I would like to tell you a bit more about God

[steveorino 7]

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The biggest problem with religion/Belief in God is that it starts with a conclusion and then fits every thing to it. You will never be open to any other possibility. I am certainly open to the possibility of the existence of a god, but to date there has been no evidence to support it. You on the other hand are not open to the possibility that there is no god. You already have your conclusion.

You are right. I do have a core belief there is a God. It permeates my thinking. Should I apologize for my convictions and beliefs as they apply to me and my family?

Apologize? I don't understand your reply. What I was trying to point out is that you think we should be open to the possibility of god, yet you are not open to the possibility that god does not exist.

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Actually, I didn't say you had to believe in God to see Him, I said you must be open to the possibility of his existence or you will dismiss any evidence he gives of his existence.

I submit that that makes you the close minded one in this discussion. It is apparent that religion is an emotional conclusion and not a logical conclusion. Yet you try to endow it with a certain amount of logic. You don't seem to be able to see the failure in your logic. You might consider taking a critical thinking class.

Thanks for the advice. My point still stands. Everyone has core beliefs. Mine is there is a God, yours is there is not. It is hard to move anyone of us from those core beliefs. We're all "betting" on something. I'm betting JC is who he says he is. You are betting he isn't.

Exactly what evidence should I expect that would change my beliefs? I'm not a fundamentalist. I'm not a creationist. I don't think the Bible was dictated word for word, I DON'T think the intent of the Bible is to either be a history book or a science book. It points us to JC.

steveOrino

[beowulf 1]

I don't know that I would have a "core belief" that god doesn't exist. I just can't believe in something that doesn't make sense. The Bible doesn't make sense to me. I have never read the Koran so I can't say anything about that, but the idea of an invisible god or gods really does not make any sense at all. I perfectly willing to hear out anyones argument for god or gods.

My real point in all of this is to maybe get you to think a little out of the box you seem to have yourself in. I don't expect you to change your beliefs.

I also don't understand why you don't see the logical error in starting with a conclusion and find evidence to fit it.

[beowulf 1]

btw I am not betting on anything. To me death is a game over. As far as I know there is nothing after death. I am just trying to make the best of what life I have left. I don't need promises of an after life.

[steveorino 7]

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btw I am not betting on anything. To me death is a game over. As far as I know there is nothing after death..

And THAT is what you are "betting" on. I have no problems with that.

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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I don't know that I would have a "core belief" that god doesn't exist. I just can't believe in something that doesn't make sense. The Bible doesn't make sense to me.

We all have core beliefs ... you either believe there is a possibility of a God (then you are a theists or an agnostic) or you believe there is not a possibility of God's existence (then you'd be an atheist) Either way you have your core beliefs. Try a psych class. You can take it when I take the logic class.

BTW, quantum physics (or for that matter most any science) doesn't make sense to me, but I don't blow it off because I don't get it.

steveOrino

[beowulf 1]

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BTW, quantum physics (or for that matter most any science) doesn't make sense to me, but I don't blow it off because I don't get it.

Not a very good comparison. Since the results are easily seen. Not so with god.

[steveorino 7]

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BTW, quantum physics (or for that matter most any science) doesn't make sense to me, but I don't blow it off because I don't get it.

Not a very good comparison. Since the results are easily seen. Not so with god.

I walk outside and I see the beauty of God. I look at my eyes in the mirror and I see the beauty of God, I listen to a kid laugh, and I see the beauty of God. Maybe you don't know what youa re looking for?

If you seek God, I believe you will find Him. If you blow off his mere existence, then don't be surprised that you don't see him.

BTW, back to my point that you quoted. I wouldn't know a quantum physic if it bit me on the nose, But I'm open to it.

steveOrino

[jakee 1,563]

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I walk outside and I see the beauty of God. I look at my eyes in the mirror and I see the beauty of God, I listen to a kid laugh, and I see the beauty of God.

What do you think when you see a Tsetse fly?

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If you seek God, I believe you will find Him.

When you go hunting for your conclusion you can find a whole lot of things.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[philh 0]

"There is a world of difference between God's admonishment to the King Cyrus that He (God) can either bless the king or curse him, and God claiming that he (God) is responsible for all calamities. "

Just becuase you say so, doesnt make it so. Why is there a difference? God was describing himself to Cyrus , hes talking about his own qualities not just how they apply to Cyrus. Are you seriously implying that god created light and darkness only for Cyrus? now that would be laughable. Of course when god says to Cyrus I create the light and i create the darkness hes telling Cyrus that he is the creator of all things. I'll guess you dont feel uncomfortable with god being the creator of light and darkness. So why is the meaning suddenly changed when he says I create evil/calamity ?

So Im afriad the verse is not out of context. Its the convenient get out clause for all biblical passages you dont like isnt it? Or do you prefer to just arrogantly assume only you know the true meaning of the bible? If only we all had your amazing undersanding of the bible. But you fail to get it, other people have studied the bible (myself included) and they dont all get the same conclusion. Perhpas thats why there are thousands of different denominations of Christian, perhaps that why Christians have fought Jews, Protestants have fought Chrstians;they are all using the bible . And of coure there are many biblical scholars who are atheists. But of course the problem must be with them , you fail to conider the possibility that perhaps the problem is with the text itself.

[beowulf 1]

When you start with a conclusion you can find all kinds of "evidence" to fit it.

"If the only tool you own is a hammer, then everything starts to look like a nail."

[steveorino 7]

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"There is a world of difference between God's admonishment to the King Cyrus that He (God) can either bless the king or curse him, and God claiming that he (God) is responsible for all calamities. "

Just becuase you say so, doesnt make it so. Why is there a difference? God was describing himself to Cyrus , hes talking about his own qualities not just how they apply to Cyrus. Are you seriously implying that god created light and darkness only for Cyrus? now that would be laughable. Of course when god says to Cyrus I create the light and i create the darkness hes telling Cyrus that he is the creator of all things. I'll guess you dont feel uncomfortable with god being the creator of light and darkness. So why is the meaning suddenly changed when he says I create evil/calamity ?

So Im afriad the verse is not out of context. Its the convenient get out clause for all biblical passages you dont like isnt it? Or do you prefer to just arrogantly assume only you know the true meaning of the bible? If only we all had your amazing undersanding of the bible. But you fail to get it, other people have studied the bible (myself included) and they dont all get the same conclusion. Perhpas thats why there are thousands of different denominations of Christian, perhaps that why Christians have fought Jews, Protestants have fought Chrstians;they are all using the bible . And of coure there are many biblical scholars who are atheists. But of course the problem must be with them , you fail to conider the possibility that perhaps the problem is with the text itself.

I suppose anyone can make anything they want out of a verse. You proved just that.

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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When you start with a conclusion you can find all kinds of "evidence" to fit it.

"If the only tool you own is a hammer, then everything starts to look like a nail."

reminds me of the time back during my impoverished military days when I exchanged a sink with a hammer and hacksaw blade.

steveOrino

[beowulf 1]

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I suppose anyone can make anything they want out of a verse. You proved just that.

Then how do you know what the correct interpretation is?

[steveorino 7]

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I suppose anyone can make anything they want out of a verse. You proved just that.

Then how do you know what the correct interpretation is?

How does a therapist know which way to treat his client?

Some use folk theology (pop psychology), others use experience coupled with advanced learning to make the best "judgment" I prefer the latter. Same with good biblical exegesis

steveOrino

[pirana 0]

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Everyone has core beliefs. Mine is there is a God, yours is there is not. It is hard to move anyone of us from those core beliefs. We're all "betting" on something. I'm betting JC is who he says he is. You are betting he isn't.

Exactly what evidence should I expect that would change my beliefs? I'm not a fundamentalist. I'm not a creationist. I don't think the Bible was dictated word for word, I DON'T think the intent of the Bible is to either be a history book or a science book. It points us to JC.

I think that a distinction here is between core values and core beliefs. Core beliefs tend to be dogmatic and immune to new information. Core values reflect more of a characxter trait than a specific belief. Core beliefs are a setup for contradiction and will often expose unhealthy values.

I do not have a core belief that there is no God. I have a core value of honoring the evidence, even if it means changing beliefs.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[beowulf 1]

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I suppose anyone can make anything they want out of a verse. You proved just that.

Then how do you know what the correct interpretation is?

How does a therapist know which way to treat his client?

Some use folk theology, others use experience coupled with advanced learning to make the best "judgment" I prefer the latter. Same with good biblical exegesis

Now that really does not compare at all. Therapists have the benefit in trial and error. Theology does not.

[steveorino 7]

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I suppose anyone can make anything they want out of a verse. You proved just that.

Then how do you know what the correct interpretation is?

How does a therapist know which way to treat his client?

Some use folk theology, others use experience coupled with advanced learning to make the best "judgment" I prefer the latter. Same with good biblical exegesis

Now that really does not compare at all. Therapists have the benefit in trial and error. Theology does not.

BS! My interpretations of scripture has certainly changed over the years through the advantage of experience, additional schooling, and gained insight.

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

Any theologian who has stopped learning is not a truth seeker. they are afraid of discovering they may have been wrong about a given subject. Be vary ware of anyone who states they have all the answers, and are infallable. I have never claimed that.

If when I point out some basic errors in exegesis that it comes across as I alone have the answers, that was not my intent.

steveOrino

[JackC 0]

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Any theologian who has stopped learning is not a truth seeker. they are afraid of discovering they may have been wrong about a given subject.

Does that go for the existence of god too?

I do have a core belief that I am wonderfully made by a creator that loves me. Dang if everything I see in this world isn't through that lens. ~ Steveorino

As a true seeker, surely you can't be afraid of discovering that you might actually be wrong?

[philh 0]

"I suppose anyone can make anything they want out of a verse. You proved just that. "

Thats your answer? Thats your amazing level of scholarship blowing my arguments out of the water? I think youll have to do better than that.
if you follow the logic of what you are saying it really points to the bible being not such a special book after all. If we all get a different meaning out of it , whats the point of it? if god was trying to communicate to man he did a pretty awful job of it.

"How does a therapist know which way to treat his client?

Some use folk theology, others use experience coupled with advanced learning to make the best "judgment" I prefer the latter. Same with good biblical exegesis "

No, this is how a quack knows how to treat a client. Serious medical practitioner should not be using "folk theology". Instead serious medical pratitioners use evidence. Large Randomised doulbe blind trials are the benchmark for deciding which treatments work and which dont. I find it telling that you dont even have that on your list. The concept of objective evidence seems to fully escape all of your arguments. Perhaps that is why religion seems so attractive?

[steveorino 7]

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Any theologian who has stopped learning is not a truth seeker. they are afraid of discovering they may have been wrong about a given subject.

Does that go for the existence of god too?

I do have a core belief that I am wonderfully made by a creator that loves me. Dang if everything I see in this world isn't through that lens. ~ Steveorino

As a true seeker, surely you can't be afraid of discovering that you might actually be wrong?

Sure, I could be wrong, but what evidence will you present to make me change my mind?

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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"I suppose anyone can make anything they want out of a verse. You proved just that. "

Thats your answer? Thats your amazing level of scholarship blowing my arguments out of the water? I think youll have to do better than that.

I threw you a slow easy pitch. Why should I invest so much time into answering you? You've already indicated you don't respect my education and knowledge.

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"How does a therapist know which way to treat his client?

Some use folk theology, others use experience coupled with advanced learning to make the best "judgment" I prefer the latter. Same with good biblical exegesis "

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No, this is how a quack knows how to treat a client. Serious medical practitioner should not be using "folk theology". Instead serious medical pratitioners use evidence. Large Randomised doulbe blind trials are the benchmark for deciding which treatments work and which dont. I find it telling that you dont even have that on your list. The concept of objective evidence seems to fully escape all of your arguments. Perhaps that is why religion seems so attractive?

You missed the point I was trying to make. Some people's biblical interpretation comes from "folk theology" Either it is what they heard as a child in Sunday School, or from a preacher on TV, from an atheist internet website that gives you "key verses to argue against Christians" or they developed it along the way. The one's i personally respect are thge ones that went to colleges & unviversities to gather greater insight.

In therapy. some do use folk theology or better described as "pop psychology" I didn't say it was "the" list nor did I say it was an all inclusive list. Personally I tend to use CBT, but I'm also influenced by Milanic Family Therapy and even some analytic therapies such as Carl Jung's.

Would my point been any better if I said some use folk theology (pop psychology), psychoanalysis, alderian therapy, existential therapy, person-centered therapy, gestalt therapy, behavior therapy, rational emotive behavior therapy, cognitive therapy, reality therapy, feminist therapy, family therapy, constructivists and intergrative therapy, along with the many sub categories of said theories, and others I may have forgotten?

steveOrino

[beowulf 1]

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I suppose anyone can make anything they want out of a verse. You proved just that.

Then how do you know what the correct interpretation is?

How does a therapist know which way to treat his client?

Some use folk theology, others use experience coupled with advanced learning to make the best "judgment" I prefer the latter. Same with good biblical exegesis

Now that really does not compare at all. Therapists have the benefit in trial and error. Theology does not.

BS! My interpretations of scripture has certainly changed over the years through the advantage of experience, additional schooling, and gained insight.

No you keep reading the same book over and over again. That is not trial and error. There is no way to know if your interpretation of the Bible is correct or not.

[steveorino 7]

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No you keep reading the same book over and over again. That is not trial and error. There is no way to know if your interpretation of the Bible is correct or not.

A good biblical student will always read his bible with a different light through the years. Sometimes that light comes from experience, education, teachers/pastors, friends or circumstances.

steveOrino

[beowulf 1]

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No you keep reading the same book over and over again. That is not trial and error. There is no way to know if your interpretation of the Bible is correct or not.

A good biblical student will always read his bible with a different light through the years. Sometimes that light comes from experience, education, teachers/pastors, friends or circumstances.

But there is still no way to know if it is correct interpretation or not. There are so many different views on the Bible.
Each person has their own unique view and each thinks theirs is correct. How can you call it trial and error if you never know if you are in error?