How to control healthcare costs in the United States

[sv3n 0]

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As far as the higher insurance rate and doctor salaries...........I haven't ignored them. Insurance wouldn't be an issue. If you have a government run healthcare there wouldn't be insurance....

Whaddaya mean there will be no insurance? Someone has to dole out and manage the money. It may be the government, but it still needs to be paid for.



Even after that there will be insurance. What % of french citizens do you think go out and buy their own supplemental insurance because THE WORLD'S BEST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM doesn't pay enough to cover the bills? Done guessing? It's about 85%. They buy it with $ out of their own pockets. Want that to be "free" too, well then tax their ass even more than you already do. You really need to do a little research on this crap. Seeing the #1 ranking without doing any further research won't cut it. If you really want the truth you need to talk to some people in France.


http://www.civitas.org.uk/pubs/bb2France.php

I think it's fair to say that it all depends on how you run things...as I've said, over and over again, you start with your base model and go from there. No system out there is perfect, but since we're one of the richest countries out there I think we definitely have a great shot at making it happen. As for trusting the current administration or the leaders in charge to make it happen the right way...........if they're not doing their job then we need to find someone that will.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[1969912 0]

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Again, I agree. My only point was I wish in the WHO ranking the US was 100 or lower

Why? Would that make then stay away?


Really. though, please explain.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[sv3n 0]

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When you start a world health organization to monitor and rank healthcare around the world, then I'll take what you have to say on the subject seriously.

If there might be the worst reason to create the world health organization, this must be the one you just mentioned :D

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According to research done by the World Health Organization France was ranked number 1........if you choose to ignore it that's your problem.

Well, if you decide to ignore everything said about it, and prefer just to repeat the same meaningless quote again ang again - it's up to you.

There would be nice to have an ignore list.

A World Health Organization looking at the healthcare that people get around the world.....that's preposterous.

As 1969912 said "Removing that "fairness" test moves Fr to 6th and US to 15th or so".........so it all depends on how much you value "fairness".

Yes, it would be nice to have an ignore list.......ignorance is bliss.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[sv3n 0]

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No one should be denied medical care or receive sub-standard care. I don't have the answer, but there needs to be some way that the working poor, that are making barely enough to pay childcare and housing costs, can have decent medical care.

Are people denied care? Go to your local emergency room and you'll get your answer. People using the ER for non-emergent care and not paying (which the hospital then passes on to everyone else) is a large part of the problem, IMO.

Does healthcare need some sort of overhaul? Yes, in my opinion. Refusing to treat non-emergent people and sending them to a local doctor or clinic would go a long way towards reducing overall costs and easing the burden on the healthcare system.

I believe he's referring to the fact that people with serious illnesses get turned away for not having insurance.....like cancer and such.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[sv3n 0]

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I just learned more about the "standards" used by the WHO to find the rankings. And as Glen Beck said. I have only one problem with the US rating. It is too damed high. It really should be closer to 100. Then I feel we would be on a better track

Me and sv3n went over all that stuff last week didn't we? Maybe you didn't see the posts. I guess it doesn't really matter. I don't give a shit how they ranked us anyway, they're commies, most of us are not. one thing's for sure though, anyone who wants SHC in their country will not like the way you or I or Glenn Beck think about what is important.

I have been bouncing in and out of this thread and yes, I did see your evaluation of how the ratings were done. (Nicely done by the way) It was just interesting to here it come from someplace else. You are also right about, the the UN or the WHO likes it, I want nothing to do with it

So, I thought I'd give you an experience in socialized medicine................so before you say "it's the devil", you'd get an idea of what we're talking about. Here's a story from Japan that I found from a woman there on a student visa.


From Japan:
In honor of the movie that’s getting tremendous attention everywhere, I thought I’d share a personal experience of my own. I just got home from the most amazing experience, it’s called….. (drumroll)… SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!!! It was so exciting.

About 2 weeks ago I slammed my knee running for the train (late as usual). The concrete step crashed into the middle of my kneecap, and I could barely bend it for 2 days. Although it improved, I was worried cuz it was still hurting sometimes. I didn’t want it to heal weird, and start throbbing every time there was a rainstorm, or something like that. So I asked the lady at my foreign-students dormitory where I could get it checked out. She gave me a list of doctors in our neighborhood (about 15, all covering different specialties). We agreed I should go to the orthopedic surgeon; “no appointment is necessary, just show up” she said. I went at about 5 p.m. today on my bike.

Oh my goodness!!!!!! It was about the most divine customer-service experience of my LIFE! Dr. Maeda’s office was a little drab, but functional and clean. Not luxurious-looking like hospitals in the U.S., with lots of fake plants and plaques with donors names. Just wood-panel walls and old magazines. I gave a written description of my problem to ease the language barrier, and after filling out one short form (basically contact info only) and handing over my government health insurance card, I took a seat.
SIDENOTE: Did you catch that part? GOVERNMENT HEALTH INSURANCE CARD!!! It is a cute blue affair that comes with a free plastic cover. I got it the week I arrived in Japan. Fresh off the boat, new immigrant, terrible Japanese. Still, I qualified for inclusion and was so happy to finally be fully insured I hugged and kissed the dude in the City Office, jumping up and down and yelling as he sweated in his polyester shirt. It was the best experience of my first month in Japan. But I hadn’t had a chance to use the card until today…

So Dr. Maeda called for me from behind a door. Only wack thing about the office: the walls don’t touch the ceiling! So I guess they don’t care about patient privacy. Everyone can hear everything, so if you have something embarrassing I guess you write it down and slip the paper across the table, like a bank robber.
Anyways, I sat down and put my purse in the basket conveniently provided for this purpose. Dr. Maeda is a cheerful, tanned Japanese Santa Claus type. I wish I took a picture of him. He was laughing and practicing his English on me: “You run for train! Haha! Is dangerous! Don’t you listen to warning in station? Haha!” After a few minutes of poking and prodding my knee, he said “We do x-ray now.”
He took 2 x-rays and I waited another 5 minutes. Then he called me back into his office. “No break! Just contusion! Haha!! No jogging please!” He thoughtfully looked the word “contusion” up in his ancient dictionary while I was waiting. There was no interpreter but we got along ok with my so-so Japanese and his enthusiastic English.
He called the nurse to put a medicated stretchy patch thing over my whole knee, and cover it with a short white netting thing. Wrote a prescription for more of the disposable patches and sent me on my way with a laugh, saying in Japanese “If you were younger it would have healed faster! Haha, just kidding! Stop running for the train, ok? Haha!” I was glad to provide him with a source of hilarity for the afternoon, and stepped out of the office smiling. I sat back down on the bench to wait for the bill. I had been reassured “it won’t be too much!” but I had no idea what to expect.

Soon the secretary called me up. She returned my health insurance card, and gave me a new laminated one to use if I return to Dr. Maeda’s. Then the bill: $13.24 (JY 1,610). That’s it!! I’m on the “30% plan,” which means the government pays the other 70% of the office visit. That includes 2 x-rays, meeting with the doctor, and getting one patch applied. No appointment, no waiting, excellent service, an immediate diagnosis, everyone’s friendly. The whole affair took 30 minutes, out the door.

As for the prescription for the patches, those of us in from the medical hinterlands called the United States know that getting a prescription filled can be the most painful part of being sick. I remember as a kid waiting for hours in the Kaiser pharmacy, in a packed waiting room with screaming kids, dope fiends in rehab, people with rashes, and lots of coughing. As I started to leave Dr. Maeda’s, I was grateful I could put off filling the non-emergency prescription for the knee patches. But the secretary told me: “There’s a pharmacy just around the corner. Across from the 7-11. Take this there.” I hopped on my bike. “Feel better!” she waved as I pulled away.

At said pharmacy, I walked in and handed the paper to dude. He took it in the back. 4 minutes later, emerged with my stuff. Grand total? $2.80 (JY 340). 2 weeks of treatment, silver plastic bag, my receipt. I’m dumbfounded, but the pharmacist is looking at me like I stole something. “Uhh, do you need anything else?” “Uh, I guess not…” Nutrition posters and bottles of Shiseido shampoo lined the walls as I walk out.

Riding my bike home, I felt re-energized. Enthusiastic!! Healthy!! When did I last feel that way leaving the doctor’s office… Maybe it was the warm reception I received (despite being a grammar-mangling foreigner) or maybe it was the unknown drugs in the stretchy patch thing. Or maybe it was the fact that my life wasn’t interrupted by this minor injury, and society seems to agree that pro-active care for my knee is a pretty good idea. That’s calming. I pedalled down the hill to do some grocery shopping. I’m not worried about my knee, or any other part of my health, and can focus on my work and life.



PS - the story is from Michael Moore's Sicko website........it has customer reviews of insurance, us healthcare, and international healthcare. I know, some of you are screaming, "Michael Moore....he's the devil"..........well he didn't write the customer reviews...........they're written by people like you and me. Here's a link if you feel like reading some first hand accounts.......http://www.sicko-themovie.com/6/international-health-care/

...and you're in violation of your face!

[rushmc 23]

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Again, I agree. My only point was I wish in the WHO ranking the US was 100 or lower

Why? Would that make then stay away?


Really. though, please explain.

It would not make them stay away but to me it would mean we are better than we are today. And today is not that bad.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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I just learned more about the "standards" used by the WHO to find the rankings. And as Glen Beck said. I have only one problem with the US rating. It is too damed high. It really should be closer to 100. Then I feel we would be on a better track

Me and sv3n went over all that stuff last week didn't we? Maybe you didn't see the posts. I guess it doesn't really matter. I don't give a shit how they ranked us anyway, they're commies, most of us are not. one thing's for sure though, anyone who wants SHC in their country will not like the way you or I or Glenn Beck think about what is important.

I have been bouncing in and out of this thread and yes, I did see your evaluation of how the ratings were done. (Nicely done by the way) It was just interesting to here it come from someplace else. You are also right about, the the UN or the WHO likes it, I want nothing to do with it

So, I thought I'd give you an experience in socialized medicine................so before you say "it's the devil", you'd get an idea of what we're talking about. Here's a story from Japan that I found from a woman there on a student visa.I dont say its the devil. I am just saying what we have is better. To move toward those types of systems will only make things worse.


From Japan:
In honor of the movie that’s getting tremendous attention everywhere, I thought I’d share a personal experience of my own. I just got home from the most amazing experience, it’s called….. (drumroll)… SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!!! It was so exciting.

About 2 weeks ago I slammed my knee running for the train (late as usual). The concrete step crashed into the middle of my kneecap, and I could barely bend it for 2 days. Although it improved, I was worried cuz it was still hurting sometimes. I didn’t want it to heal weird, and start throbbing every time there was a rainstorm, or something like that. So I asked the lady at my foreign-students dormitory where I could get it checked out. She gave me a list of doctors in our neighborhood (about 15, all covering different specialties). We agreed I should go to the orthopedic surgeon; “no appointment is necessary, just show up” she said. I went at about 5 p.m. today on my bike.

Oh my goodness!!!!!! It was about the most divine customer-service experience of my LIFE! Dr. Maeda’s office was a little drab, but functional and clean. Not luxurious-looking like hospitals in the U.S., with lots of fake plants and plaques with donors names. Just wood-panel walls and old magazines. I gave a written description of my problem to ease the language barrier, and after filling out one short form (basically contact info only) and handing over my government health insurance card, I took a seat.
SIDENOTE: Did you catch that part? GOVERNMENT HEALTH INSURANCE CARD!!! It is a cute blue affair that comes with a free plastic cover. I got it the week I arrived in Japan. Fresh off the boat, new immigrant, terrible Japanese. Still, I qualified for inclusion and was so happy to finally be fully insured I hugged and kissed the dude in the City Office, jumping up and down and yelling as he sweated in his polyester shirt. It was the best experience of my first month in Japan. But I hadn’t had a chance to use the card until today…

So Dr. Maeda called for me from behind a door. Only wack thing about the office: the walls don’t touch the ceiling! So I guess they don’t care about patient privacy. Everyone can hear everything, so if you have something embarrassing I guess you write it down and slip the paper across the table, like a bank robber.
Anyways, I sat down and put my purse in the basket conveniently provided for this purpose. Dr. Maeda is a cheerful, tanned Japanese Santa Claus type. I wish I took a picture of him. He was laughing and practicing his English on me: “You run for train! Haha! Is dangerous! Don’t you listen to warning in station? Haha!” After a few minutes of poking and prodding my knee, he said “We do x-ray now.”
He took 2 x-rays and I waited another 5 minutes. Then he called me back into his office. “No break! Just contusion! Haha!! No jogging please!” He thoughtfully looked the word “contusion” up in his ancient dictionary while I was waiting. There was no interpreter but we got along ok with my so-so Japanese and his enthusiastic English.
He called the nurse to put a medicated stretchy patch thing over my whole knee, and cover it with a short white netting thing. Wrote a prescription for more of the disposable patches and sent me on my way with a laugh, saying in Japanese “If you were younger it would have healed faster! Haha, just kidding! Stop running for the train, ok? Haha!” I was glad to provide him with a source of hilarity for the afternoon, and stepped out of the office smiling. I sat back down on the bench to wait for the bill. I had been reassured “it won’t be too much!” but I had no idea what to expect.

Soon the secretary called me up. She returned my health insurance card, and gave me a new laminated one to use if I return to Dr. Maeda’s. Then the bill: $13.24 (JY 1,610). That’s it!! I’m on the “30% plan,” which means the government pays the other 70% of the office visit. That includes 2 x-rays, meeting with the doctor, and getting one patch applied. No appointment, no waiting, excellent service, an immediate diagnosis, everyone’s friendly. The whole affair took 30 minutes, out the door.

As for the prescription for the patches, those of us in from the medical hinterlands called the United States know that getting a prescription filled can be the most painful part of being sick. I remember as a kid waiting for hours in the Kaiser pharmacy, in a packed waiting room with screaming kids, dope fiends in rehab, people with rashes, and lots of coughing. As I started to leave Dr. Maeda’s, I was grateful I could put off filling the non-emergency prescription for the knee patches. But the secretary told me: “There’s a pharmacy just around the corner. Across from the 7-11. Take this there.” I hopped on my bike. “Feel better!” she waved as I pulled away.

At said pharmacy, I walked in and handed the paper to dude. He took it in the back. 4 minutes later, emerged with my stuff. Grand total? $2.80 (JY 340). 2 weeks of treatment, silver plastic bag, my receipt. I’m dumbfounded, but the pharmacist is looking at me like I stole something. “Uhh, do you need anything else?” “Uh, I guess not…” Nutrition posters and bottles of Shiseido shampoo lined the walls as I walk out.

Riding my bike home, I felt re-energized. Enthusiastic!! Healthy!! When did I last feel that way leaving the doctor’s office… Maybe it was the warm reception I received (despite being a grammar-mangling foreigner) or maybe it was the unknown drugs in the stretchy patch thing. Or maybe it was the fact that my life wasn’t interrupted by this minor injury, and society seems to agree that pro-active care for my knee is a pretty good idea. That’s calming. I pedalled down the hill to do some grocery shopping. I’m not worried about my knee, or any other part of my health, and can focus on my work and life.



PS - the story is from Michael Moore's Sicko website........it has customer reviews of insurance, us healthcare, and international healthcare. I know, some of you are screaming, "Michael Moore....he's the devil"..........well he didn't write the customer reviews...........they're written by people like you and me. Here's a link if you feel like reading some first hand accounts.......http://www.sicko-themovie.com/6/international-health-care/

I am glad you had a good exerience. I still don't want it here. For the most part we get that here everyday. there and here will also have horor stories I just know that were the gov run health care there are more problems than in the us today.

In the end. It is not about health care. If politions want it (and many polls have shown in the US universal health care is low on the priority list) it is about control. It has been the Dems screaming for it for 15 years. The media is right there with them. Keep sending the measage there is a problem long enough and many times over people start to believe it.

Problems? Yes. Crisis? No

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[sv3n 0]

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I am glad you had a good exerience. I still don't want it here. For the most part we get that here everyday. there and here will also have horor stories I just know that were the gov run health care there are more problems than in the us today.

In the end. It is not about health care. If politions want it (and many polls have shown in the US universal health care is low on the priority list) it is about control. It has been the Dems screaming for it for 15 years. The media is right there with them. Keep sending the measage there is a problem long enough and many times over people start to believe it.

Problems? Yes. Crisis? No

Personally, 18,000 people a year dying because they were turned away and couldn't afford insurance..........that's a crisis. With any system there will be horror stories.......but the fact that......

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Then the bill: $13.24 (JY 1,610). That’s it!! I’m on the “30% plan,” which means the government pays the other 70% of the office visit. That includes 2 x-rays, meeting with the doctor, and getting one patch applied. No appointment, no waiting, excellent service, an immediate diagnosis, everyone’s friendly. The whole affair took 30 minutes, out the door.

and.....

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At said pharmacy, I walked in and handed the paper to dude. He took it in the back. 4 minutes later, emerged with my stuff. Grand total? $2.80 (JY 340). 2 weeks of treatment, silver plastic bag, my receipt.

and the fact that everyone is covered, including a foreigner on a student visa, that's pretty amazing.


Then I look at my last doctor's visit.........back pain....my first Clear and Pull jump, got a nice wind draft right as I flared on the landing......got a 10 to 20 ft ride up and then got to PLF into a bean field, you know the nice raised rows of dirt....yeah they don't make a great rolling surface. Anyways, get there.....wait 25 minutes in the waiting room, nurse takes me in the room and asks me what's up and leaves, 10 minutes later the doctor comes in and talks with me about what hurts and has me move around a little bit...."ok, let's get some x-rays" and he leaves........15 minutes later the x-ray tech comes and grabs me to get x-rays, they only take a couple of minutes and I get escorted back to the room.....20 minutes later the doctor walks back in......you're all good, stretch...ice...jump if you like.

The bill: Doctor's Visit - $119 and 2 X-rays - $158

No patches and no medication........just a talk with the doctor and 2 x-rays.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[1969912 0]

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Someone may have posted this already, but I really didn't feel like reading all 13 pages of posts. Wow lawrocket, you created quite a discussion. But here's an idea: PREVENTION. Pre............

DFWAJG,

Thank you. Good idea. Avoiding illness is a pretty good way to keep HC costs down. I can picture a real problem with cv disease 40-50 years from now (Like there's not already one). I never see kids out riding around on bikes or getting exercise anymore. When we were kids, the neighborhood was full of activity. We'd take of on bikes in the morning and stay active doin something all day, thendo it again after dinner. I wonder if kids just sit around playing vid games nowadays.

anyway,

thanks for the suggestions!

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[sv3n 0]

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Someone may have posted this already, but I really didn't feel like reading all 13 pages of posts. Wow lawrocket, you created quite a discussion. But here's an idea: PREVENTION. Pre............

DFWAJG,

Thank you. Good idea. Avoiding illness is a pretty good way to keep HC costs down. I can picture a real problem with cv disease 40-50 years from now (Like there's not already one). I never see kids out riding around on bikes or getting exercise anymore. When we were kids, the neighborhood was full of activity. We'd take of on bikes in the morning and stay active doin something all day, thendo it again after dinner. I wonder if kids just sit around playing vid games nowadays.

anyway,

thanks for the suggestions!

I think it's a great point, we spend way to much time coming up with cures rather than fixing the cause.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[nathaniel 0]

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here's an idea: PREVENTION.

Here's a rebuttal.

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As Dr. Mark R. Chassin, a former New York state health commissioner, says, preventive care "reduces costs, yes, for the individual who didn't get sick. But that savings is overwhelmed by the cost of continuously treating everybody else."

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[drae 0]

I agree with you 100%.
However, what would you do if your child was ill, you had no health coverage and no income saved to use in cases such as this? I would take mine to the ER since I know they do not turn people away as a rule. There are some people that are doing the best they can with the skills and education they have and they are not able to save money for emergencies. Some people work for minimum wage and have a couple of kids to take care of. They often earn just enough to be above the eligibility limits for Medicaid. Would you suggest they cut their hours or quit their job? This happens, and they do just that because they feel like it is the only answer...and if it is not the only answer, please give me another one, besides finding a better job, and I will pass it on.
I work with this population. I am also in a rural area and there is not much in the way of jobs. The local WalMart or Food Lion will give them a whopping 25 - 30 hours weekly...no health coverage, and those are the good jobs.

[lawrocket 3]

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I think it's a great point, we spend way to much time coming up with cures rather than fixing the cause.

So, I guess another issue is - should society bear the burden of taking care of those who don't take care of themselves? The 40 year old with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and congestive heart failure from smoking and being obese? Should we just say, "We'll take care of you?"

I think not. For society to be at its best, society needs to get rid of the drags, doesn't it?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[sv3n 0]

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I think it's a great point, we spend way to much time coming up with cures rather than fixing the cause.

So, I guess another issue is - should society bear the burden of taking care of those who don't take care of themselves? The 40 year old with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and congestive heart failure from smoking and being obese? Should we just say, "We'll take care of you?"

I think not. For society to be at its best, society needs to get rid of the drags, doesn't it?

Like a modern day natural selection?

That's a slippery slope.

Where does it end..........well your child has down's syndrom and you were warned not to have children after the age of 40 because of the high risk of that, so we're not going to cover any of your child's care?

Or....you knew that blah blah blah thousand people a year get injured in car accidents and chose to drive, therefore it's not covered.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[sv3n 0]

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I agree with you 100%.
However, what would you do if your child was ill, you had no health coverage and no income saved to use in cases such as this? I would take mine to the ER since I know they do not turn people away as a rule. There are some people that are doing the best they can with the skills and education they have and they are not able to save money for emergencies. Some people work for minimum wage and have a couple of kids to take care of. They often earn just enough to be above the eligibility limits for Medicaid. Would you suggest they cut their hours or quit their job? This happens, and they do just that because they feel like it is the only answer...and if it is not the only answer, please give me another one, besides finding a better job, and I will pass it on.
I work with this population. I am also in a rural area and there is not much in the way of jobs. The local WalMart or Food Lion will give them a whopping 25 - 30 hours weekly...no health coverage, and those are the good jobs.

Exactly, unless you're around that you just don't know.............if you've had health insurance all of your life and are well-off it seems impossible that it's something that some people can't afford....so they must just be lazy and unwilling to help themselves.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[1969912 0]

ociety needs to get rid of the drags, doesn't it?


Are you that silver-tongued in court?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[lawrocket 3]

The Down Syndrome kid had no choice. The Down Syndrome kid was, before he was his parents' seed, a free spirit in another stage of life. He wasn't imprisoned by a body of flesh but he was freed by a body of light.

There were no questions - only answers.
No weakness- only stength.
THere was no darkenss - only light.

He was a free being, a spirit, a God, but his parents had to SCREW and bring his ass down. He didn't ask to be born. He didn't say, "Mom and dad, please have me so I can be the poster boy for birth control."

No. He should be covered. Those who have no choice about their circumstances should be covered.

Those who PUT themselves in that position? Those who are victims of moments of neglect? yes, give it to them.

Those who suffer emphysema from smoking? Screw em. Those who suffer COPD from smoking? Screw em. I'm not covering their asses - they should have covered their own.

Those who have mesothelioma. Help them.

It's a simple rule.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[sv3n 0]

But who decides what was avoidable and what was not? See.....that's a slippery slope.

Cause while it's not the child's fault it is the parents' fault and they'll be the ones held accountable, not the child.

I don't disagree with you that there are a lot of things that can be removed through prevention and education.

Or take it one step further remove all the unnecessary bad things. But there's two sides to that too...............

one side - get rid of all the things bad like cigarettes. There's absolutely no point to them....they serve no purpose whatsoever.

But then there's the other side where does it stop.......high fat foods, alcohol, etc. There's no purpose to high fat foods.....oh it tastes good.....but there's hardly any nutritional value and they cause more diseases than that taiwanese hooker over there. Same with alcohol......I like a drink. But it causes diseases, is addictive, and is a drug.

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The Down Syndrome kid had no choice. The Down Syndrome kid was, before he was his parents' seed, a free spirit in another stage of life. He wasn't imprisoned by a body of flesh but he was freed by a body of light.

There were no questions - only answers.
No weakness- only stength.
THere was no darkenss - only light.

He was a free being, a spirit, a God, but his parents had to SCREW and bring his ass down. He didn't ask to be born. He didn't say, "Mom and dad, please have me so I can be the poster boy for birth control."

No. He should be covered. Those who have no choice about their circumstances should be covered.

Those who PUT themselves in that position? Those who are victims of moments of neglect? yes, give it to them.

Those who suffer emphysema from smoking? Screw em. Those who suffer COPD from smoking? Screw em. I'm not covering their asses - they should have covered their own.

Those who have mesothelioma. Help them.

It's a simple rule.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[billvon 3,073]

>The 40 year old with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and congestive
>heart failure from smoking and being obese? Should we just say, "We'll
>take care of you?" I think not.

I think so. Very, very few people will walk by a dying man and say "hey, you look fat, so I can't be bothered to call 911." Likewise, most ER's will not refuse to aid someone having an MI because they smoke.

Although I agree that extraordinary care (heart transplant for example) should be on his nickel.

>For society to be at its best, society needs to get rid of the drags, doesn't it?

I assume you're kidding there.

[georgerussia 0]

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With no price controls, free-market U.S. medicine provides the incentives that lead to innovation breakthroughs in new drugs and other medical technologies.

I mentioned something like that before. What really impressed me was that some people were pointing out that other countries did a "better job" by regulating the prices of those new drugs and other medical technologies, which had been developed outside their country.

I really wonder what would happen in those countries if U.S. put embargo on drug export to any country which has the drug costs regulation?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

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by eliminating these three chief problems, not smoking, not putting crap food into your body, not abusing alcohol and drugs, you will put most doctors and nearly all hospitals out of business.

I don't think there is any adult who does not know this. Everyone knows that smoking, alcohol and McDonnalds abuse damages your health. Everyone knows you should exercize. The problem is that people do not do what they know they have to, and everyone has a looks-to-be-valid reason not to do it.

Ask some smoker friends, does they know that smoking is harmful, and could lead to cancer? Hell, yes! So why do they smoke? You'll get a lot of reasons, the most important of which is that people are lazy, and do not like to change their lifestyle.

Same with obesity. Everyone knows what gets you fat: you are getting more energy than your body needs, so the body saves extra. All you need it is to maintain it: either eat less, or spend more. But, again, it requires lifestyle change, and the people do not want to do it.

And the question is, how to do it? Establish a Lifestyle Police?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

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However, what would you do if your child was ill, you had no health coverage and no income saved to use in cases such as this?

Like my neighbor bumber sticker says, "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em". Cruel, but very true.

It's all about personal responsibility. It looks like some people take more planning, and exercise more care and responsibility when they bring a dog or a cat than when they decide to have children.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[1969912 0]

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With no price controls, free-market U.S. medicine provides the incentives that lead to innovation breakthroughs in new drugs and other medical technologies.

I mentioned something like that before. What really impressed me was that some people were pointing out that other countries did a "better job" by regulating the prices of those new drugs and other medical technologies, which had been developed outside their country.



I really wonder what would happen in those countries if U.S. put embargo on drug export to any country which has the drug costs regulation?

Not the kind of "good job" I'd be proud of. Not sure how that works because if they were fixing prices, couldn't we just refuse to sell to them?


Somehow, though Canada can sell a drug at a low enough price that poeple here are willing to drive for hours to buy it. Any idea how they can do that? I heard somewhere that the CA govt. actually buys all the drugs and then doles them out to each seller. Here, 300 different hospitals and pharms might place individual orders, and not have much bargaining power individually. I'll look into it.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

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Somehow, though Canada can sell a drug at a low enough price that poeple here are willing to drive for hours to buy it. Any idea how they can do that?

Probably in the same way as you could buy a DVD in U.S. for $29.99, and buy the same (non-pirated) DVD in China or Russia for $4. Like "If we charge them 29.99, those cheap b..rds will buy a pirated copy for $2, so this way we at least get something".

BTW, someone mentioned drug ads. I just wonder whether anyone watches them, and really asks the doctor about those drugs? This would imply that the patient who just watches TV knows more about drugs than his doctor; in such a case I would definitely switch to another doctor. And if we assume that a doctor knows more about drugs than his patient - why ask the doctor about them?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

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I just learned more about the "standards" used by the WHO to find the rankings. And as Glen Beck said. I have only one problem with the US rating. It is too damed high. It really should be closer to 100. Then I feel we would be on a better track

Me and sv3n went over all that stuff last week didn't we? Maybe you didn't see the posts. I guess it doesn't really matter. I don't give a shit how they ranked us anyway, they're commies, most of us are not. one thing's for sure though, anyone who wants SHC in their country will not like the way you or I or Glenn Beck think about what is important.

I have been bouncing in and out of this thread and yes, I did see your evaluation of how the ratings were done. (Nicely done by the way) It was just interesting to here it come from someplace else. You are also right about, the the UN or the WHO likes it, I want nothing to do with it

So, I thought I'd give you an experience in socialized medicine................so before you say "it's the devil", you'd get an idea of what we're talking about. Here's a story from Japan that I found from a woman there on a student visa.


From Japan:
In honor of the movie that’s getting tremendous attention everywhere, I thought I’d share a personal experience of my own. I just got home from the most amazing experience, it’s called….. (drumroll)… SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!!! It was so exciting.

About 2 weeks ago I slammed my knee running for the train (late as usual). The concrete step crashed into the middle of my kneecap, and I could barely bend it for 2 days. Although it improved, I was worried cuz it was still hurting sometimes. I didn’t want it to heal weird, and start throbbing every time there was a rainstorm, or something like that. So I asked the lady at my foreign-students dormitory where I could get it checked out. She gave me a list of doctors in our neighborhood (about 15, all covering different specialties). We agreed I should go to the orthopedic surgeon; “no appointment is necessary, just show up” she said. I went at about 5 p.m. today on my bike.

Oh my goodness!!!!!! It was about the most divine customer-service experience of my LIFE! Dr. Maeda’s office was a little drab, but functional and clean. Not luxurious-looking like hospitals in the U.S., with lots of fake plants and plaques with donors names. Just wood-panel walls and old magazines. I gave a written description of my problem to ease the language barrier, and after filling out one short form (basically contact info only) and handing over my government health insurance card, I took a seat.
SIDENOTE: Did you catch that part? GOVERNMENT HEALTH INSURANCE CARD!!! It is a cute blue affair that comes with a free plastic cover. I got it the week I arrived in Japan. Fresh off the boat, new immigrant, terrible Japanese. Still, I qualified for inclusion and was so happy to finally be fully insured I hugged and kissed the dude in the City Office, jumping up and down and yelling as he sweated in his polyester shirt. It was the best experience of my first month in Japan. But I hadn’t had a chance to use the card until today…

So Dr. Maeda called for me from behind a door. Only wack thing about the office: the walls don’t touch the ceiling! So I guess they don’t care about patient privacy. Everyone can hear everything, so if you have something embarrassing I guess you write it down and slip the paper across the table, like a bank robber.
Anyways, I sat down and put my purse in the basket conveniently provided for this purpose. Dr. Maeda is a cheerful, tanned Japanese Santa Claus type. I wish I took a picture of him. He was laughing and practicing his English on me: “You run for train! Haha! Is dangerous! Don’t you listen to warning in station? Haha!” After a few minutes of poking and prodding my knee, he said “We do x-ray now.”
He took 2 x-rays and I waited another 5 minutes. Then he called me back into his office. “No break! Just contusion! Haha!! No jogging please!” He thoughtfully looked the word “contusion” up in his ancient dictionary while I was waiting. There was no interpreter but we got along ok with my so-so Japanese and his enthusiastic English.
He called the nurse to put a medicated stretchy patch thing over my whole knee, and cover it with a short white netting thing. Wrote a prescription for more of the disposable patches and sent me on my way with a laugh, saying in Japanese “If you were younger it would have healed faster! Haha, just kidding! Stop running for the train, ok? Haha!” I was glad to provide him with a source of hilarity for the afternoon, and stepped out of the office smiling. I sat back down on the bench to wait for the bill. I had been reassured “it won’t be too much!” but I had no idea what to expect.

Soon the secretary called me up. She returned my health insurance card, and gave me a new laminated one to use if I return to Dr. Maeda’s. Then the bill: $13.24 (JY 1,610). That’s it!! I’m on the “30% plan,” which means the government pays the other 70% of the office visit. That includes 2 x-rays, meeting with the doctor, and getting one patch applied. No appointment, no waiting, excellent service, an immediate diagnosis, everyone’s friendly. The whole affair took 30 minutes, out the door.

As for the prescription for the patches, those of us in from the medical hinterlands called the United States know that getting a prescription filled can be the most painful part of being sick. I remember as a kid waiting for hours in the Kaiser pharmacy, in a packed waiting room with screaming kids, dope fiends in rehab, people with rashes, and lots of coughing. As I started to leave Dr. Maeda’s, I was grateful I could put off filling the non-emergency prescription for the knee patches. But the secretary told me: “There’s a pharmacy just around the corner. Across from the 7-11. Take this there.” I hopped on my bike. “Feel better!” she waved as I pulled away.

At said pharmacy, I walked in and handed the paper to dude. He took it in the back. 4 minutes later, emerged with my stuff. Grand total? $2.80 (JY 340). 2 weeks of treatment, silver plastic bag, my receipt. I’m dumbfounded, but the pharmacist is looking at me like I stole something. “Uhh, do you need anything else?” “Uh, I guess not…” Nutrition posters and bottles of Shiseido shampoo lined the walls as I walk out.

Riding my bike home, I felt re-energized. Enthusiastic!! Healthy!! When did I last feel that way leaving the doctor’s office… Maybe it was the warm reception I received (despite being a grammar-mangling foreigner) or maybe it was the unknown drugs in the stretchy patch thing. Or maybe it was the fact that my life wasn’t interrupted by this minor injury, and society seems to agree that pro-active care for my knee is a pretty good idea. That’s calming. I pedalled down the hill to do some grocery shopping. I’m not worried about my knee, or any other part of my health, and can focus on my work and life.



PS - the story is from Michael Moore's Sicko website........it has customer reviews of insurance, us healthcare, and international healthcare. I know, some of you are screaming, "Michael Moore....he's the devil"..........well he didn't write the customer reviews...........they're written by people like you and me. Here's a link if you feel like reading some first hand accounts.......http://www.sicko-themovie.com/6/international-health-care/

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Flippin awsome. She ought to feel really good about having somebody else pay for her services! Hmm over the years that kind of thing could add up. The highly taxed workers in Japan probably feel a little less incentive to work hard, and on and on. It is really good that she was able to get prompt, high quality service on par with ours, I wouldn't feel good having someone else pay for it.


Which country feeds a lot of the world? US

Which went to teh moon? US

Developed the PC and MAC? US

Most Nobel's in medicine? US

Best fighter planes? US

Best food at lowest cost? US

Best medical equipment? US

Best disease control (CDC)? HellifIKnow, but CDC might not suck too bad

And on and on.......


Things like SHC tend to stifle innovation and hard work.


The wealthiest, most productive country in the world? US

The least socialist and most free-market? Dunno, but it is most certainly the US

Rant complete

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG