I would like to tell you a bit more about God

[br0k3n 0]

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You know damn well what I'm talking about so stop dodging the question.

Why is it OK to you that the Catholic Church lies about the effectiveness of potentially life saving devices? After all, they're breaking one of their very own commandments!

Why are you condoning lying?

I don't condone lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, or sexual seduction or coercion by the clergy.

Based on the fact that you do not believe that man has the ability to forego sexual promiscuity, and that they only have the ability to obey those edicts that are easy or convienient, what makes you think that, if the Pope proclaimed today that all Catholics would have to wear condoms unless they were intentionally trying to conceive, all men would immediately obey? After all, isn't it human nature to disobey rules? Especially if they cause inconvenience or result in less sexual pleasure.

Royd, is this really that hard for you to grasp... or are you dodging the subject because you know that you are fighting a losing battle...

The issues here has nothing to do sexual promiscuity, or sexual pleasure, its to do with the FACT that the Catholic church is openly and knowingly LYING about the effectiveness of condoms.. DO.......YOU......UNDER..STAND???????

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[maadmax 0]

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Here I come to learn a little bit more about God (as the thread title implies), and all I get is more and more confused. Makes me think it's kinda up in the air. I've gained little clarity today where this topic is concerned. :(

linz

_____________________________________
God loves us and wants to have a personal relationship with us.
Through our own free will we have created a barrier between us and God.
Jesus came to remove that barrier. All that believe in Him shall have eternal life. " God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so who ever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

[NCclimber 0]

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You know damn well what I'm talking about so stop dodging the question.

Why is it OK to you that the Catholic Church lies about the effectiveness of potentially life saving devices? After all, they're breaking one of their very own commandments!

Why are you condoning lying?

I don't condone lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, or sexual seduction or coercion by the clergy.

Based on the fact that you do not believe that man has the ability to forego sexual promiscuity, and that they only have the ability to obey those edicts that are easy or convienient, what makes you think that, if the Pope proclaimed today that all Catholics would have to wear condoms unless they were intentionally trying to conceive, all men would immediately obey? After all, isn't it human nature to disobey rules? Especially if they cause inconvenience or result in less sexual pleasure.

Royd, is this really that hard for you to grasp... or are you dodging the subject because you know that you are fighting a losing battle...

The issues here has nothing to do sexual promiscuity, or sexual pleasure, its to do with the FACT that the Catholic church is openly and knowingly LYING about the effectiveness of condoms.. DO.......YOU......UNDER..STAND???????

I'm guessing he's just toying with Jakee, who seems to consistently display a lot of hostility when Christian topics are being discussed.

[steveorino 7]

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DO.......YOU......UNDER..STAND???????

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I'm guessing he's just toying with Jakee, who seems to consistently display a lot of hostility when Christian topics are being discussed.

Come on Christians, how are we to present our "good news"? With gentleness & respect. I understand there are times people are baited to respond less graciously, but if Christians are to take JC's teachings seriously we will try to rise above that.

Perhaps it is my training as therapist, but the attitude people display in their posts are more telling than their words. That is true for both sides of the debate. JMHO

steveOrino

[NCclimber 0]

Thanks Steve.

You consistently set a good example.

[jakee 1,489]

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I'm guessing he's just toying with Jakee, who seems to consistently display a lot of hostility when Christian topics are being discussed.

I display hostility to bloody stupid arguments. It's not my fault that bloody stupid arguments tend to congregate around particular subjects (and posters).

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[br0k3n 0]

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Thanks Steve.

You consistently set a good example.

ok, good example set.. now lets get back to the question... why is the catholic church lying??? isnt that contracdictory to the "commandments" ??

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[NCclimber 0]

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I'm guessing he's just toying with Jakee, who seems to consistently display a lot of hostility when Christian topics are being discussed.

I display hostility to bloody stupid arguments. It's not my fault that bloody stupid arguments tend to congregate around particular subjects (and posters).

LOL

Ironic, indeed.

[jakee 1,489]

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I'm guessing he's just toying with Jakee, who seems to consistently display a lot of hostility when Christian topics are being discussed.

I display hostility to bloody stupid arguments. It's not my fault that bloody stupid arguments tend to congregate around particular subjects (and posters).

LOL

Ironic, indeed.

Hmm, what a well argued response. Yeah.

I'll ask you again (I have to do a lot of that don't I?) Is there any particular reason for your continued participation in this thread except to flirt with me?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[NCclimber 0]

Yes.

[jakee 1,489]

Care to let on what it is? Maybe state your opinion on an issue, possibly argue a position, defend a stance, respond to questions - y'know, generally participate in those things recognised to be a part of active debate. 'Cus as far as I can tell, for the last 5 pages or so you've been all about me baby. Don't get me wrong, it's flattering, but it gets old.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[NCclimber 0]

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'Cus as far as I can tell, for the last 5 pages or so you've been all about me baby.

Do you know the meaning of myopia?

[Royd 0]

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Royd, is this really that hard for you to grasp... or are you dodging the subject because you know that you are fighting a losing battle...

The issues here has nothing to do sexual promiscuity, or sexual pleasure, its to do with the FACT that the Catholic church is openly and knowingly LYING about the effectiveness of condoms.. DO.......YOU......UNDER..STAND???????

The Catholic Church could pass out condoms with communion with pictures on how to use, and it wouldn't make a lick of difference because all sexual disease is caused by people doing as they damned well please, regardless of religious, scientific or medical intervention. Do you understand?

You could use this same stupid argument about alcoholism. Why didn't the Church warn the people that having wine during communion could turn them into drunks? What about all of the people who aren't Catholics. They were warned by the scientific and medical community. Did they take the warning seriously, or was it blown off with a 'Never happen to me' attitude?

[steveorino 7]

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ok, good example set.. now lets get back to the question... why is the catholic church lying??? isnt that contracdictory to the "commandments" ??

yes, it is. I'm not a catholic so therefore I'm unaware of their proclamation. However, if they did lie about the effectiveness of condoms, it was to promote their dogma. Is that wrong? You bet.

steveOrino

[billvon 2,991]

>The Catholic Church could pass out condoms with communion with pictures
>on how to use, and it wouldn't make a lick of difference because all sexual
>disease is caused by people doing as they damned well please, regardless
>of religious, scientific or medical intervention. Do you understand?

Not true, as has been proven many, many, many, many times. Here's one such bit of proof:

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The role of enhanced condom availability in HIV prevention programs.

Farley TA, Cohen DA.
Abstr Search Tools 1999 Natl HIV Prev Conf Natl HIV Prev Conf 1999 Atlanta Ga. 1999 Aug 29-Sep 1; (abstract no. 337).

Louisiana Office of Public Health, New Orleans. Fax: (504) 568-5006. E-mail: Tfarley@dhhmail.dhh.state.la.us.

CONCLUSION: Enhanced condom availability appears to improve condom use even when not combined with counseling or other forms of communication promoting condom use. This intervention may be a crucial but overlooked component of other successful interventions as well. Enhanced condom availability should be emphasized more in HIV prevention programs.
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But none of that really matters, since no one is suggesting anyone pass out condoms at communion. Telling people condoms prevent HIV transmission, though, also helps reduce the spread of AIDS - and doesn't get people to 'have more sex' or otherwise do bad things.

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* In a recent study of youth in Los Angeles, an HIV prevention program focusing on condom use did not increase sexual activity or the number of sex partners. But condom use did increase among those who were already sexually active.

The data is clear and plentiful. Condom education is effective in decreasing STDs and HIV and did not give teens "a license to have sex" as opponents claim.
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>Why didn't the Church warn the people that having wine during
>communion could turn them into drunks?

Uh, been to many masses? I can recall three or four sermons at our local church about alcohol/drug abuse.

>What about all of the people who aren't Catholics. They were warned by
> the scientific and medical community.

So you can be catholic, or you can pay attention to the scientific and medical community? That explains some of the posts here . . .

[Muenkel 0]

I find it interesting that there have been so many claims here of the Catholic Church lying about condom effectiveness in preventing AIDS, but there has been no link to such evidence. If anyone has it, I'd be glad to read it. Just make sure it is coming from a person of authority in the Catholic Church.

With all that said, the truth is; the Catholic Church will never condone any form of artificial birth control. Even though condoms are effective in reducing the spread of AIDS, it is still a form of artificial birth control; therefore it can never be condoned. I truly understand the logic many of you have on this issue, but let's be honest: you're not practising Catholics and have not invested your time in learning and understanding Her teachings.

I speak as a Catholic because that is who I am. I do not speak for any other religion.

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Chris

[funkcanna 0]

http://www.hli.org/condom_expose_family_values_vs_safe_sex.html#SECT2

To know requires proof
To believe requires evidence
To have faith requires neither.
If you stick with that, we'll never be confused again

[JackC 0]

Muenkel, I'm suprised you don't know about the Vatican's claims about the effectiveness of condoms.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html

But in all fairness, Pope Benedict XVI has gone against against decades of opposition and asked the Pontifical Council for Health Care Ministry to look into the effectiveness of condoms against HIV. They have said "they could envision situations in which condom use to prevent AIDS would be the "lesser evil" that can be tolerated". It's a shame they only go far enough to say "in certain circumstances" but I'm glad they have atleast made an attempt to get into the 21st century. It's about bloody time.

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=19560

[Muenkel 0]

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2. The Catholic Church has repeatedly criticized programs promoting condoms as a totally effective and sufficient means of AIDS prevention. The different Bishops' Conferences all over the world have expressed their concern regarding this problem. The Catholic Bishops of South Africa, Botswana and Swaziland categorically "regard the widespread and indiscriminate promotion of condoms as an immoral and misguided weapon in our battle against HIV/AIDS for the following reasons. * The use of condoms goes against human dignity. * Condoms change the beautiful act of love into a selfish search for pleasure -- while rejecting responsibility. * Condoms do not guarantee protection against HIV/AIDS. * Condoms may even be one of the main reasons for the spread of HIV/AIDS. Apart from the possibility of condoms being faulty or wrongly used they contribute to the breaking down of self-control and mutual respect."[6]

Right here, you've made my point. Those reasons are the reasons the Catholic Church condemn condom use. I do not see any lie. Putting aside the moral objections, it is a fact that condoms are not 100% effective in preventing HIV/AIDS.

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Chris

[JackC 0]

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2. The Catholic Church has repeatedly criticized programs promoting condoms as a totally effective and sufficient means of AIDS prevention. The different Bishops' Conferences all over the world have expressed their concern regarding this problem. The Catholic Bishops of South Africa, Botswana and Swaziland categorically "regard the widespread and indiscriminate promotion of condoms as an immoral and misguided weapon in our battle against HIV/AIDS for the following reasons. * The use of condoms goes against human dignity. * Condoms change the beautiful act of love into a selfish search for pleasure -- while rejecting responsibility. * Condoms do not guarantee protection against HIV/AIDS. * Condoms may even be one of the main reasons for the spread of HIV/AIDS. Apart from the possibility of condoms being faulty or wrongly used they contribute to the breaking down of self-control and mutual respect."[6]

Right here, you've made my point. Those reasons are the reasons the Catholic Church condemn condom use. I do not see any lie. Putting aside the moral objections, it is a fact that condoms are not 100% effective in preventing HIV/AIDS.

"The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom." ~ Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo

*That* is the lie. They have been repetedly called on it and it's taken decades for them to even think about reexamining their position.


Here's what the World Health Organisation said about it:

"These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

"intact condoms... are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus... condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses""

[Muenkel 0]

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The organisation (WHO) says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass .

Scientific research by a group including the US National Institutes of Health and the WHO found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus... condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses".

I don't know the author of this article, nor his credentials to speak for the Catholic Church. The 2 paragraphs above clearly mention that the WHO has claimed that condoms are only 90% effective.

Notice in the 2nd paragraph it mentions "intact" condoms, once again proving they are not 100% effective.

I will now go read your 2nd link.

_________________________________________
Chris

[Muenkel 0]

OK, I read the link from Catholic.org. Thank you for using a credible reference.

Don't jump to the conclusion that what Cardinal Martini is saying is going to come to fruition. He has a boss and that is the pope. The pope would look at all data regarding this issue before he would make a 'ruling' so to speak. My bet is: and you can quote me on this when the pope puts out his message: is that the use of condoms in the cases mentioned will still be condemned. Same with the abortion issues and when life begins. There will be no change in the teachings.

There are many innocent victims of AIDS/HIV, but make no mistake about it; the pandemic is the cause of individuals actions. The culpability of these individuals is between them and God only. Not being permitted to use condoms has not caused the spread of AIDS. The action of individuals has caused it. According to the Catholic teaching, you cannot perform an evil act in order to have a good result.

Once again, I am speaking as a practising Catholic. I am in no way telling anyone how to live their lives. I've only stepped in to correct statements that were made that were erroneous.

Now, I'm heading out.

Have a great day.

_________________________________________
Chris

[JackC 0]

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I don't know the author of this article, nor his credentials to speak for the Catholic Church. The 2 paragraphs above clearly mention that the WHO has claimed that condoms are only 90% effective.

Notice in the 2nd paragraph it mentions "intact" condoms, once again proving they are not 100% effective.

So what? Parachutes are not 100% effective. Just because something is not 100% money back guaranteed effective doens't mean it's not a good idea to use it.

If you dont like the Guardian's quote, perhaps you would prefer the Vatican:
"On an average, it is said that there is a 10-15% inefficacy, since the AIDS viruses are much more filtrating [able to pass through] than the sperm." ~ http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_20031201_family-values-safe-sex-trujillo_en.html#ConcernMoralists

The WHO say that is not true.

[JackC 0]

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My bet is: and you can quote me on this when the pope puts out his message: is that the use of condoms in the cases mentioned will still be condemned. Same with the abortion issues and when life begins. There will be no change in the teachings.

I'll bet your right but I still think it's a spectacularly dumb idea to condemn the use of something that could save a persons life. I find the very idea that people would defend this position to be quite repugnant.

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Not being permitted to use condoms has not caused the spread of AIDS.

It's not bloody helped much though has it? I'm amazed that ordinarily compassionate people can be so callous.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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My bet is: and you can quote me on this when the pope puts out his message: is that the use of condoms in the cases mentioned will still be condemned. Same with the abortion issues and when life begins. There will be no change in the teachings.

I'll bet your right but I still think it's a spectacularly dumb idea to condemn the use of something that could save a persons life. I find the very idea that people would defend this position to be quite repugnant.

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Not being permitted to use condoms has not caused the spread of AIDS.

It's not bloody helped much though has it? I'm amazed that ordinarily compassionate people can be so callous.

I don't think it's an issue. If you're going to follow all the rules, you wouldn't be having extra/pre-marital sex anyway.

If you are NOT following the rules (ie, you're having pre-marital sex) then by definition you're not going to follow the rules about the condoms either.

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