"I brought terror to people under the American Flag"

[Skyrad 0]

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Through a combination of gung-ho recklessness and criminal behaviour born of panic, a narrative emerges of an army that frequently commits acts of cold-blooded violence. A number of interviewees revealed that the military will attempt to frame innocent bystanders as insurgents, often after panicked American troops have fired into groups of unarmed Iraqis. The veterans said the troops involved would round up any survivors and accuse them of being in the resistance while planting Kalashnikov AK47 rifles beside corpses to make it appear that they had died in combat.

"It would always be an AK because they have so many of these lying around," said Joe Hatcher, 26, a scout with the 4th Calvary Regiment. He revealed the army also planted 9mm handguns and shovels to make it look like the civilians were shot while digging a hole for a roadside bomb.

"Every good cop carries a throwaway," Hatcher said of weapons planted on innocent victims in incidents that occurred while he was stationed between Tikrit and Samarra, from February 2004 to March 2005. Any survivors were sent to jail for interrogation.

There were also deaths caused by the reckless behaviour of military convoys. Sgt Kelly Dougherty of the Colorado National Guard described a hit-and-run in which a military convoy ran over a 10-year-old boy and his three donkeys, killing them all. "Judging by the skid marks, they hardly even slowed down. But, I mean... your order is that you never stop."

The worst abuses seem to have been during raids on private homes when soldiers were hunting insurgents. Thousands of such raids have taken place, usually at dead of night. The veterans point out that most are futile and serve only to terrify the civilians, while generating sympathy for the resistance.

......Sgt Dougherty described her squad leader shooting an Iraqi civilian in the back in 2003. "The mentality of my squad leader was like, 'Oh, we have to kill them over here so I don't have to kill them back in Colorado'," she said. "He just seemed to view every Iraqi as a potential terrorist."

......Specialist Philip Chrystal, 23, of Reno, 3rd Battalion, 116th Cavalry Brigade. In Kirkuk and Hawija on 11-month tour beginning November 2004

"I'll tell you the point where I really turned... [there was] this little, you know, pudgy little two-year-old child with the cute little pudgy legs and she has a bullet through her leg... An IED [improvised explosive device] went off, the gun-happy soldiers just started shooting anywhere and the baby got hit. And this baby looked at me... like asking me why. You know, 'Why do I have a bullet in my leg?'... I was just like, 'This is, this is it. This is ridiculous'."

.......Sergeant Patrick Campbell, 29, of Camarillo, California, 256th Infantry Brigade. In Abu Gharth for 11 months beginning November 2004

"Cover your own butt was the first rule of engagement. Someone could look at me the wrong way and I could claim my safety was in threat."

.....Specialist Jeff Englehart, 26, of Grand Junction, Colorado, 3rd Brigade, 1st Infantry. In Baquba for a year beginning February 2004

"[The photo] was very graphic... They open the body bags of these prisoners that were shot in the head and [one soldier has] got a spoon. He's reaching in to scoop out some of his brain, looking at the camera and smiling."
"I just remember thinking, 'I just brought terror to someone under the American flag'."

Sergeant Timothy John Westphal, 31, of Denver, 18th Infantry Brigade, 1st Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour beginning February 2004

"A lot of guys really supported that whole concept that if they don't speak English and they have darker skin, they're not as human as us, so we can do what we want."

Specialist Josh Middleton, 23, of New York City, 2nd Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division. Four-month tour in Baghdad and Mosul beginning December 2004

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2758829.ece

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Bad apples?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Guest]

Just considering your source.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Amazon 7]

Hey Mark,,

The beard looks good on you...

[shropshire 0]

Just un-patriotic whingers.... put them against the wall.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[billvon 2,992]

> Bad apples?

The trials that are underway in just one marine base near here:

Cpl. Trent Thomas: Trial on charges of murder, kidnapping, conspiracy and related offenses in the Awad killing started Monday.

Cpl. Marshall Magincalda: Trial on charges of murder, kidnapping, conspiracy and related offenses starts Monday. A motion hearing is scheduled for Friday.

Sgt. Lawrence Hutchins III: Squad leader charged with murder, kidnapping, conspiracy and related offenses. Trial scheduled to start July 23. A two-day motion hearing is scheduled to begin this morning.

Hospitalman 3rd Class Melson Bacos: Pleaded guilty to kidnapping and conspiracy to kidnap and making false official statements. Sentenced to 12 months in the brig and reduced in rank to Hospitalman Recruit. He was released from the brig earlier this year.

Pfc. John Jodka III: Pleaded guilty to aggravated assault and conspiracy to obstruct justice. Sentenced to 18 months in the brig and reduced in rank to private.

Lance Cpl. Tyler Jackson: Pleaded guilty to aggravated assault and obstruction of justice. Sentenced to 21 months in the brig and reduced in rank to private.

Lance Cpl. Robert Pennington: Pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit premeditated murder and kidnapping and pleaded guilty to kidnapping. Sentenced to eight years in prison and reduced in rank to private.

Lance Cpl. Jerry Shumate Jr.: Pleaded guilty to aggravated assault and conspiracy to obstruct justice. Sentenced to 21 months in the brig and reduced in rank to private.

Lance Cpl. Justin Sharratt: Charged with four counts of unpremeditated murder.

Lance Cpl. Stephen Tatum: Charged with two counts of unpremeditated murder and four counts of negligent homicide.

1st Lt. Andrew Grayson: Charged with dereliction of duty, making a false statement and obstruction of justice.

Sgt. Frank Wuterich: Charged with 13 counts of unpremeditated murder, soliciting another to commit an offense and making a false statement. Article 32 hearing tentatively set to begin in August.

Sgt. Sanick Dela Cruz: Charged with five counts of unpremeditated murder and making a false statement. Charges were dropped in April in exchange for testimony against other defendants.

[Skyrad 0]

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Just considering your source.

mh
.

My source in this case is The Independent, a national newspaper in the UK. THEIR source is The Nation magazine and THEIR source is US combat vets of the US military. I looked and found this link...

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges

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A Note on Methodology

The Nation interviewed fifty combat veterans, including forty soldiers, eight marines and two sailors, over a period of seven months beginning in July 2006. To find veterans willing to speak on the record about their experiences in Iraq, we sent queries to organizations dedicated to US troops and their families, including Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, the antiwar groups Military Families Speak Out, Veterans for Peace and Iraq Veterans Against the War and the prowar group Vets for Freedom. The leaders of IVAW and Paul Rieckhoff, the founder of IAVA, were especially helpful in putting us in touch with Iraq War veterans. Finally, we found veterans through word of mouth, as many of those we interviewed referred us to their military friends.

To verify their military service, when possible we obtained a copy of each interviewee's DD Form 214, or the Certificate of Release or Discharge From Active Duty, and in all cases confirmed their service with the branch of the military in which they were enlisted. Nineteen interviews were conducted in person, while the rest were done over the phone; all were tape-recorded and transcribed; all but five interviewees (most of those currently on active duty) were independently contacted by fact checkers to confirm basic facts about their service in Iraq. Of those interviewed, fourteen served in Iraq from 2003 to 2004, twenty from 2004 to 2005 and two from 2005 to 2006. Of the eleven veterans whose tours lasted less than one year, nine served in 2003, while the others served in 2004 and 2005.

The ranks of the veterans we interviewed ranged from private to captain, though only a handful were officers. The veterans served throughout Iraq, but mostly in the country's most volatile areas, such as Baghdad, Tikrit, Mosul, Falluja and Samarra.

During the course of the interview process, five veterans turned over photographs from Iraq, some of them graphic, to corroborate their claims.

Yours is a fair question, I think theirs is a fair response.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Darius11 12]

It would be great if we learned from our mistakes but ignoring what we don’t want to believe seems to be the common trait.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[shropshire 0]

No officers on that list..... are there any in trials?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[idrankwhat 0]

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> Bad apples?

The trials that are underway .....

The list doesn't go very far up the chain does it?

[billvon 2,992]

>The list doesn't go very far up the chain does it?

Nope. Shit doesn't roll uphill.

[cwn 0]

There is one low level officer.

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1st Lt. Andrew Grayson: Charged with dereliction of duty, making a false statement and obstruction of justice.

[mnealtx 0]

I suppose Jesse MacBeth couldn't be reached for comment...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[GQ_jumper 4]

Specialist Philip Chrystal, 23, of Reno, 3rd Battalion, 116th Cavalry Brigade. In Kirkuk and Hawija on 11-month tour beginning November 2004

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116th Brigade was in Kirkuk in 04??? and their soldiers are from Reno? Well two little things about that, first off to my knowledge the 116th wasn't in kirkuk, ever, and second I never realized that the Idaho National Guard recruited people from Reno. Typically when people move they transfer NG units.

A lot of these stories stink of bullshit

***"I'll tell you the point where I really turned... [there was] this little, you know, pudgy little two-year-old child with the cute little pudgy legs and she has a bullet through her leg... An IED [improvised explosive device] went off, the gun-happy soldiers just started shooting anywhere and the baby got hit. And this baby looked at me... like asking me why. You know, 'Why do I have a bullet in my leg?'... I was just like, 'This is, this is it. This is ridiculous'."

A two year old took a round to the leg, a leg that small and it was still attached. And the two year old, just sat their and looked at this soldier? Yeah ok.


I'm not saying that there aren't bad apples who have done bad things in Iraq and Afghanistan, but these stories in particular seem pretty fuckin fake. I wouldn't be surprised if you looked up the past deployment schedule for the units listed and it didn't even match up with the dates of these incidents.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[dorbie 0]

When the finger points at the moon the fool points at the finger.

We're fighting an enemy who's stated policy and actions target civilians extensively. In the midst of this we have a few isolated incidents being over-reported and even exaggerated and several ARE being prosecuted.

If you give a shit about Iraqi civilians instead of faking it for political fodder you better pray we don't leave too soon because there will ensue a blood bath that will make the current situation look like a picnic.

I find it just amazing that the Independent which has worked tirelessly to get us out of Iraq and abandon the civilians there to murder and mayhem gets all weepy about some isolated incidents even as the enemy bombs of those they'd have us hand the country over to murder hundreds in the street, and that's just a pale foreshadowing of what they would do.

God save the Iraqis from these naive pencil pushing Boy Scouts.

[GQ_jumper 4]

We're fighting an enemy who's stated policy and actions target civilians extensively.

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A quick look into the mindset of the enemy that will help validate your point a bit. Last month I went to one of the local Iraqi Police stations, they claimed they had captured one of the individuals responsible for helping bomb another station in town.

When the other station was attacked it was done via VBIED(vehicle borne IED), the car was parked next to the sation packed with explosives, left, and detonated. It did some damage, nothing major to the station due to the fact that the station was surrounded by Hesco barriers and the vehicle couldn't get close. Well right next to the IP station was an all girls elementary school. The explosion tore the school open and killed quite a few girls, all under the age of 10.

When we questioned the individual he admitted to helping the people who planted the bomb, he had allowed them to stay at his house the night before with the vehicle, his neighboors reported him after they heard what kind of vehicle blew up. We asked him why he helped, he said it was because he wanted to help them kill Americans. We made sure he understood that his attack did little to the Americans there and killed a bunch of little girls. His reply was along the lines of, as long as the explosion hurt a couple of Americans he didn't care what happened to the little girls, it was worth it.

So the eney that everyone seems to have so much sympathy for gives a fuck less what happens to innocents, as long as a few of us are killed in the process. What a bunch of heros

and if anyone is wondering what happened to the asshole, later that week he was transferred to a different station, he is now being held at the same IP station that he helped bomb.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[sundevil777 102]

Kinda like how a young John Kerry was peddling a bunch of made up bullshit to congress a few decades ago. He wanted the public to believe the stories he was peddling characterized the military in general. Same crap.

I'm wish you didn't have to tolerate this sort of venom. Thank you.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[sundevil777 102]

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ignoring what we don’t want to believe seems to be the common trait

Are you claiming to not be guilty of that?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Gawain 0]

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Specialist Philip Chrystal, 23, of Reno, 3rd Battalion, 116th Cavalry Brigade. In Kirkuk and Hawija on 11-month tour beginning November 2004

116th Brigade was in Kirkuk in 04??? and their soldiers are from Reno? Well two little things about that, first off to my knowledge the 116th wasn't in kirkuk, ever, and second I never realized that the Idaho National Guard recruited people from Reno. Typically when people move they transfer NG units.

A lot of these stories stink of bullshit

Actually, that's not uncommon. The 116th has resources in Oregon too. Reno, NV is far enough "north" that it may fall into the AO for OR, ID, WA, etc.

Looking at globalsecurity.org, it says 116th was with 256th at Camp Black Jack and Camp Striker. It looks like incomplete info though.

Also, the 256th is not just an Infantry Brigade, there an MI Co out of Lafayette, LA with the same designator (I don't understand that).

There was certainly wrong doing, but I don't think it was quite like that. Here outside Ft Campbell, they're cleaning up on those guys from the 502nd that raped and burned the young girl. The last guy is in trial now, and he'll probably get the death penalty.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[joedirt 0]

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So the enemy that everyone seems to have so much sympathy for

These sympathizers who see no difference between the U.S. soldier and his enemies are a minority, they just make a lot of noise. Your service is appreciated.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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So the enemy that everyone seems to have so much sympathy for

These sympathizers who see no difference between the U.S. soldier and his enemies are a minority, they just make a lot of noise. Your service is appreciated.

You should leave redneckville dirty then you will find most people consider US soldiers terrorist scum, as they are.

[smooman 0]

you should leave iamasuckerforthemediaville and then you may find that not everything you see or hear is "reported" how it happened

It is only after we have lost everything that we are free to do anything

[nigel99 476]

Please try and not throw out "trolling" lines. A good argument where we thrash out points is cool - but calling names justs detracts from the thread.

I don't woship the US military - but I do find some of this distasteful - especially when your profile has occupation of "dissident" and references to bombing trains/burning flags etc.

I think that there are a large body of us that question the moral authority of the US to "illegally invade" another sovereign nation and I also think that most accept that there are "bad apples" in the US military that break the law. I don't think that anybody can honestly call all US soldiers bad/scum. We can question the percentages and whether we feel that the US military has a higher rate of perpetration than other nations et. We can also question whether the US military tends to "cover up" incidents rather than outing the bad apples.

Sorry for the long rant but you struck a nerve.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Beerlight 0]

And the purpose of posting that article was????

I would bet, put in the same shithole as the U.S/coalition troops who are deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, any person can be pressed into acts like those in that article.

Bless all the military forces in the fight and all the innocents harmed in the process. God save the Queen.

[Skyrad 0]

Errr..yea.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca