Don't blame guns or the US, UK society is to blame.

[quade 4]

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Any suggestions?

Darken your cloths and strike a violent pose,
maybe they'll leave you alone, but not me.(*)(**)

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mr2mk1g 10]

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British National Party,

Which US party would they be similar to?

Dunno. Does the Ku Klux Klan have a political wing?

[Skyrad 0]

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And thats what make it attractive to UK youths who have no national identity of their own but feel disposesed and appart from thier society. They are looking to belong and are drawn to a sub culture that they can easily identify with.

Once again, beware of the British National Party ...

And attitudes like that perpetuate the problem. the belife that to be patriotic and to have a national identity equates with being either a facist or a Nazi.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[mr2mk1g 10]

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The penalty side of the justice system is laughable. I feel that the police do a stirling job only to be let down by the courts and judges whos hands are tied with what sentances they can impose

That's utterly Labour's fault. They've brought in stringent guidelines for judges, tying their hands in almost all circumstances to lay down specific mathematically calculated sentences no matter what the circumstances.

Judges used to be trusted with wide discretion to apply a just sentence for the individual crime. No more!

This nonsense hit the headlines last year when one judge was castigated by the red-tops for giving someone a stupidly lenient sentence.

Politicians even called for the judge to be removed.

The next day the judge wrote and article and had a rant in the press pointing out his full judgement included something to the effect that he wanted to give a much more stringent sentence and but for new govt. guidelines he would have done so under the old system, but because of the new guidelines he was bound to give the stupidly lenient one and went on to criticise the govt. in his actual judgement!

Suddenly the tables were turned and the politician who had called for the judge to be removed, (who just so happened to be one of the key architects of the guidelines), was now the one the pack was baying for.

Judges need to be given back their discretion. That's what we pay them for. They are not there as glorified a Carol Vorderman, to do a quick bit of maths while wearing a silly costume, (because that's what their sentencing powers have been reduced to). Sentencing guidelines need to go back to being guidelines. Judges should be permitted to punish to the full extent of the law where its appropriate to do so - and the decision of when it is appropriate should go back to vesting with the judiciary.

[Skyrad 0]

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Any idea where thos kids got the guns?

Guns are very easy to get illegally. Getting a legal one is a real task.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Not just that would work but in conjunction with promoting community and a sense of civic pride and ownership just might.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Zipp0 1]

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Any idea where thos kids got the guns?

Guns are very easy to get illegally. Getting a legal one is a real task.

ATTENTION USA GUN CONTROL IDIOTS. PLEASE SEE THE ABOVE.

Thank you for your time.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Scoop 0]

You're right. The trouble is that freedom for the judges will never be restored until there is sufficient space to house the criminals.

I've got people I deal with who have been arrested 30 odd times and never been inside

[Skyrad 0]

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This is an incredibly strange line of reasoning.

You say that because the UK is not patriotic enough our youth turns to American style gang culture instead.

Uhhh, America puts a far, far higher value on patriotsm and national identity than we do, and it is America that has generated that gang culture in the first place!

Combine that with the troubling existance of extreme far right, pro national gangs in the UK, and his argument self destroys.

Pro national gangs??? You've got to be joking.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Butters 0]

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And thats what make it attractive to UK youths who have no national identity of their own but feel disposesed and appart from thier society. They are looking to belong and are drawn to a sub culture that they can easily identify with.

Once again, beware of the British National Party ...

And attitudes like that perpetuate the problem. the belife that to be patriotic and to have a national identity equates with being either a facist or a Nazi.

Are you stating that my attitude is perpetuating the problem?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Remster 30]

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Pro national gangs??? You've got to be joking.

Oh yeah.. Its real funny...

http://www.skinheadnation.co.uk/
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/leedsbradford/2007/06/372843.html
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1519592
http://www.bnp.org.uk/reg_showarticle.php?contentID=183

Remster

[Richards 0]

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And attitudes like that perpetuate the problem. the belife that to be patriotic and to have a national identity equates with being either a facist or a Nazi.

[1969912 0]

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British National Party,

Which US party would they be similar to?

Dunno. Does the Ku Klux Klan have a political wing?

No, thank God. The big danger here is the opposite side of the spectrum

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Remster 30]

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And attitudes like that perpetuate the problem. the belife that to be patriotic and to have a national identity equates with being either a facist or a Nazi.

You hit the nail right on the head.

[Richards 0]

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You obviously dont know much about the BNP then Richard. What makes the BNP a racis organisation is not that it has a facade of patriotism, its that its based on racism and facism.

[JohnRich 4]

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Skyrad: The problem is that we now have a society where there is no discipline and the rule of law is ridiculed.

Phew! If I had posted that message, everyone would be attacking me for picking on the Brits, and mixing up the UK and England.

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Scoop: What we really need is more prisons and tougher sentances.

How ironic. In comparisons between the US and UK, I'm always hearing the Brits criticize the US for having such a high percentage of their population in prison. And now you want to do the same...

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Skyrad: Guns are very easy to get illegally.

More irony. Many Brits here are fully in favor of the gun ban, which deprived law-abiding citizens of guns, and does nothing to stop the criminals from getting them.

My 2 cents worth:
Political correctness will be the death of us all. People have got to grow the balls to just say "no more!".

[Skyrad 0]

The BNP is a political party and the Skinhead movement may be big in the US but hasn't been in the UK since the 70's also not all skinheads are racists. Far right nationalist gangs are not as prevelant over here as you seem to think.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Thats because many Brits experience of firearms is limited to watching Lethal Weapon. I grew up with and around firearms have used them all my life and continue to do so on a regular basis.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Butters 0]

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The BNP is a political party ...

... with members that identify with the Nazi Party.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Richards 0]

Until the courts/government/police are all on the same page and working together to catch these thugs and put them away for a very long time we can expect more of the same and worse. Don't ask me how we can get them to do that.

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[1969912 0]

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Thats because many Brits experience of firearms is limited to watching Lethal Weapon. I grew up with and around firearms have used them all my life and continue to do so on a regular basis.

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Guns are very easy to get illegally. Getting a legal one is a real task.

I took your comment as a bit of a slam against gun control.



Is that what you meant?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

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The BNP is a political party and the Skinhead movement may be big in the US but hasn't been in the UK since the 70's also not all skinheads are racists. Far right nationalist gangs are not as prevelant over here as you seem to think.

Skinhead/racists are NOT big here.

AFAIK, England does not have a reputation for containing Far-right nationalist gangs.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[bexren76 0]

I am not going to try and address all the different points you have raised because they seek to over simplify what I was trying to say and have effectively made my point for me.

If you believe that the way to deal with this problem is to do as Labour have done - bash those on the front line and go for the reactionary headline approach to complex issues in our society then so be it.

I would sooner be a bleeding heart lefty with a grasp of the wider picture than a right wing blunt instrument.

[Richards 0]

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I would sooner be a bleeding heart lefty with a grasp of the wider picture than a right wing blunt instrument.

[bexren76 0]

It means that if Popsjumper had taken the trouble to properly read my original post he might have realised I was saying that the problems raised in Skyrad's original post are very complex and I was citing an example of one of the facets of the siuation. Then he might not have just excitedly jumped all over the example. If it assists I wholeheartedly agree with mr2mk1g's post re: sentencing. My point was that the problems we face can't be solved with a blunt instrument approach to criminal justice because crime is often (not always) a symptom of problems in society and we can't fix society without fixing those causes. On the other hand, let's just bring back capital and corporal punishment, lock up anyone that breaks any law and throw away the key.Can we fix it? Yes we can.......