Don't blame guns or the US, UK society is to blame.

[Skyrad 0]

Two youths aged 18 and 14 have been arrested on suspicion of murdering the 11-year-old boy who was shot dead as he played football in Liverpool last night.
Rhys Jones was with two friends outside the Fir Tree pub in Croxteth when he was hit in the neck by one of three shots fired by a teenager on a BMX bike…… Rhys was kicking around a football when the teenage gunman, whose face was covered by a hood, fired his three shots.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2312504.ece

The litany of young victims of violent crime has horrified police and public alike. Jessie James, 15, was shot dead in a park in the tough Moss Side district of Manchester. James Andre Smartt-Ford, 16, of New Malden, Surrey, died after being shot at Streatham. Three days later Michael Dosunmu, of Peckham, South London, was shot dead by gunmen who broke into his home just days after he had celebrated his 15th birthday.
On Valentine’s Day Billy Cox, 15, was shot dead on the doorstep of his home in Clapham, South London. Martin Dinnegan, 14, was stabbed in Islington, North London. Three males have been charged with murder. Sam Brown, a schoolboy aged 16, was stabbed to death on a council estate in Blackpool in May.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2311506.ece

Girls chant kill him
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article1522408.ece

Teen murders footballer
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2017588.ece

Stabbed to death for looking the wrong way
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article1996525.ece

Boy shot dead by youths on bicycles
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2145351.ece

Killed for complaining about rubbish
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6948537.stm

Special Operation against Carnival Knife crime
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5278432.stm

The problem is that we now have a society where there is no discipline and the rule of law is ridiculed. Children run riot safe in the knowledge that they either won't go to jail and even if the did they wouldn't serve long and it would increase their street cred if they did. They also know that adults won't say anything if they throw litter, bully people, spit at passers by, torture animals and generally do whatever they want because the adults are frightened of them and powerless under the law (for all intent and purposes). Police are afraid to go after the gangs.
Sure these street monkeys dress like they just walked out of south central LA and talk like 50 Cents but why? Don't blame America blame ourselves. With no British culture to identify with these kids identify with the gang culture of the US. Gangsta rap in the US doesn't cause violence it is an expression of it. Here maybe its slightly different as the street monkeys are aping the US gang culture.
What we need is a British culture and strong national identity which we have lost. We need a police force that hasn't been emasculated by liberal laws and the courts to back the victims rights not the criminals. Patriotism shouldn't be a dirty word and its time we faced the fact that the UK is full. One in four children in this country are now born to at least one foriegn parent, no wonder there is no sense of comunity or feeling of belonging in the UK amoungst the youth.
We need something to replace the gangs, a return to the house system in the schools, competitive sport, greater support for sports and athletics clubs, more cadet units (millitary and police and civil) and more support for them from central government too.
More and more profesionals are leaving the UK to fnd a better life elsewhere. I've decided to stay and try and build a better community and return these countries to better times.
I'd like to know what you think the UK needs to do to recover from its current social decay.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[mnealtx 0]

I honestly hope that the UK can find a solution.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Skyrad 0]

Any suggestions?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Any suggestions?

Short of a sea change in attitude and reaction to crime....no, unfortunately. It's something that we need in the US, as well.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mr2mk1g 10]

Hire someone who will do what Herr Blair promised and actually be "tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime". All Tony did was pass new laws and tinkered in a constant attempt to keep Labour in the press' good books. He was all spin and no substance. And arrest Alastair Campbell for... for... I dunno, treason or something. It's all his fault! the little shit.

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Any suggestions?

Like what has been mentioned, a psychic change in the perception of criminal activity and how to enforce laws is what's needed.

We need it in the US to an extent, but we don't shy away from throwing kids in jail. Our soft spot is in the enforcement of immigration and border protection. It could be argued that some of our Judges are warped as well.

However, many of the laws, in both our countries I imagine, are already on the books. It would seem there is a lack of political will to wield a big stick in some of these areas.

In the end, grass roots initiatives have to grow from the bottom up. Reclaiming one's neighborhood starts with the residents, not the police.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[sv3n 0]

Quote

I honestly hope that the UK can find a solution.

ditto............that's pretty f'd up.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[bluepill 0]

Animosity between groups of youths has always been around and I don’t mean just gangs. When I was in my teens for a period, there was always some trouble kicking off. It was the same for my father.

The only real difference these days is the availability of lethal weapons and the desire to use them.

BP

[Skyrad 0]

I agree with your post. Especialy about the polititions. Crime and general anti social behaviour just isn't a sexy headline catcher. I think the reason for the that is that it takes a long time to enforce a change which as you quite rightly pointed out must engage the public at grassroots level. In this world of media power it just doesn't pay for career polititions to get to close to the grime. Mud as they say sticks, if their policies don't work they're doomed, if they take to long t work they're doomed. If they can make a quick win on a few easy topics then its in their best interests to do so and leave the hard unpopular changes well alone. (Unless your name happens to be Churchill or Thatcher)....*Climbing into my asbestos suit*

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,489]

Quote

Sure these street monkeys dress like they just walked out of south central LA and talk like 50 Cents but why? Don't blame America blame ourselves. With no British culture to identify with these kids identify with the gang culture of the US. Gangsta rap in the US doesn't cause violence it is an expression of it. Here maybe its slightly different as the street monkeys are aping the US gang culture.

What we need is a British culture and strong national identity which we have lost. We need a police force that hasn't been emasculated by liberal laws and the courts to back the victims rights not the criminals. Patriotism shouldn't be a dirty word and its time we faced the fact that the UK is full.

This is an incredibly strange line of reasoning.

You say that because the UK is not patriotic enough our youth turns to American style gang culture instead.

Uhhh, America puts a far, far higher value on patriotsm and national identity than we do, and it is America that has generated that gang culture in the first place!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[bexren76 0]

I'm v encouraged to hear someone talking not just about Britain going down the toilet and how they hate it but the fact that they are willing to work for change.

I love my country and like to think I am trying to do my bit by being a criminal defence lawyer (although I suspect I am seen as bleeding heart lefty, especially now that one of the court ushers has taken to calling me a communist in jest!!) but in my view we face a crisis of gargantuan and complex proportions which we can't even hope to address without a willingness and cooperation from both politicians and society at large.

Looking at how we tacke crime alone is not enough. There has to be a willingess to address the deep roots of crime in the community, such as severe deprivation of all kinds. I would never advocate fluffiness without punishment but I see children every day of my working life who as soon as you find out their background you know never stood a chance to start with but there is no sign of Social Services intervening and no money to do it. These kids are so damaged you know they are very unlikely ever to be useful members of society.

Trouble is as long as this is seen simply as bleeding heart leftism we will never fix the vicious circle we are all in. If the public could see me sat in a courtroom with a 13 year old boy crying his eyes out, facing prison and telling me he has no future and no-one cares about him, while his drunken parents argue about whose fault it is, they might begin to understand the scale of what needs to be done.

PS If there IS a way to do this which involves stringing Campbell and Blair up for something I'd be pretty happy!

[vortexring 0]

I believe the problems as a majority stem from poor and indisciplined schooling.

As simple as that.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[1969912 0]

That was really well written, so my suggestion would be to send it to some newspapers. It might geta a few people thinking.


I don't know. Nothing will be fast, obviously.

Try to find others who feel the same way, then get together and brainstorm.

what's it like in Ireland? Have they gone to shit as well?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Butters 0]

Beware of the British National Party ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[1969912 0]

British National Party,

Which US party would they be similar to?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

This is an incredibly strange line of reasoning.

You say that because the UK is not patriotic enough our youth turns to American style gang culture instead.

Uhhh, America puts a far, far higher value on patriotsm and national identity than we do, and it is America that has generated that gang culture in the first place!

Are you just interested in placing the blame elsewhere? Or do you have any ideas on how to remedy/improve the situation?

[Zipp0 1]

There seems to be some worldwide tradition of young blacks gunning eachother down. Over here we pretty much gave up and let them go at it, and try to keep out of the way. And yes, that sounds fucked up, but it's fairly true.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Skyrad 0]

And thats what make it attractive to UK youths who have no national identity of their own but feel disposesed and appart from thier society. They are looking to belong and are drawn to a sub culture that they can easily identify with. If they had a more positive UK identity that they could identify with then maybe they wouldn't be so attracted to the concept of US Gangsta sub culture. I argue that it is filling a vacuum.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[1969912 0]

Any idea where thos kids got the guns?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Butters 0]

Quote

And thats what make it attractive to UK youths who have no national identity of their own but feel disposesed and appart from thier society. They are looking to belong and are drawn to a sub culture that they can easily identify with.

Once again, beware of the British National Party ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[jakee 1,489]

Quote

And thats what make it attractive to UK youths who have no national identity of their own but feel disposesed and appart from thier society. They are looking to belong and are drawn to a sub culture that they can easily identify with. If they had a more positive UK identity that they could identify with then maybe they wouldn't be so attracted to the concept of US Gangsta sub culture. I argue that it is filling a vacuum.

American kids are exposed to much more of a natonal identity/ patriotic type culture than UK kids - and guess what, that didn't stop them from forming the street gangs that you say some UK kids are now emulating.

So why do you think that programming UK kids with more patriotism and national identity will stop them from forming street gangs just like those in America?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

So why do you think that programming UK kids with more patriotism and national identity will stop them from forming street gangs just like those in America?

Considering America offers the be-all end-all, you Brits certainly have a daunting problem.

[popsjumper 2]

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...I love my country and like to think I am trying to do my bit by being a criminal defence lawyer (although I suspect I am seen as bleeding heart lefty...

The bulk of your post says that indeed you are a bleeding-heart lefty.

Quote

There has to be a willingess to address the deep roots of crime in the community, such as severe deprivation of all kinds.

Other than lack of food, clothing and shelter, what deprivations are contributing to the problem?

Quote

...but I see children every day of my working life who as soon as you find out their background you know never stood a chance to start with...

So, right off the bat, you are providing them with a built-in excuse for their behavior.

Quote

but there is no sign of Social Services intervening and no money to do it.

So the problem is a lack of SS intervention and no money?

Quote

...These kids are so damaged you know they are very unlikely ever to be useful members of society.

Damaged? Implying some external force is preventing them from being responsible for their actions????

Quote

If the public could see me sat in a courtroom with a 13 year old boy crying his eyes out, facing prison and telling me he has no future and no-one cares about him...

Oh WAAAA, WAAA WAAA, poor pitiful me. What he needs is a good kick in the ass to grow up and be responsible for his actions. And you, being taken in by that crap, is the major contributor to the problem. And on top of that, the freakin' judges and juries letting them off with a smack on the wrist sends a message..is it the one you want to send?

Quote

while his drunken parents argue about whose fault it is,

Does this indicate anything to you?

Quote

PS If there IS a way to do this which involves stringing Campbell and Blair up for something I'd be pretty happy!

Typical. Blame it on the politicians when in reality it's in YOUR hands.

Here's what you do.
- Stop caving to the idea that nobody is responsible for their actions because they have economic problems. What ever happened to the idea of being poor AND honest? Uneducated AND honest? Etc., etc., etc.

- Take charge. Clean up your own neighborhood by refusing to buckle to the bozos tryin to terrorize you.

- Throw the little shits in serious jail time and make the neglecting parents do it with them.

- Put the message across - Do the crime, Do the time.

- Put the message across - If you can't/won't teach your kids responsibility, the state will do it for you...at a cost.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Remster 30]

Quote

This is an incredibly strange line of reasoning.

You say that because the UK is not patriotic enough our youth turns to American style gang culture instead.

Uhhh, America puts a far, far higher value on patriotsm and national identity than we do, and it is America that has generated that gang culture in the first place!

Combine that with the troubling existance of extreme far right, pro national gangs in the UK, and his argument self destroys.

Remster

[Scoop 0]

What we really need is more prisons and tougher sentances. The penalty side of the justice system is laughable. I feel that the police do a stirling job only to be let down by the courts and judges whos hands are tied with what sentances they can impose

Makes me wonder why we bother sometimes