Tancredo: Bomb Muslim holy sites first

[jenfly00 0]

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Bombing Muslim sites puts the war at the religious level, which is EXACTLY what AQ wants us to do.

How many attacks on us by those in the Muslim community haven't invoked the name of Allah in the process? You can't separate their reiligion and their politicss.

We've spanked other despots into submission using a heavy hand.

....ding ding ding ding...we have a winner.

As I said, the extremists have already made it about religion, regardless of how carefully we tread around the issue.

Do I want us to carry a religious banner as we fight in this campaign, no. Do I want us to exploit the tactic the other side is using to our advantage, yes. Is it easy and 100% effective, no.

Initial justification aside, on a nations scale, it's just fucking embarassing having the US flounder around day after day, racking up the death toll of US troops ...and accomplishing nothing.

If faced with the dicotomy between a few more decades of the fucknest we now have in Iraq, and all out, fuck the politics, war ...I would choose the latter.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[Royd 0]

"How many attacks on us by those in the Muslim community haven't invoked the name of Allah in the process?"

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I agree withyou Royd that Aq are clearly motivated by Islam. But whilst all AQ are Muslims not all Muslims are Aq.
The number of Muslims on this planet is just over 1 billion. The number of people that are members of terrorists groups like Aq are probably a few thousand. We dont want that ratio getting more balanced. Bombing Mecca or medina whilst maybe pschyologicaly satisying in the wake of an attack in the West would most likely rally the worlds Mulsim population to Aq's cause. Is that something we want?

I don't know if this analogy will actually work but here goes. We have laws concerning the truancy of children. They are required to go to school. Many of these children have parents who either have a negative or indifferent attitude about getting an education, and know that the children are skipping school.

Once the law gets involved and either threatens the parents with a fine or jail time, the problem seems to solve itself.

If, in deed, the radical bad boys are a minority, then threatening the majority with serious punishment, if they don't rein in the bad boys, should work, unless they are complicate.

[Frenchy68 0]

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Are you saying that AQ[common soldier] has two different compartments in his mind, separating religion from politics?

Not at all what I am saying.
I am saying that AQ IS all about Islam. And AQ WANTS this conflict to be Islam vs the rest of the world. However, a huge percentage of Muslims are NOT following in AQ's footstep.
If WE make it about Islam, we are not only doing exactly what AQ wants us to do, we are also forcing the silent Muslims to take a stand AGAINST US (based on bombing Holy Muslim Shrines, that is).
Clearer?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[SpeedRacer 1]

I agree with Frenchy.

Someone else said well, it is Al Quaeda that made this about religion, so we should just go along with it & therefore threaten Islamic holy places.

But if we have any balls, we should not let AQ set the standard. WE should be setting the standard.

As many people have pointed out, this is a war of ideology. Should we let the Islamic extremists win?

Fuck the extremists. (And by the way, there are plenty of Muslims fighting against the extremists, both in Iraq & elsewhere. AQ is killing Muslims by the thousands.)

(and I keep seeing Bush supporters who want to bomb Mecca, even though Bush himself has said that Islam is a religion of peace & the terrorists are just hijacking it. So is Bush a liar?)

Speed Racer
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[crwtom 0]

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counterproductive at the same time! That's quite a talent.

I think that one was a troll.

it appears a pretty successful one

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Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[Darius11 12]

(not diracted at you davedlg)

HAHAHA this thread is awesome. Now it makes a lot of sense how they elected a coc-head who barley had a 2.0 GPA as the leader of the free world.



In the words of Gorge Carlin when he speaks of the government.

“Garbage in garbage out”

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Andrewwhyte 1]

You see how stupid out British friends are? If they had just bombed all the Catholic churches and convents in Ulster back in the early seventies the troubles would be a distant memory.
Silly bulldog.

[Skyrad 0]

Tom Tancredo is a clear example of an American who is unable to grasp the fact that other cultures are different from his and that others see life through a different lens. His thinking goes something like well if they are religious then they will want to protect their 'churchs' and sites of pilgramage just like a good Christian would....Wrong.

If he had the faintest insight into the mind of Salafi and Wahibi 'theology/philiosophy' or had even bothered to pick up the Economist or even the mickey mouse tabloid Time magazine he would know that in Saudi Arabia they have bulldozed and continue to bulldoze every site that has anything to do with the Prophet Mohammed. Their thinking is that they want people to worship God and not Prophet Mohammed, so they destroy any place that has an association with him in a historical context so that it does not become a site of pilgramage. How far this policy will extend is anyones guess but bombing Muslim 'holy' site would not only be pointless it would play into the hands of the extremists and do nothing for the US's security.
In short Tom Tancredo is a fucking idiot.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Seems the reporter twisted his words a bit. He didn't say that bombing holy sites first would act as a deterrent, he said putting on the table the threat that this would be the retailiation would serve as the deterrent.

Still f'kin insane though. Mutually capable mass destruction as a deterrent ended up working ok for a while with the US/USSR because both central gov'ts were in reasonably full control of the means of destruction. That isn't what we have here. Maybe some on either fringe would like to trigger just that type of retailiation in order to further polarize and energize the mainstreams on both sides.

BINGO! We have a winner!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Isn't the argument that we should go after them where they are at? Obama wants to go into Pakistan.

If a group of people here in the States decided to form a terrorist organization, but proclaimed their santuary Holy Ground, do you think that would stop the govt. from destroying it, or would that decision depend on whether or not there were 3 million people waiting in the wings to join them?

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go into

o you really think that the US and UK special forces aren't there already?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Remember there's about a billion Muslims out there.

Stop helping the enemy's propaganda machine.

...and very few of them are stepping up against the extremists that are marring their faith. While we are trying to not make it about religion, the other side already has.

I disagree, its just that you don't hear about them often. What about the Red Mosque incident, Rambo the gate guard, and more events than I've got time to mention right now. The truth is no one wants to hear about Muslim good guys, they simply don't sell news (or the GWOT for that matter either)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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I think it's a good idea. We didn't start this war, they did. And it's already upon us.

For starters, Muslim is a gutter religion, opposed to all our values. Please don't tell me there are "moderate, peace loving" Muslims either. If there were, they would be ratting out their co-religionists who are supposedly giving their religion a bad name.

The tough thing about war is that it sucks. People get killed in the name of bigger stupider shit. The Muslims have already started it. So the deal is simple; either they can knock it the fuck off, or we can simply destroy their religion, period.

I have no moral qualms at all about nuking Mecca or any other of their stupid filthy religious sites. Kill them all, before they kill us. They started it, now they can knock it off or die.

Once again I thank you for your informed, balanced, reasoned argument.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[shropshire 0]

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SpeedRacer 1]

The thing is, which ever way we lean politically, we all understand that this is a war of ideology. People on all sides have said this.

Bush has talked about the importance of "winning hearts and minds" although some would wonder how well he has done in that department.

The bottom line is this: If we make America be the enemy of Islam, then we have utterly LOST the war.

Islam is not going away, and people had better get used to it.

Al Quaeda needs to continue to be cut off fromthe rest of the world. With their disregard for human life, including the lives of other Muslims, AQ has already done a pretty good job of isolating themselves. Let's not give their propaganda any help.

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[Thanatos340 1]

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we are not only doing exactly what AQ wants us to do, we are also forcing the silent Muslims to take a stand AGAINST US

When what we should be doing is forcing the "Good Muslims" to police themselves and eradicate the Bad Muslims. If they will not, then we will have a very hard time separating the "Good" ones from the "Bad" ones. Safest thing for us would be to just take them all out.

An alternative to that would be to destroy one major religious site every time there is a terrorist Action. Each time make sure that it is a Larger and Larger Destruction. Make the "Good" Muslims understand that we will not tolerate being attacked by their riffraff. They will soon understand that we all Suffer if the Radicals attack. Then maybe they will not be so Silent and they will do what they should have been doing all along and Standing up against the AQ and denouncing their tactics both publicly and privately.

People that believe they have Gods permission to kill you if you don’t share their faith must be eliminated no mater what they call their Religion and/or God.

[jakee 1,501]

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An alternative to that would be to destroy one major religious site every time there is a terrorist Action. Each time make sure that it is a Larger and Larger Destruction. Make the "Good" Muslims understand that we will not tolerate being attacked by their riffraff. They will soon understand that we all Suffer if the Radicals attack. Then maybe they will not be so Silent and they will do what they should have been doing all along and Standing up against the AQ and denouncing their tactics both publicly and privately.

Yes. And then all the little fauns and bunny rabbits will come out and frolic together and chocolate buttons will fall from the sky and everyone will be happy for ever and ever.

You are living in a fantasy world if you think any of the above is actually true.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SpeedRacer 1]

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An alternative to that would be to destroy one major religious site every time there is a terrorist Action. Each time make sure that it is a Larger and Larger Destruction. Make the "Good" Muslims understand that we will not tolerate being attacked by their riffraff. They will soon understand that we all Suffer if the Radicals attack. Then maybe they will not be so Silent and they will do what they should have been doing all along and Standing up against the AQ and denouncing their tactics both publicly and privately.

If you think about this for a few seconds, and imagine yourself a Muslim living in one of those countries, you will quickly realize that that approach would backfire 180 degrees.


It's this simple:

If America threatens Islam, then it is America that is threatening Islam.

That is how the Muslims would see it.

You cannot frighten Muslims into complying with a country that sets itself up as threatening Islam.

It simply WILL NOT work.

.

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[Thanatos340 1]

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You are living in a fantasy world if you think any of the above is actually true.

You are right, But then we could atleast say we tried before we did what was truly needed to bring peace to the middle east. (Imagine Camels trying to walk on a solid sheet of Glass.)

[Darius11 12]

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People that believe they have Gods permission to kill you if you don’t share their faith must be eliminated no mater what they call their Religion and/or God.

(not just diracted at you but all who have made blanket statments with zero research).


God things like this piss me off.

Where did you see that? Did you make it up?

Islam is the ONLY religion that accepts other religions.
Sorry I am getting so sick of people who have no fucking clue about Islam but they still are making statements, this is not just directed at you but every one who tells me what being a Muslim is about yet they have done ZERO research on the subject.


Here is a suggestion. Next time you want to express an opinion that is in support of many people dyeing. Do us all a favor and at least do as much research as you would when trying to save 50 bucks on a plane ticket. I know it’s only brown people but believe it or not they are humane and you should know what the fuck your talking about before making a blanket statement about a religion that you have no clue about.

This thread is making me puke I never knew we had so much ignorance in this community.


Here is a great idea for a policy. Get the fuck off their land and stop fucking the governments so you can keep your SUV on the goddamn road.

Next time you have to make a decision on ten thousand lives or making another billion for your rich friends pick humane life.

Do not support terrorism when it is convenient and have some sort of morals other then Money is god.

This would be a great start, and guess what you can be free as you fucking want no one gives a shit, just don’t try to force your way of life on others.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[shropshire 0]

<>

He's not really done this at home and certainly not in Europe so what chance does he have over there?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SpeedRacer 1]

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But then we could atleast say we tried

Hey here's an off-the-wall idea: While we're trying, why not try a strategy that would help OUR SIDE, rather than trying to help the terrorists' agenda??

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[NCclimber 0]

Nice rant Darius. You made some good points.

While I try not to buy into the negative stereotypes that get directed at Muslims and Islam, I have read a number of stories (mostly about the Middle East and northern Africa), claiming that non-Muslims are treated like secondclass citizens (or even like livestock) when it comes to rights and legal protections... that assaults on non-Muslims are not punishable offenses... that possession of holy books other than Koran is against the law.

Are these stories I read just cherry picked exceptions or are they the norm?

I recall reading about across-the-board intolerance in Saudi Arabia. Is that true? Do other countries practice the same?

[funkcanna 0]

Darius11, I couldnt have said it better myself.

I work in a company which is probably 95% muslim. I live in a muslim dominated country.
I KNOW muslims and a bit about their faith and for some ignorant wanker to pigeon hole them with EXTREMIST groups like AQ is sickening. Does every US teen shoot up schools?

What Darius says about Muslim's being the only people to openly accept other religions is exactly true.

To know requires proof
To believe requires evidence
To have faith requires neither.
If you stick with that, we'll never be confused again

[Thanatos340 1]

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Islam is the ONLY religion that accepts other religions.

Bullshit.
Tell you what, Try handing out a few Bibles in a Muslim Country and see how acceptant they are of other religions.

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I know it’s only brown people but believe it or not they are humane and you should know what the fuck your talking about before making a blanket statement about a religion that you have no clue about.

This has nothing to do with color. It has to do with Idiots strapping Bombs to themselves and trying to take as many innocents with them as possible and them being convinced that God will reward them for doing this by giving them Virgins in heaven.

Where are the Muslim Leaders that should come out and say.. "Dont do that"??

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This thread is making me puke I never knew we had so much ignorance in this community.

Kind of like it makes me sick to see the News like today where another NUTJOB set off his truck Bomb in Tel Afar killing mostly children.
Kind of like it makes me sick that AQ is taking hostages and killing them (Yea, They are Yellow People so it really shouldn’t matter but it does to me)


I know there are Good Muslims. But Why are they not standing up to speak out against what is being done by the Nutjobs in the name of their religion??

Someone prints a Cartoon and there are Riots in the streets because someone criticized Islam.. Why aren’t there Riots in the Street protesting the VIOLENCE being done in the name of Islam?? Cant you see there is something wrong here?

[billvon 3,009]

>I know there are Good Muslims. But Why are they not standing up
> to speak out against what is being done by the Nutjobs in the name of
>their religion??

They are, but many people do not want to hear it, preferring to have a easily-defined enemy to hate.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/yab01.htm
http://www.islamfortoday.com/murad04.htm
http://www.freemuslims.org/issues/terrorism.php
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/selective_hearing_of_muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism/0012212
http://ezinearticles.com/?UK-Muslims-Join-Backlash-Against-Extremism&id=632700

"After pointing to a few recent articles under the heading of MAE (Muslims Against Extremism) he [Jim Ragano] comes to the conclusion that 'As far as the American Muslim population generally is concerned, I continue to find little but silence.'

It is interesting that in his research of The American Muslim site he entirely missed all of the fatwas and statements by organizations and individuals in the 466 items that come up in a search of MAE on the site.

A few months ago, Thomas Friedman made the same error in an article If It’s A Muslim Problem It Needs a Muslim Solution in which he said “To this day - to this day - no major Muslim cleric or religious body has ever issued a fatwa condemning Osama bin Laden.”

I suppose it all depends on how you define “cleric”, or “fatwa”, or define who is a “major” or significant cleric or religious body, but I certainly cannot agree that Muslims - ordinary Muslims, clerics, scholars, religious bodies, political leaders (Sunni and Shiah) have not spoken up.

We have collected 105 fatwas from Islamic scholars, 75 statements by Islamic Organizations (many of these signed by anywhere from 50 to 500 scholars from around the world), and 142 statements by individual Muslims. These are from 30 countries including: Afghanistan, Australia, Bangladesh, Belgium, Britain, Chechnya, Egypt, France, India, Indonesia, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Malaysia, Mauritania, Morocco, New Zealand, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, Syria, Tunisia, Turkey, UAE, U.S. and Yemen.

They speak clearly against terrorism, suicide bombing, kidnapping, harming civilians, harming places of worship, and weapons of mass destruction. They clarify the Islamic position on minority rights and apostasy. Some directly condemn al-Qaeda and bin Laden, and specific acts like 9/11 or the Madrid bombing."