"Inventing New Lies About Terrorism" (Strategy Page)

[virgin-burner 1]

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Deny that the US tries to create conditions that are in it's best interest? Nope...been happening for several hundred years now, not just the last six (contrary to popular liberal belief).

I'm also not fool enough to believe that the US is the ONLY nation that does it... they *ALL* do...or try to, anyway.

Right, but just because you're trying to optimize the scenario for your own benefit that doesn't mean that you should ignore the cost to the affected parties. It's how far we are willing to go to get what we want that's cause for debate. This administration is going too far in my opinion. I don't like killing people to make my commute more comfortable or to satisfy wealthy campaign donors or to make my religious zealot buddies happy.

I guess Clinton left Osama alone so he could get the cut of the opium trade along with the Mena Mafia coke ring... equally as plausible as the bullshit reasoning I bolded, above.

well, depending on how twisted you might be, following that line of rationalism, i couldnt agree more with what you have said..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[SpeedRacer 1]

Your post stated that conditions in Iraq before the invasions were "pretty much like the US." That part is not true.

Speed Racer
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[idrankwhat 0]

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Deny that the US tries to create conditions that are in it's best interest? Nope...been happening for several hundred years now, not just the last six (contrary to popular liberal belief).

I'm also not fool enough to believe that the US is the ONLY nation that does it... they *ALL* do...or try to, anyway.

Right, but just because you're trying to optimize the scenario for your own benefit that doesn't mean that you should ignore the cost to the affected parties. It's how far we are willing to go to get what we want that's cause for debate. This administration is going too far in my opinion. I don't like killing people to make my commute more comfortable or to satisfy wealthy campaign donors or to make my religious zealot buddies happy.

I guess Clinton left Osama alone so he could get the cut of the opium trade along with the Mena Mafia coke ring... equally as plausible as the bullshit reasoning I bolded, above.

I was referring to our petroleum and cheap import throw away lifestyle, our corporately owned legislative and executive branches (working on the third) and AIPAC. But if you want to flaunt your Clinton fetish, go right ahead. I'll give it the attention it deserves.

[mnealtx 0]

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Deny that the US tries to create conditions that are in it's best interest? Nope...been happening for several hundred years now, not just the last six (contrary to popular liberal belief).

I'm also not fool enough to believe that the US is the ONLY nation that does it... they *ALL* do...or try to, anyway.

Right, but just because you're trying to optimize the scenario for your own benefit that doesn't mean that you should ignore the cost to the affected parties. It's how far we are willing to go to get what we want that's cause for debate. This administration is going too far in my opinion. I don't like killing people to make my commute more comfortable or to satisfy wealthy campaign donors or to make my religious zealot buddies happy.

I guess Clinton left Osama alone so he could get the cut of the opium trade along with the Mena Mafia coke ring... equally as plausible as the bullshit reasoning I bolded, above.

I was referring to our petroleum and cheap import throw away lifestyle, our corporately owned legislative and executive branches (working on the third) and AIPAC. But if you want to flaunt your Clinton fetish, go right ahead. I'll give it the attention it deserves.

As I gave your Bush fetish the attention *it* deserved. You were doing good up to that point.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[virgin-burner 1]

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Your post stated that conditions in Iraq before the invasions were "pretty much like the US." That part is not true.

yea, but it was better than it is now. that part is also true!

sorry for following rant: why the fuck is it, that the general population of the usa can only come up with fuck-comments like the above. no reasoning, only denying, not getting into the question, the assumption nor WHAT THE FUCK EVER???
that makes me go crazy!! that part is not true. ok, one said it was like the us before invasion took place. myself said, ok, not like the us, but it was better than it is now. two points to start off from. nah, only stated that it was like the us, "that part is not true". yea, fuck yea, so what the fuck? was it saddam not being in charge anymore, or the us invading that damn sunburnt, oil-flooded country? and as it comes in handy, shitloads of oil, shitloads of contracts for us-companies, but, how funny is that, no schools, no water, no nothing for the people living there. but plenty of bucks made upon their heads..

now, if you're not very ignorant.. you make a statement covering all the above questions and assumptions of mine.. coz then its a discussion. not some whingy-that-part-is-not-true-and-you've-hurt-my-feelin's-and-i'll-call-my-lawywer-to-sue-you-and-then-my-mommy..

fuck that!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[NCclimber 0]

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One only needs to do a small bit of research to see what the CIA has done to start wars, to create death squads and to install dictators that will be puppets for the federal government.

Not refuting that the CIA has done many vile things, but what has it done to start wars, create death squads or install dictators since the end of the Cold War?

[idrankwhat 0]

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Not refuting that the CIA has done many vile things, but what has it done to start wars, create death squads or install dictators since the end of the Cold War?

How about enabling the cherry picking of information to start a war? Of course maybe that wasn't so much for the war idea but more for the book deal and the medal

[Darius11 12]

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do you make all this shit up as you go along, or do you read it up specifically to annoy us!?

the truth seems to be a bit painful???

You seem to be having a hard time accepting the truth.


The reason given for the invasion of Iraq was WMD. They were never found? The ones found were not useable and even the administration said that was not what they were looking for or claiming Iraq had.

Can you deny this?


The Iraqi people did not want to be invaded, and had a better standard of living before we invaded.

Can you deny this?


As a result of this war which according to the initial point was not a war we should have started. Tens of thousands, or by some estimates hundreds of thousands of people have been killed, this simply would have not happened if we did not start this war.


Can you deny this?



There was NO LINK according to this administration between Terrorist and Iraq, there is now thank to our invasion.

Please tell me if any of these points are wrong a lie or only valid on moveon.org?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[normiss 806]

yea...wasn't there some huge effort to "colonize" the entire planet many years ago...once the Brits figured out how to navigate the planet, they wanted to rule the world!

[mnealtx 0]

I keep HEARING libs talking about how great things were in Iraq when Hussein was in charge...but somehow, that's all they can say - they can't ever come up with specifics.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Skyrad 0]

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...and on 3/11, the terrorists "purchased" submission from Spain, effectively taking that block out anti-terrorism-cooperative. The UK is under a methodical assault now. Interesting that France has not been targeted, their NATO contribution in Afghanistan has not been insignificant. Aha, but they aren't in Iraq...I Iraq is pretty important after all.

Good point

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[NCclimber 0]

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Not refuting that the CIA has done many vile things, but what has it done to start wars, create death squads or install dictators since the end of the Cold War?

How about enabling the cherry picking of information to start a war? Of course maybe that wasn't so much for the war idea but more for the book deal and the medal

Sorry you seem to have a problem with my post. Wasn't the CIA established to give the US an "off the books" weapon in the COLD WAR??? Seems like their autonomy ratcheted up a few notches after the Soviets started sending missiles to Cuba.

This thread digression stemmed from someone asserting "Saddam was not the nicest guy but, when you compare him to what our own secret police do" That's DO. as in the present tense... not the Cold War nastiness from 20 to 60 years ago.

[Skyrad 0]

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Inventing New Lies

July 24, 2007: One of the largely unspoken grudges Europe has against the United States is how the American reaction to September 11, 2001 (the invasion of Afghanistan, followed by going into Iraq) caused their informal, but quite effective, truce with terrorists to be broken. Ever since the first wave of Palestinian terrorism in the 1960s and 70s, European nations worked out deals where they would provide safe haven for terrorist organizations, and welfare benefits for terrorists and their families, as long as there were no attacks on the host countries. This was largely successful, despite complaints from the United States, and the nations the terrorists were operating against. Even the United States was guilty of this, as was revealed when the perpetrators of the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center were found to be led by a Moslem cleric wanted in Egypt for terrorism. The Egyptians had been complaining for years that the United States was granting political asylum to terrorists, but American officials insisted the men were victims of religious persecution in Egypt.

All the above I agree with and believe to be true.

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The U.S. never completely agreed with the European attitude towards terrorists, and this made the United States a primary target of al Qaeda.

This I dissagree with I'll explain in a minute.

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The Islamic terrorists believed that their refuge in Europe would eventually be turned into a base for attacking their hosts. That was speeded up by the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and European support for the United States in the wake of the 2001 attacks. Many Europeans believe that if the United States had shown more restraint after 2001, the terrorist threat in Europe could have been much reduced.

True.

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The European belief is that, while the invasion of Afghanistan angered many Moslems, the invasion of Iraq really enraged them.

Also true, throughout the Muslim world there was actually an understanding that the US had to destroy Al Q and after their refusal to give them up the Taliban also. It was seen as an justified attack.

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In any event, as Islamic terrorists went active in Europe, there was a great burst of cooperation. European counter-terrorism agencies had long been asking for reforms. Mainly, these reforms consisted of three things;

- Arrest warrants for terrorists in another country that would be executed immediately, without interference, and delays, from local courts.

- Sharing of information on terrorists, to include tracking movements through different European countries.

- Coordination of efforts, which included an official who presided over a pan-European organization that had access to all (or at least most) terrorist information all nations possessed, and kept all European Union nations aware of what everyone else was up to.

Generally true but co operation was before on a more informal basis but did exist.

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These three actions made it much more difficult for Islamic terrorists to operate in Europe. Before, a terrorist could just cross a border, and effectively disappear from the police radar, but still be in Europe. The coordination effort also made it clear that Islamic terrorists were far more numerous and better organized than any European police or intelligence agency realized.

There is a big difference between the police radar and the Security Service radar.

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For decades, it had been official policy in most European nations to let Moslem migrants do pretty much what they wanted, and to not even collect much information on what was going on inside those communities.

Muslim migrants have the same rights as any other migrants and as such do whatever they like just like Jewish migrants or Catholic ones. As for the second part of that statement it is also incorrect, again I'll explain in a minute.

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Despite the European intelligence agencies now realizing that they had a serious Islamic terror threat even before 2001, European politicians and media still cling to the old ideas that negotiation and understanding would have kept Europe safe,

They realised before, its just that then the treat was generally under control as is demonstrated by the lack or sparsness of such attack that we now see in the UK and elsewhere.

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were it not for those reckless Americans.

Obviously the actions in Iraq have had a negative effect on the domestic security of Europe.

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Politicians and journalists would rather invent new lies, to justify the old ones, than admit that they had made a mistake.

Not based in fact or reality...Spin.

Ok, so the one thing this article conviniantly forgets is that it was the US and UK that built and support suckled and trained the Islamist fanatics in the first place. Once again the chickens have come home to roost. 'We' used them in the proxy war against the Soviets from which they got their experience and confidence along with the fact that they were allowed to operate with without hinderence on UK soil. You dopn't seriously belive that the US had no say in the matter do you? Where do you think the money and the Stingers came from?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[virgin-burner 1]

what about a

"""***/***G-R-O-U-P-***-/-***-H-U-G***/***"""

now?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[idrankwhat 0]

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Sorry you seem to have a problem with my post. Wasn't the CIA established to give the US an "off the books" weapon in the COLD WAR??? Seems like their autonomy ratcheted up a few notches after the Soviets started sending missiles to Cuba.

This thread digression stemmed from someone asserting "Saddam was not the nicest guy but, when you compare him to what our own secret police do" That's DO. as in the present tense... not the Cold War nastiness from 20 to 60 years ago.

I don't have a problem with your post. You asked a question about the CIA and starting wars post cold war and I gave you an answer. As for your last point, I really don't know that we can speak too precisely on extraordinary rendition. There's some nasty anecdotal evidence from a few people but I think the rest of it is pretty well locked up. Then there's the issue of security contractors, some of that has been pretty horrific as well. Until recently I hadn't ever heard of anyone being beaten in the legs so extremely that they actually died.
Yea, the posts you're responding to overstate their point but they're not completely off the mark.

[SpeedRacer 1]

"They had flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles"

Speed Racer
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[rushmc 23]

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do you make all this shit up as you go along, or do you read it up specifically to annoy us!?

the truth seems to be a bit painful???

You seem to be having a hard time accepting the truth.


The reason given for the invasion of Iraq was WMD. Not true. It was ONE of the reasonsThey were never found?Yes, but not the kind they adverstised or invisioned finding The ones found were not useable and even the administration said that was not what they were looking for or claiming Iraq had.

Can you deny this?


The Iraqi people did not want to be invaded, and had a better standard of living before we invaded.

Can you deny this?Irrelavant


As a result of this war which according to the initial point was not a war we should have started. Tens of thousands, or by some estimates hundreds of thousands of people have been killed, this simply would have not happened if we did not start this war.These numbers have been thrown out and are usless and unprovable. While the lose of one life is too many this is war. Our troops have injured or killed less than would have any other army not to mention the fact that most of the civilian losses have been caused by others from the mid east, not the troops. And they do that for two reasons. 1 to destabalize the region and 2 to keep those who think as you do on thier side


Can you deny this?



There was NO LINK according to this administration between Terrorist and Iraq, there is now thank to our invasion.No DIRECT link yes. However, links to al Queda support have been documented

Please tell me if any of these points are wrong a lie or only valid on moveon.org?

all answered above as have been stated on this site many times

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Darius11 12]

I am not a liberal but a realest.

Also someone already mentions Electricity, schools, jobs, no car bombs, thousands of people dead who were alive, an infrastructure, jobs, no war all those things were good things that are no longer there.

Is that a good enough list?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[virgin-burner 1]

seems to be to difficult to understand..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[freethefly 6]

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One only needs to do a small bit of research to see what the CIA has done to start wars, to create death squads and to install dictators that will be puppets for the federal government.

Not refuting that the CIA has done many vile things, but what has it done to start wars, create death squads or install dictators since the end of the Cold War?

As soon as someone comes to their senses, the information will be known. Of course, whoever leaks out their dirty little secrets will be called a traitor.
Given the vile history of the CIA, I seriously doubt that they have given up torturing for boyscout merit badges for helping little old ladies to cross the street.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Darius11 12]

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There was NO LINK according to this administration between Terrorist and Iraq, there is now thank to our invasion.No DIRECT link yes. However, links to al Queda support have been documented

We have had links to the same organization as well as many others that are questionable to say the least .

I guess what I find unnerving is this; when we do it it is always ok but when others do it they are evil.

Why is that?

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The reason given for the invasion of Iraq was WMD. Not true. It was ONE of the reasons

The main reason.
DO you remember the speech to the UN? We are in eminent danger I believe nuclear weapons were mentioned as well.

If you wish to mention UN violation there are plenty of countries who have more violation then Iraq that we constantly support.

Again why is that?

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As a result of this war which according to the initial point was not a war we should have started. Tens of thousands, or by some estimates hundreds of thousands of people have been killed, this simply would have not happened if we did not start this war.These numbers have been thrown out and are usless and unprovable. While the lose of one life is too many this is war. Our troops have injured or killed less than would have any other army not to mention the fact that most of the civilian losses have been caused by others from the mid east, not the troops. And they do that for two reasons. 1 to destabalize the region and 2 to keep those who think as you do on thier side

Like any argument the libs have the pendulum on one side and the conservative see the pendulum on the other. But even the most conservative estimates put the number at more then 30,000, to 40,000 people.
As for them being killed by car bombs well FACT they weren’t getting killed by car bombs until we decided to invade.


I have to mention this as I often do because I do agree with Mike on one point.
That we are doing what many other countries have done, or would do if they had the power.

But please don’t try to make it seem as if we are the white knight who is all good and pure trying to help people. It is more like we are the Alpha dogs who will kill, and destroy any thing we like so we can have comfortable lives, and our government will say any line of bull shit so the general population can feel good about them selves.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[freethefly 6]

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Your post stated that conditions in Iraq before the invasions were "pretty much like the US." That part is not true.

The majority of the people lived day by day with no problems. Pretty much like here in the U.S. or anyother country. Most kept their noses clean and did not try and topple the government. They had no problem with Saddam. Same as here in the U.S.. Try and topple the federal government and you will find yourself in a deep, dark prison cell never to see sunlight again. The same in all other countries.
With more than 80% of Iraqis hating the U.S. for what it did to them, their country, their children, their hospitals, their schools, everything they had taken from them, their doors being kicked in daily, their families living in fear of being taken away by U.S. soldiers, I think that the U.S. only created 80% more Iraqis who are more likely to side with the insurgents.
Some Americans wonder why we are the most hated people on the planet.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[virgin-burner 1]

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Some Americans wonder why we are the most hated people on the planet.

which is kinda sad.. as i believe that the majority of the people are quite nice in fact, but nonetheless, their leaders political agenda sucks big time..!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[NCclimber 0]

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Most kept their noses clean and did not try and topple the government. They had no problem with Saddam.

Especially the Kurds and the Shiites.

[freethefly 6]

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Some Americans wonder why we are the most hated people on the planet.

which is kinda sad.. as i believe that the majority of the people are quite nice in fact, but nonetheless, their leaders political agenda sucks big time..!

True. The vast majority of the people worldwide are not mean people. It seems that the governments that we are under make us all appeare to be bad people. For years all Russians were viewed as murdering, godless heathens bent on killing every breathing American. The federal government told us this (I think that the Russian government told their people the same lies). We believed our government. Fact is, is that most Russians are very good people. It is the years of propaganda being pounded into our heads from very young untill death. What else are we to believe? It was only after traveling around the world and meeting people did I realize that they were the same as myself and only wanted what the rest wanted - to be left alone, to be respected, to be allowed to live without fear. Governments have a way of taking that all away in the name of control. Make the people fear another group of people and they will fall in line to carryout the will of the government. WHAT!!!! Those people across the ocean don't like me???? They want me dead???? WOW, we better kill them first.
See what I mean. Pound it long enough and it only gets worst.
Al Qaeda is the product of the CIA. The name Al Qaeda comes from a CIA terrorist traing camp called Al Qaeda. The words mean "The Base". The feds would have you to believe that Al Qaeda just arose from nothing.
You reap what you sow. If you don't want an out of control crop, you best tend to the fields. Obvious that the feds left the fields to be overrun by bad weeds. So, who's to blame.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young