put an antenna on top of the beast. A case could be made that the windmill is there to help generate power for the rig. I have a ham license and this stuff comes up all the time in the amateur radio community. Short version is, by federal law, you cannot be stopped or restricted from erecting a suitable antenna for your rig, no matter what the city or neighbors say. The real problem comes in when you build a tidal wave of ill will among the locals so this has to be done in a circumspect manner.

[trigger 0]

You're certainly right on about the cost.
http://www.solarutilities.co.uk/solar/shop.html
http://the-green-company.com/_wsn/page10.html

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[Rookie120 0]

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He's the only guy I know who walks the walk, without being flamboyant about the talk.

I tip my hat to him also. I just wish it was more practical for someone like me to do what he does. I just cannot throw $40,000 at a set of solar panels.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

The 2.5 Tulipo one looke like the one that guy had. Not to big but can that run your house? Is that price in euro?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[trigger 0]

No UK pounds sterling.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[algboy 0]

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Finding a good site for wind is not easy. And you need fairly constant winds to generate the kind of power you need to run a home. Solar is no piece of cake like people think, but by and large it seems to be more appropriate to single family homes.

I'm sure BillVon or someone equally enlightened can point you in the right direction.
(I'm surprised when peole know what a greywater system is, but BVill acutally HAS one)

9 out of 10 times, solar is more cost-effective than wind. Few places in the world are suitable for wind as the primary energy production mode. [As my solar guy says: forget wind and put your money into buying more solar panels].

I've been running a 2kW solar array with 1100 amphour battery storage and a Subaru gas-powered backup generator since late `05. Wood-burning stove helps in the winter, too. Total cost around $23K and I have all the comforts of life in the "big city". I don't live in a passive solar, earthship, straw bale or anything exotic either--just a modern manufactured home.

We replaced all bulbs with CF and use energy-efficient appliances and "toys" as much as possible--although that's still a work-in-progress.

BTW, some of the better wind turbines are very low noise, but there's still the tower to contend with and the unappreciative neighbors (God--I'm so glad I live in the country)

Here's a good place to get schooled on the off-grid stuff: http://homepower.com/

[skinnyflyer 0]

one very important factor when considering solar is whether or not your state has net metering. net metering allows you to sell back any excess electricity you don't use back to the grid. this means that u don't need expensive batteries and your system will be much simpler and therefor cheaper. for example in ontario canada they're offering to buy solar electricity from customers at 42c when the market price is something like 6-10c. i believe some states also offer tax rebates and possibly other subsidies.

also check this out;
http://www.soliant-energy.com/products.php
its concentrated solar power. they use mirrors to concentrate the solar rays on to a photovoltaic cell. this allows them to use much less of the expensive pv cells in order to produce the same amount of electricity. they're supposed to be much cheaper than traditional pv cells though they're not coming to the market until 2008.

"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

[Rookie120 0]

A lot of that sounds really cool. I am all for using less and doing something like that. The thing is I am just a normanl middle class guy, and dropping $20,000 to $40,000 on solar panels just so I can save $100 a month doesnt seem like a good investment. Now if I had thatkind of cash in my hand I think it would be a great idea.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[algboy 0]

I'm not sure if Arizona even has net metering. It was a moot subject in my case: I'm completely off the grid. There's no phone lines, sewer, water or AC out here--you're own your own.

We did get a nice rebate check from APS for about $4000 ($2/watt) after our system was up.

Some people have the luxury of being able to sell back their generated AC. That's nice, but everyone's scenario is different. Mine was a desire for energy independence and flat out necessity. We were also able to bundle all the infrastructure into our mortgage.

[Rookie120 0]

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Mine was a desire for energy independence and flat out necessity.

Can you run air conditioning off your solar panel? Or does it not push enough juice.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[skinnyflyer 0]

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A lot of that sounds really cool. I am all for using less and doing something like that. The thing is I am just a normanl middle class guy, and dropping $20,000 to $40,000 on solar panels just so I can save $100 a month doesnt seem like a good investment. Now if I had thatkind of cash in my hand I think it would be a great idea.

i'm no expert but if the claims of the company from the link I posted above are accurate then solar might be priced much more competitely. these are just random numbers but if a system runs you 10k and saves you $500/yr you're getting a 5%return tax free vs if you invested 10k in the stock market and are skilled enough to get a 10% return you'll probably end up paying half that 10% in taxes. so i think that it's not there yet but it might make sense financially in the near future. especially as fossil fuel energy becomes more expensive.

and if you're estimated return on your investment beats the current interest rate then why not borrow.

"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

[billvon 2,989]

> The city has pulled his permit to operate it because his neighbors are bitching about it.

That's one of the problems of windmills. They sound a lot like - well - big propellers.

>My question is which one would be more beneficial for a family home?
>Price? Amount of power produced?

In good wind areas wind they are pretty cost effective. A Bergey Excel system (7 meter diameter) will run you around $25K and will output about 50kwhr/day if sited well; that's enough for even a non-efficient house that uses electric hot water heat and central A/C. Payoff time is about 11 years.

>Can the energy be stored for the days there isnt much wind?

Yep, same as solar. Batteries are the cheapest and easiest way to store power generally.

> . . but when I finally buy a house that is something that I would consider
>if the price was right.

It's very dependent on where you live. Check out these maps:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/windpoweringamerica/wind_maps.asp

>Can you run air conditioning off your solar panel? Or does it not push
>enough juice.

Sure; I have a tiny RV that we take on boogies that runs a small A/C off a battery and an inverter. Solar recharges the battery when we're parked somewhere without power (like Lost Prairie.)

But in most cases that doesn't matter. Most home installations use a grid-tied inverter. When the sun is out, power is fed back to the grid. When the sun's not out, power comes from the grid. So there's no issue running A/C (or anything, really) in the house; the only question is how much power you generate vs how much you use.

Our system generates about 2500 watts when the sun's out, which is more than enough to run our one A/C. It's a window unit that takes 500-700 watts while the compressor is running. So even if we disconnected we could run it.

[idrankwhat 0]

If you're in NJ the here's some info on tax incentives, relief and loan opportunities.
http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/map2.cfm?CurrentPageID=1&State=NJ&RE=1&EE=1
As for storage of any excess, if you're not going to go the battery route then you can store the excess on the grid through net metering.
http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/incentive2.cfm?Incentive_Code=NJ03R&state=NJ&CurrentPageID=1

[kelpdiver 2]

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i'm no expert but if the claims of the company from the link I posted above are accurate then solar might be priced much more competitely. these are just random numbers but if a system runs you 10k and saves you $500/yr you're getting a 5%return tax free vs if you invested 10k in the stock market and are skilled enough to get a 10% return you'll probably end up paying half that 10% in taxes. so i think that it's not there yet but it might make sense financially in the near future. especially as fossil fuel energy becomes more expensive.

ugh, this is terrible accounting.

If you invest 10k in the market and get 10% unrealized gains, you now have 11k and a taxable gain of 1k that in a high tax state like California, will cost you about $250 (after 12 months, long term gains are cheap). If you traded short of 12 months, it would be your marginal tax rate, which would still only be about $400.

OTOH, if you spent 10k on a solar system and saves $500, you're still down 9500. With the increasing cost of power (ignoring any decline in power output), you're looking at ~15 years just to break even. Meanwhile, that 10k in stocks is worth 40k.

If the question is about investment return (not about environmental issues), the solar panel loses with the arbitrary numbers you used. And loses badly. Change the assumptions, and perhaps factor in tax rebates, and the math might look better, but it's still a very long term investment.

That said, I'd much rather CA spend billions promoting panels instead of building new power plants.

[skinnyflyer 0]

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ugh, this is terrible accounting.

yes i am not an investor and don't know what i'm talking about.

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If you invest 10k in the market and get 10% unrealized gains, you now have 11k and a taxable gain of 1k that in a high tax state like California, will cost you about $250 (after 12 months, long term gains are cheap). If you traded short of 12 months, it would be your marginal tax rate, which would still only be about $400.

tax rate is much higher here in qc canada. 50% for over ~50k.

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OTOH, if you spent 10k on a solar system and saves $500, you're still down 9500.

what if you borrowed the 10k at 5%= $500/yr in interest. and the system saves you 500$/yr and more and more each year as fossil fuels become much more expensive.

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With the increasing cost of power (ignoring any decline in power output), you're looking at ~15 years just to break even. Meanwhile, that 10k in stocks is worth 40k.

if i use 10% compounded interest and a 50%tax on gains then i will have $16284 in 10 years. where did you get 40k? even at 10% tax free its no where near 40k. 70/%growth=doubling time.
70/7%(your numbers after tax)=10years
=20k

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if the question is about investment return (not about environmental issues), the solar panel loses with the arbitrary numbers you used. And loses badly. Change the assumptions, and perhaps factor in tax rebates, and the math might look better, but it's still a very long term investment.

you're right its not a winner with those numbers but the point i was trying to make is that its not that far off from competing with grid price. not as some great investment to get rich.

maybe a better example would be one of my family members has has ~1million in assets and is happy making a safe 5-6% return and paying ~%50 of that return in tax.

"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

[kelpdiver 2]

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if i use 10% compounded interest and a 50%tax on gains then i will have $16284 in 10 years. where did you get 40k? even at 10% tax free its no where near 40k. 70/%growth=doubling time.
70/7%(your numbers after tax)=10years
=20k

If you're going to use the rule of 72, 72/10 = 7.2. Not sure why you switched to 7% there. I did it the proper math way - 1.1^15 equals 4.1. And this stands to reason - 15 years at 7.2 years = two doublings.

And I'm not sure why you're paying that 50% every year. In the US you don't pay taxes on unrealized gains. Only when you sell the stocks is the bill due. (Less true for those who foolishly invest in active mutual funds, which do have taxable gains most years). So if you sell out the 40k and pay 25% on the gains (15% fed plus 9.4% state of California), you end up with 32.5k net.

If you borrow the 10k to buy the power, then yes, you're not investing your own money. But then (using your numbers again) you're paying $500/year in interest alone without address the principle. That's more opportunity cost - that money could be doing something positive for you. On the countering side, in the US you'd typically wrap that loan inside of the home loan somehow and probably could deduct the interest, so the carrying costs would be ~60%.

[skinnyflyer 0]

you're right the example i came up with is terrible and doesn't work. like i said i'm not an investor and i don't know what i'm talking about. i'm just someone who's curious about the economics of alternative energy. not sure why i thought u said 10 years instead of 15.


lets try a different example

http://www.energyrefuge.com/archives/Solar_panel_subsidy.htm

so in ontario canada they will pay you 42c/kwh for all the electricity you produce. and for the electricity that u consume u buy from the grid at 6c/kwh. this is certainly the best subsidy in canada, possibly north america?

so lets say a 2kw system runs u 20k.
there are ~2000 hours of sunlight/year there.
2000x2kw=4000kwhx0.42c=$1680/yr
we can ignore ur actual usage since ur buying it at 6c.
1680/20000=0.08%

its not the same as a compounding 0.08%return but thats $33600 over the life of the 20year contract they're offering. plus if they last another 15+years after that as they are expected then u would get 25000 more assuming that electricity is that expensive or they renew the subsidy.

if ur capable of getting 8-10% in stocks or whatever then u could take ur 1680/yr and have it compounding. and lets not forget that the government is promising you that rate for at least 20 years.

now lets say that theres a leap in the technology;
http://www.soliant-energy.com/products.php
they don't give any prices yet but they claim that its signifigantly cheaper than traditional pv cells. if you could built the same 2kw system for 10k then it certainly would be worth it to borrow the whole 10k at 5%.

lets say its 15k for the 2kw system.
1680x20yrs=33600
0.05%x15000x20yrs=15000
-________
$18600+20yrs more

obviously at some point u have to pay off the capitol if you borrowed. so if u put all ur profit to pay off the capitol then its paid in off in ~11 years. but i guess if ur earning 10% with other investments then maybe its better not to pay it off until the day it earns less than the interest on the loan.

"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

[skinnyflyer 0]

I came across this for california;
---------------------------------------------------------
PV CELL INSTALLATION BREAKDOWN

Here is a breakdown on the price for a 2KW gridtie from me in the SF Bay Area:

Contract Price: $18K
Rebate: $4K
Tax Credit: $2K
Net Price To Customer: $12K

My Cost For Modules: $10K
My Cost For Inverter: $1.7K
My Cost For Other Equipment: $1.2K

Remaining To Cover Labor and Overhead: $5.1k
---------------------------------------------------
how much is electriciy there? if only u had the 42c/kwh subsidy over there. combine that with the cheaper concentrated pv cells and it would be really competitive.

"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

[skinnyflyer 0]

from wiki;

Grid parity
Grid parity, the point at which photovoltaic electricity is equal to or cheaper than grid power, has already been achieved in some regions. Grid parity has been reached in Hawaii and many other islands that use diesel fuel to produce electricity.

In Italy, PV power has been cheaper than retail grid electricity since 2006. One kWh in Italy costs 21.08 €-cents. [3] Italy has an average of 1,600 kWh/m2 sun power per year (Sicily has even more, at 1,800 kWh/m2).
........
Some electric companies offer rebates to their customers, such as Austin Energy in Texas, which offers $4.50/watt installed up to $13,500.

"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

[tkhayes 348]

If you are ONLY going to consider the economic benefits then I doubt any of us will ever buy a fuel efficient car, we will never buy a solar water heater and we will never consider any form of energy usage other than traditional, fossil-fueled systems that we use today.

Of course, as we know in current times, there are better reasons to make changes to the ways we burn and use energy. solar makes total sense, even if it costs a little more.

You will STOP dumping thousands of tons of toxins into the atmosphere every year and reduce your reliability on anyone else for your power.

That alone is a good reason to change over. I only wish the government(s) would make it even more palatable by offering larger rebates and tax breaks. More people converting means more demand for components and probably more development and choices in the market - which helps drive the price down.

Of course - it' hard for me to be 'environmentally' radical when I burn 100K gallons of Jet-A every year - but I still put compact flourescents, high efficiency lights, and will install a solar heating system for water at the DZ this year.

TK