Addicted to the almighty

[georgerussia 0]

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However, I suspect that you have a conscience which tells you something different. Even if you don't admit it on a public forum.

As my friend likes to say, when you talk to the God, it is called prayer. But when God starts talking to you, it is called catatonic type schizophrenia.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[SpeedRacer 1]

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If Christianity is challenged there is only one logical outcome...

Fundamentalist-Atheist thinking right there.

"In spiritual matters, OF COURSE any rational thinking person could ONLY arrive at the same conclusions I have!"

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What exactly have you done to "Challenge" ideas to arrive at your faith thoughtfully????

More than I could explain on a skydiving web forum.

But I could recommend some good books if you're really interested.

Speed Racer
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[pajarito 0]

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As my friend likes to say, when you talk to the God, it is called prayer. But when God starts talking to you, it is called catatonic type schizophrenia.

You don't have a conscience that tells you right from wrong? When you do wrong, are you not aware that it is wrong and do it anyway for selfish purposes? What is it inside you that tells you that you aught to do or not do something even if it may not be in your best interest but may help someone else? Do you not possess that? If so, where did that come from? I say it is God communicating with us and it does not make us schizophrenic if we acknowledge it.

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For example, some people wrote to me saying, ‘isn’t what you call the Moral Law simply our herd instinct and hasn’t it been developed just like all our other instincts?’ Now I do not deny that we may have a herd instinct: but that is not what I mean by the Moral Law. We all know what it feels like to be prompted by instinct – by mother love, or sexual instinct, or the instinct for food. It means that you feel a strong want or desire to act in a certain way. And, of course, we sometimes do feel just that sort of desire to help another person: and no doubt that desire is due to the herd instinct. But feeling a desire to help is quite different from feeling that you ought to help whether you want to or not. Supposing you hear a cry for help from a man in danger. You will probably feel two desires – one a desire to give help (due to your herd instinct), the other a desire to keep out of danger (due to the instinct for self-preservation). But you will find inside you, in addition to these two impulses, a third thing which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help, and suppress the impulse to run away. Now this thing that judges between two instincts, that decides which should be encouraged, cannot itself be either of them. You might as well say that the sheet of music which tells you, at a given moment, to play one note on the piano and not another, is itself one of the notes on the keyboard. The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play: our instincts are merely the keys.
--C.S. Lewis

[JackC 0]

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If Christianity is challenged there is only one logical outcome...

Fundamentalist-Atheist thinking right there.

If you've actually got a successful logical argument for God, you'll owe a biblical amount of beer.

[beowulf 1]

conscience is very different from person to person and is even much more different between cultures. It is hardly evidence of god, but evidence of a subconscious set of rules that was developed from birth. Your evidence of god is very subjective.

[pajarito 0]

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conscience is very different from person to person and is even much more different between cultures. It is hardly evidence of god, but evidence of a subconscious set of rules that was developed from birth. Your evidence of god is very subjective.

The degree to which one listens to their conscience varies between individuals but it is present.

[beowulf 1]

I wasn't disputing the presence of a conscience, but that they are different from person to person and culture to culture. If it were really god speaking to humans through their conscience then wouldn't he be consistently the same no matter the culture or person?

You consistently have very arbitrary and subjective "evidence" for the existence of god. How can it be taken seriously if there is no consistency?

[freethefly 6]

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as atheism is but an inverted religion

although very true, that'll get under the skin of a handful of the zealous atheists here

I don't think that is accurate. I am not aware of any atheists organizations whos goal is to make the world atheist or to convert people to atheism. As far as I can tell
there is not much in common between atheism and religions.

It has to be accurate. Such as it takes faith to believe in a god inwhich one cannot produce actual proof of such, it also takes faith to believe that there is no god inwhich one cannot produce actual proof that there isn't. Faith is the cornerstone of religion. Also, just because most atheist are not bound and determined to convert everyone to atheism does not mean that it is not a religion of sort. Many religions are not out to convert the world. I've never met a Jew that tried to convert me. In fact, every Jewish person that I have met not once ever brought up their belief. I cannot say that for Christians and Atheist.
Myself, I am agnostic and sway more towards Taoism as I really like the princibles of the Tao Teh Ching.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[beowulf 1]

Now that is just silly. I don't have faith that god doesn't exist. I don't think he exists because I have no reason to think he exists. Does the cookie monster exist? If there is no evidence of the existence of something then there is no need to have faith in the non existence of something.

[beowulf 1]

Now if anyone can actually prove to me with actual evidence that can be repeated that any god exists then I will change my thoughts on this matter. To date there has never been any proof of any god. If there were proof or evidence then there would be no need for faith.

[philh 0]

"Are you telling me that Marx' athiesm had no influence on his economic philosophy, or the mechanics involved in achieving his desired end?
Communism is based on Marxism and forced Atheism was part of the package. The State is the supreme power. "

I have studied Marxist economic theory but not his life so I have no idea 1) whetehr he even was an atheist and 2) if he was, whether it influenced his economics. He certainly was very criticial of religion but that does not mean he was an atheist. Even if he was, why is this in any way relevant? A state controlled economy has existed in both theocratic soceities and non theocratic soceities. there is no necessary connection. Chrisitians have supported MArxism as well as atheists.

What I would say is that a market economy assumes the complexity of economic life can arise from the bottom up without a central planner. A command economy assumes it cannot. What's interesting is that if you agree that the complexities of a market economy dont need a central planning agent you are saying order can arise without a directing agent, this is essentially the argument that evolution makes. Many economists are now in fact using biological evolution to understand how markets work. It seems to me that if one rejects these notions of spontaneous complexity without a central designer , one is more likely to reject a market economy not less.

[Royd 0]

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conscience is very different from person to person and is even much more different between cultures. It is hardly evidence of god, but evidence of a subconscious set of rules that was developed from birth. Your evidence of god is very subjective.

But we've been told by some on here that they don't need any outside instruction in doing the right thing because it's built into their very being. Are you saying that mankind does need an overriding source of law to understand right from wrong? If so, who would
be the one to establish this set of laws that would apply to every person?
Surely not a group of men. One man who is lazy, sees no problem with helping himself to another man's wealth. Some horndog doesn't see a problem with screwing your wife because it satisfies his immediate need. Who amongst us is nuetral enough to make a law that doesn't lean in the favor of one group or another?

[jakee 1,497]

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Who amongst us is nuetral enough to make a law that doesn't lean in the favor of one group or another?

No one. Which is why, to my knowledge, there is not and has never been a perfect set of laws.

I fail to see how this argument in any way supports your position.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[beowulf 1]

Each society develops their own set of written and unwritten laws. Not all laws are neutral. Humans came up with the laws.

[jakee 1,497]

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Surely not a group of men. One man who is lazy, sees no problem with helping himself to another man's wealth. Some horndog doesn't see a problem with screwing your wife because it satisfies his immediate need.

Poor reasoning. You start off by saying a group of men, then use examples of what one man would do if he could. A community will generally come up with rules that protect the community as a whole - and to most people being protected from thieves is more valuable than permission to be a thief. You don't need divine guidance to figure that out.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Royd 0]

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Many economists are now in fact using biological evolution to understand how markets work. It seems to me that if one rejects these notions of spontaneous complexity without a central designer , one is more likely to reject a market economy not less.

I would argue that believing that you were created by God and you have been given specific gifts, talents and drives that you will rise to your place in life. Some people run a small business, and work a 10 hr. day, and are happy. Others have the drive to run a large company.

Socialist thinking takes the fruits of a man's efforts away from him and gives it to someone else who has not earned it. How does that fit in with the laws of natural selection?

[Royd 0]

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Who amongst us is nuetral enough to make a law that doesn't lean in the favor of one group or another?

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No one. Which is why, to my knowledge, there is not and has never been a perfect set of laws.

I fail to see how this argument in any way supports your position.

What problems do you find with the Ten commandments, or this one, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."?

[freethefly 6]

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Socialist thinking takes the fruits of a man's efforts away from him and gives it to someone else who has not earned it. How does that fit in with the laws of natural selection?

I think that you are confused on what socialism is.
Marx defined socialism as the road to democracy. In a democracy the majority rules. So is it in a socialist society. Marx and Engels aim was to make the working class the ruling class. In a communist society the worker is only a worker and has no say in society. The Stalinist perverted the ideas of Marx. The communist wanted full control over the people.
Communism is more in line with conservatism. As communism is authoritarian, so is conservatism. Your neo-cons wish for a New Deal type of socialism and more regulation on the people. Conservatives are more socialist than they wish to admit. The only difference between a true conservative and a true socialist is who gets to weild the power. Conservatives believe that the government should have the final say as where the socialist believe that the working class should have the final say. In that, the conservative is more like a communist and the democrat more like a socialist.

Bear in mind that I am not offending but, I have no idea how well read you are or what level of education you have obtained but, from what I can tell from your past post is that you have done little or no research at all. You seem only to parrot what you have heard from the likes of Tom Delay or that of the Southern Baptist.
I highly recommend that you do some intense research on your own or sign up for a political science class at a (GASP!!!!) community college.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[JackC 0]

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What problems do you find with the Ten commandments, or this one, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."?

Oh I dunno, take number 2 for example. The one about graven images. Is that really the second most important rule in God's book? Really? Don't you think that almost any other rule would be a bit more important? I'd think even one that says "try not to deep fry all your food" would top a prohibition on effigies.

Oh and how are you supposed to treat your neighbour if you're into masochism and he's not?

[Channman 2]

> Bear in mind that I am not OFFENDING but, I have no idea how well read you are or what level of education you have obtained but, from what I can tell from your past post is that you have done little or no research at all. You seem only to parrot what you have heard from the likes of Tom Delay or that of the Southern Baptist.
I highly recommend that you do some intense research on your own or sign up for a political science class at a (GASP!!!!) community college.

And this coming from what, an Educated ASS? As Captain Hook would often say, "Bad Form". I will impose a self banning for the remainder of the week and all next week for being so to the point.

[freethefly 6]

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"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

From what I garner from your past postings is that you rather kick those who are down on their luck and need a hand up. I, also, get the impression that you have a profound hatred for women. I take it, you only use such qoutes as "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." only because you think it makes you look good, not because you actually believe it.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[beowulf 1]

aaaahhh name calling how original!

[freethefly 6]

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> Bear in mind that I am not OFFENDING but, I have no idea how well read you are or what level of education you have obtained but, from what I can tell from your past post is that you have done little or no research at all. You seem only to parrot what you have heard from the likes of Tom Delay or that of the Southern Baptist.
I highly recommend that you do some intense research on your own or sign up for a political science class at a (GASP!!!!) community college.

And this coming from what, an Educated ASS? As Captain Hook would often say, "Bad Form". I will impose a self banning for the remainder of the week and all next week for being so to the point.

I only stated my impression. He's free to state his impression of me. I didn't call him an ASS.
I actually like Royd. He has given me plenty to think about and has altered my view from time to time. Same as others on this board has.
Educated ASS? Oh, more like a smart ASS or as others may say, dumb ASS. Or, simply "What an ASS". Hell, what do I know. I only went to a community college.
By the way, I was in the liberal arts department. My major was journalism. I had to dropout after two years due to illness but, I do hope to pick it up again, by next summer. I am considering a change to a graphic art major, however.
I am sorry if I come across as extremely blunt. I cannot help it but, will keep in mind to try and be less.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[georgerussia 0]

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You don't have a conscience that tells you right from wrong?

I do. However I do not force anyone else to act, and I do not judge their acts according to MY conscience. After all, people are born and grown up in different cultures, and if you were born in some African tribe, your conscience would tell you that eating your enemies is absolutely right thing to do.

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When you do wrong, are you not aware that it is wrong and do it anyway for selfish purposes?

Have you ever broken the speed limit?

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What is it inside you that tells you that you aught to do or not do something even if it may not be in your best interest but may help someone else?

This is called education and experience.

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Do you not possess that? If so, where did that come from?

From your parents and society. Again, some time ago a lot of Christians didn't have any problem with having slaves, killing and torturing non-Christians to death, and lying to us.

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I say it is God communicating with us and it does not make us schizophrenic if we acknowledge it.

So you're saying that one hundred years ago your God communicated with you that it is acceptable to discriminate against some races, and now the God tells us different?

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For example, some people wrote to me saying, ‘isn’t what you call the Moral Law simply our herd instinct and hasn’t it been developed just like all our other instincts?’

Nope, the Moral law is result of society, it depends on society, and differs between societies. Even with basic things like "Thou shall not murder" - while almost every society protects its members, some societies do not expand this protection outside their members, and some societies even teach that it is not only acceptable, but also desirable to murder the people who have different beliefs, and that it is the only way to go to Heaven.

Even if you look through our society, you'll see that there is no single Moral law, and almost every individuum's moral is different. Ask the people's opinion about aborts, gay marriage, contraception, premartial sex, masturbation, euthanasia - and you'll see it yourself.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Channman 2]

Damn, Now you got me filling like an ASS. And I'm suppose to be banned from this site for the next week and a half.

My apologies for not being more civil in my response.