jakee 1,497 #176 August 9, 2007 QuoteQuote Where does it say He needs your acceptance? By the way, hell is a place of punishment set aside for sinners. So lets not forget, currently the world population is around 6,610,245,606, now of that 2,039 million believe in the same God as you, which is about 32% of the global population. In fact, far fewer people than that actually believe in Jesus in what Pajarito says is the 'neccesary' way. Strangely enough, almost all of them are located in the southern US.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pmw515 0 #177 August 9, 2007 QuoteQuoteNot a drug, possibly a form of delusional psychosis but I'm not qualified to say.Who was it that said,"Religion is the opiate of the people."? His philosophy has really stood the test of time, hasn't it? Karl Marx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #178 August 10, 2007 philh you have put a lot of thought and energy into this topic, I AM IMPRESSED and I can't say that I don't agree with many of your points. One of the problems here is that I am not talking about what you are talking about, so I am not sure how to connect our two view points without changing the subject. One of the strangest paradoxes I have seen regarding Spirituality is that truly good people and truly evil people participate; and sometimes it is very difficult to tell the difference. I don't understand it, but it happens. And why do people get so upset about the possibility that every one might not go to heaven? I don't hear a clamor concerning how few sea turtles make it to maturity and a happy productive life. Or any other species for that matter, the success rate is pretty low. Why are we so special or any different? I will agree the thought of you not going to heaven is upsetting, but I am not going to reject the TRUTH that I know because of that fact. The difference of course, is that the sea turtle doesn't have a choice, WE DO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #179 August 10, 2007 >if the bible leads you to do bad things (as it has for many, many >people) then the bible is a bad thing. Yes. Then the Bible is a bad thing - for them. Just as it's a good thing for many others. Same with the Koran, or the Vedas, or indeed any such book of faith. I think even the most ardent biblical supporters agree that there are parts of the Bible that are (to use a subjective word) bad. Paj has explained these parts as being a part of ancient canonical law that clearly no longer apply; other people have different justifications for ignoring that part or this part. And again, that's all fine. It's what you do with it that counts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #180 August 10, 2007 "philh you have put a lot of thought and energy into this topic, I AM IMPRESSED" thanks you very much for your kind words. "One of the strangest paradoxes I have seen regarding Spirituality is that truly good people and truly evil people participate; and sometimes it is very difficult to tell the difference." Why is that a paradox? I dont know if you know much about science. But let me try and explain a key point. Lets assume you want to know if x causes y. You observe x going up and you observe y going up. You might conclude x is causing y to go up, but to be confident you might be able to do this experiment. If you can force x to go down you should observe y to go down if x is really causing y. But if you move x down and there is no change in the movement of y you can be pretty confident that x is not the cause of y. What is the relevance of all this to your quote? It should be very obviosu that if spirtuality/belief in god leads some poeple to good and some to evil then our sense of right and wrong has nothing to do with spirtuality or belief in god. The often quoted argument that wihtout god one has no morality is debunked. "And why do people get so upset about the possibility that every one might not go to heaven? I don't hear a clamor concerning how few sea turtles make it to maturity and a happy productive life." Well it depends on who you are reffering to getting upset. As an atheist I find that the Christian system of justicce - that those that dont believe in jesus are tortured in hell for all eternity - utterly awful. This belief is also very dangerous as it provides a rational for almost any attroicty; after all, what harm is it to kill a few people if it avoids ever lasting torture for the rest of us? Of course we are upset by the belief and its consequences, its not the reality that upsets as we deny that. As for the turtles I visited a turtle sanctuarty in Borneo and saw turtles being launched into the sea. It did upset me that most of them would die. It seemed very cruel, but th bioligcal world can be very cruel. Since I dont believe biological forces are directed by a perosnal agent I dont shout about it. But if one belives that god directs evolution then one must concead that god is very cruel, anyone who has seen an animal getting eaten alive can possibly sympathsie with that. if human being suffer becasue of sin thats one thing, but how can you justify animal suffering if you believe in god? Did they sin as well? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #181 August 10, 2007 QuoteSo lets not forget, currently the world population is around 6,610,245,606, now of that 2,039 million believe in the same God as you, which is about 32% of the global population. Therefore as we stand today a Massive 4.6 BILLION (approx) people of the current population are Hell bound.... Probably even more than that (Matthew 7:13-14, 22). QuoteSeems odd to me thet for a "caring" god, which you claim your god is that he would allow 3/4 of the planets population to "rot" in hell... pretty fucking sadistic if you ask me... QuoteWe will all die because we have broken God’s law. Every one of us is waiting on death row. Instead of standing in moral judgment over Almighty God, we need to judge ourselves according to the Law of God. We will find that we have a multitude of sins and therefore are deserving of punishment. Yet God, out of love, paid the penalty for our sin so we would not have to. --Ray Comfort God is extremely caring and merciful not only because He sent His Son to die in your place but because He is withholding the justice that you & I fully deserve because we have broken the Law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #182 August 10, 2007 Would I be considered extremely caring and merciful if I created a lethal virus and a cure and then infected the entire human population with the lethal virus and only gave the cure to those that do as I say (not as I do)? No, so why do you consider your God to be extremely caring and merciful to have created standards and then to have created humans unable to meet those standards but allow those that worship your God to be forgiven of not meeting those standards ... "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #183 August 10, 2007 these questions have all been covered in depth before. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #184 August 10, 2007 QuoteGod is extremely caring and merciful not only because He sent His Son to die in your place but because He is withholding the justice that you & I fully deserve because we have broken the Law. Sick, sick. sick! "Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, fuckin' ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a SADIST! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER!" - John Milton, The Devil's Advocate . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #185 August 10, 2007 Quote these questions have all been covered in depth before. And yet people continue to justify their faith with statements devoid of logic and reasoning. I feel like I am in Hell! "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #186 August 10, 2007 Quote Would I be considered extremely caring and merciful if I created a lethal virus and a cure and then infected the entire human population with the lethal virus and only gave the cure to those that do as I say (not as I do)? No, so why do you consider your God to be extremely caring and merciful to have created standards and then to have created humans unable to meet those standards but allow those that worship your God to be forgiven of not meeting those standards ... You can’t blame God for your transgression. He created you. He did not make you rebel against Him. Even so, he stepped in and took the punishment you deserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #187 August 10, 2007 Quote You can’t blame God for your transgression. He created you. He did not make you rebel against Him. Even so, he stepped in and took the punishment you deserve. According to you, your God created us unable to live without sinning and then holds us responsible for sinning. Nice God ... Edit: It is no wonder your God would maintain absolute power ... your God would have very few allies and very many enemies."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #188 August 10, 2007 The problem with these threads are that the anti-religious folks are going onto a thread on the internet and asking for answers that can fit onto an internet post. They want spiritual truths that can fit on a bumpersticker. Forget about arguing on the internet. You need to actually pick up some books and read and think about it. The questions of the problem of sin and why bad things can happen to good people on this earth (& many other spiritual questions) have all been dealt with extensively. If you're actually interested, go into the theology/philosophy section of the library and pick up some books on the subject. ( I can recommend some if you like) Then you can at least hear some lucid & thorough thoughts on the subject and decide for yourself. But whatever you decide, spiritual questions are usually not answered by a short sound bite. Go spend some time & do some research & some prayer/meditation/contemplation. (besides, you know what they say about arguing on the internet.) Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #189 August 10, 2007 Quote (besides, you know what they say about arguing on the internet.) It's better than racing boats? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #190 August 10, 2007 QuoteForget about arguing on the internet. You need to actually pick up some books and read and think about it. The questions of the problem of sin and why bad things can happen to good people on this earth (& many other spiritual questions) have all been dealt with extensively. Been there, done that. The questions I have been asking have not been whether a particular God exists (and could not be found in a book). The questions I have been asking are why a person worships a particular God (but would deny a person that does some of the things they claim their God has done)."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #191 August 10, 2007 Quote According to you, your God created us unable to live without sinning and then holds us responsible for sinning. Nice God ... According to the Bible and not me, your God created you as a moral agent capable of relationship. He created you with the ability to choose right from wrong. He imprinted on your heart what is right. You choose to do wrong. You also choose to reject the lifeline that He has thrown you. Quote Edit: It is no wonder your God would maintain absolute power ... your God would have very few allies and very many enemies. God is absolutely sovereign. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #192 August 10, 2007 Quote God is extremely caring and merciful not only because He sent His Son to die in your place but because He is withholding the justice that you & I fully deserve because we have broken the Law. Well, if you deserve going to Hell just because someone committed sins, why don't you go to Hell because you father, your brother or close friend committed sins? If you are held responsible by your God for actions of those who you never seen and have no influence over their actions, this means that you should be held even more responsible for actions of your relatives, as you directly relate to them.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #193 August 10, 2007 QuoteWell, if you deserve going to Hell just because someone committed sins, why don't you go to Hell because you father, your brother or close friend committed sins? If you are held responsible by your God for actions of those who you never seen and have no influence over their actions, this means that you should be held even more responsible for actions of your relatives, as you directly relate to them. Your God is fully justified in sending you to hell because you have sinned against Him and Him alone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #194 August 10, 2007 Quote Your God is fully justified in sending you to hell because you have sinned against Him and Him alone. No, I did not. According to your own words, we are going to hell because some creature the God created acted exactly like the God programmed him (and the God knew it even before).* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #195 August 10, 2007 QuoteAccording to the my Bible and not me, your my God created you as a moral agent capable of relationship. He created you with the ability to choose right from wrong. He imprinted on your heart what is right. Fixed it for you. Your beliefs are not my beliefs. Edit: You do realize that you haven't actually answered a single question that I have asked you."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #196 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuote Your God is fully justified in sending you to hell because you have sinned against Him and Him alone. No, I did not. Have you ever told a lie? QuoteAccording to your own words, we are going to hell because some creature the God created acted exactly like the God programmed him (and the God knew it even before). When did I ever say that you were programmed? Are you one of these people who simply refuse to take responsibility for your own actions and constantly blame what you do wrong on everybody else? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #197 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteAccording to the Bible and not me, your God created you as a moral agent capable of relationship. He created you with the ability to choose right from wrong. He imprinted on your heart what is right. Your beliefs are not my beliefs. While that may be true, what you believe is not as relevant as what is true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #198 August 10, 2007 QuoteWhile that may be true, what you believe is not as relevant as what is true. No judging going on there! Your words have less relevance to "what is true" than any other I've ever seen here (save Chuteless). . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #199 August 10, 2007 Quote According to you, your God created us unable to live without sinning and then holds us responsible for sinning. Nice God ... Well, no. And you keep saying God "programmed" us. Actually, God created us in his image. That means that we have free will and an intellect. As for the problem of sin, well, yes, in theory God could have made us so that we would never choose to sin. But he didn't. Because that would mean we would be a race of organic automatons. Organic automatons who might never actually do anything sinful, but would also be incapable of love (and without free will, we would not be made in the image of God at all) There is suffering in the world because of human beings choosing to sin. That's the price we (and God) pays for us having the capacity to choose at all. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #200 August 10, 2007 >what you believe is not as relevant as what is true. His beliefs are as relevant as yours in matters of faith. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
