Don't blame guns or the US, UK society is to blame.

[Remster 30]

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Can we fix it? Yes we can.......

Bob for PM!

Remster

[Richards 0]

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It means that if Popsjumper had taken the trouble to properly read my original post he might have realised I was saying that the problems raised in Skyrad's original post are very complex and I was citing an example of one of the facets of the siuation. Then he might not have just excitedly jumped all over the example. If it assists I wholeheartedly agree with mr2mk1g's post re: sentencing. My point was that the problems we face can't be solved with a blunt instrument approach to criminal justice because crime is often (not always) a symptom of problems in society and we can't fix society without fixing those causes. On the other hand, let's just bring back capital and corporal punishment, lock up anyone that breaks any law and throw away the key.Can we fix it? Yes we can.......

Fair enough. I am no criminologist so my following opinion is just that...an opinion. On the left we have the "root cause, intervention thereapy" approach, and on the right we have the "hang-em high, throw away the key" approach. My humble opinion is that you actually need both.

Usually if a left leaning government comes in they pour money into community centresand other intervention stuff but give slap on the wrist sentences. As a result the ones that can easily be saved will be, but the harder tougher ones have no incentive to seek out help, and no disincentive to avoid criminal behaviour since the benefits of being a criminal outweigh the costs.

When a righty gets in he brings in heavy sentences but does away with spending on intervention programs for at risk youth. Thus even though the bad guys are afraid of the new law there is nothing to direct youth in the right direction.

This is where I think that all the intervention approaches used by the left, combined with a heavy handed justice system would be more effective. I realise there are many complications I have not considered, but just once it would be nice to see a two pronged approach by someone instead of one of the two extremes. I still beleive that criminals should fear the law considerably, but there is nothing wrong with spending on programs that help at risk youth recognise the importance of respecting the law.

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[kelpdiver 2]

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It means that if Popsjumper had taken the trouble to properly read my original post he might have realised I was saying that the problems raised in Skyrad's original post are very complex and I was citing an example of one of the facets of the siuation. Then he might not have just excitedly jumped all over the example. If it assists I wholeheartedly agree with mr2mk1g's post re: sentencing. My point was that the problems we face can't be solved with a blunt instrument approach to criminal justice because crime is often (not always) a symptom of problems in society and we can't fix society without fixing those causes. On the other hand, let's just bring back capital and corporal punishment, lock up anyone that breaks any law and throw away the key.Can we fix it? Yes we can.......

The perception on our side of the ocean is that citizens who take the law (of force) into their own hands are punished more severely than the criminals. Yet if they instead just let it happen and wait for the cops and courts to effect punishment, it doesn't happen.

Is that accurate, or an incomplete view from 7000 miles away?

If it's not easy to fix the problems on the criminal justice angle, how about giving the people more rights to protect themselves?

[mnealtx 0]

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It means that if Popsjumper had taken the trouble to properly read my original post he might have realised I was saying that the problems raised in Skyrad's original post are very complex and I was citing an example of one of the facets of the siuation. Then he might not have just excitedly jumped all over the example. If it assists I wholeheartedly agree with mr2mk1g's post re: sentencing. My point was that the problems we face can't be solved with a blunt instrument approach to criminal justice because crime is often (not always) a symptom of problems in society and we can't fix society without fixing those causes. On the other hand, let's just bring back capital and corporal punishment, lock up anyone that breaks any law and throw away the key.Can we fix it? Yes we can.......

Actually, Popsjumper answered you well - a VERY large part today's problem (I believe) is the loss of personal responsibility and a personal sense of honor.

As he said - when you tell them it's not THEIR fault they're scumbags, it's SOCIETY's fault... THAT is (one of) the problems.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Skyrad 0]

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The BNP is a political party ...

... with members that identify with the Nazi Party.

True. I'm no appologist for the BNP, however it would be misleading (and dangerous) to make out that they are a street gang. Alot of their support is from working class families disenchanted with the lack of middle right political parties in the part of the spectrum that the Conservative party once held. To say that all their voters are Nazi's would simply be incorrect.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Thats because many Brits experience of firearms is limited to watching Lethal Weapon. I grew up with and around firearms have used them all my life and continue to do so on a regular basis.

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Guns are very easy to get illegally. Getting a legal one is a real task.

I took your comment as a bit of a slam against gun control.



Is that what you meant?

Not entirely. I don't think that guns should be as easy to buy as frying pans but I do feel that the process of purchasing a firearm for legal use in this country is bording on being overly rigorous. Also I'd like to see the return of legal handguns. I don't feel that the country is yet at the point where concealed carry should be permitted outside of the forces or Police.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

I agree with you Richards although I'd replace heavy handed with firm handed.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

I don't think thats just a view from 7000 miles away, i'd say it is a view that is widly held here in the Uk as well. As for how acurate it is? I think it varies on a case by case basis but from my window its pretty acurate.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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You're right. The trouble is that freedom for the judges will never be restored until there is sufficient space to house the criminals.

I've got people I deal with who have been arrested 30 odd times and never been inside

i'd like to see our prison system move closer to the Sweedish model which has one of the lowest reoffending rates in the world rather the the US's where people are locked up in ever growing numbers and the prison unions are now so strong the influence politics. I belive the aim of prison should be not only to punish but ALSO to rehabilitate.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Try to find others who feel the same way, then get together and brainstorm.

what's it like in Ireland? Have they gone to shit as well?

In the Republic of Ireland there is a massive problem with gangs in Limerick and Dublin this has been made worse by the arrival of massive numbers of eastern europeans (100,000 in Dublin alone) the gangs fight for control of the drugs trade. Outside of these two cities its not to bad. A strong sense of community and a wider influence of the church definately along with a rise in prosperity with the Celtic tiger economy seem to have kept a lid on the problem. However, the problem is getting worse and I belive as the economy suffers and the people start moving further from home to find work the problem will increase.
In Northern Ireland the gang problem was kept in tight check by the Paramilitarys on both sides of the community for decades. People who would have been drawn towards gang membership generally were drawn into paramilitary groups. Now however with the troubles generally over and the weapons supposedly being put beyond use the paramilitarys are not what they once were. Youth crime while not the same in general as it is in the rest of the Uk is on the rise. In poorer communities suicide amoungest the young is also the highest of anywhere in Europe.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[bexren76 0]

Yes except that isn't what I said. What I actually was saying was what Richard has said quite well. While we need to address the punishment and sentencing side of things if we don't address the root causes (one of which is deprivation of all kinds for example) as well we can't fix the problem. You wouldn't try and deal with a cancerous tumour just by scraping the top off now would you coz the bugger would grow back.

Contrary to what some seem to believe, it is possible to be a lefty, see both sides of a problem and realise that to solve it you have to come at it from both sides. Can't speak for the righties.......

[mnealtx 0]

>>>the deep roots of crime in the community, such as severe deprivation of all kinds.

>>> as soon as you find out their background you know never stood a chance to start with

>>> you know they are very unlikely ever to be useful

That may not have been what you MEANT, but it is what you *said*... saying it's society's fault that they are how they are, not their own. Making sure the communication is clear is the responsibility of the writer, not the reader.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[1969912 0]

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Thats because many Brits experience of firearms is limited to watching Lethal Weapon. I grew up with and around firearms have used them all my life and continue to do so on a regular basis.

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Guns are very easy to get illegally. Getting a legal one is a real task.

I took your comment as a bit of a slam against gun control.



Is that what you meant?

Not entirely. I don't think that guns should be as easy to buy as frying pans but I do feel that the process of purchasing a firearm for legal use in this country is bording on being overly rigorous. Also I'd like to see the return of legal handguns. I don't feel that the country is yet at the point where concealed carry should be permitted outside of the forces or Police.

I used poor wording with "slam", and understand your position. What was interesting was that you noted at the same time that that guns were easily obtainable through illegal means. That is the same condition that we experience in the US when a weapon is either banned or restricted. The ban or restriction really only applies to the law-abiding.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

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Try to find others who feel the same way, then get together and brainstorm.

what's it like in Ireland? Have they gone to shit as well?

In the Republic of Ireland there is a massive problem with gangs in Limerick and Dublin this has been made worse by the arrival of massive numbers of eastern europeans (100,000 in Dublin alone) the gangs fight for control of the drugs trade. Outside of these two cities its not to bad. A strong sense of community and a wider influence of the church definately along with a rise in prosperity with the Celtic tiger economy seem to have kept a lid on the problem. However, the problem is getting worse and I belive as the economy suffers and the people start moving further from home to find work the problem will increase.
In Northern Ireland the gang problem was kept in tight check by the Paramilitarys on both sides of the community for decades. People who would have been drawn towards gang membership generally were drawn into paramilitary groups. Now however with the troubles generally over and the weapons supposedly being put beyond use the paramilitarys are not what they once were. Youth crime while not the same in general as it is in the rest of the Uk is on the rise. In poorer communities suicide amoungest the young is also the highest of anywhere in Europe.

Interesting. Is the Celtic Tiger the computer/tech boom that started 10 or so years ago? My times might be off, but I can remember thinking "about time, good for them" when I read about it. Even considered trying for a job there.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Skyrad 0]

Its a good place to live but the economy has slid a bit and things aren't as good in the republic as they were. As for NI what we're now seeing is a bit of a fight between the Paramilitarys and the street gangs which are worse in areas such as the Ardoyne, Ballymurphy and Shankill. See below for a better idea.

This was an attempted hijacking at gunpoint on the Falls road in Belfast a few weeks ago by a street gang called the Ballymurphy rat pack. Some local 'Boys' interveaned luckly for the Spide hijacker his scumbag mates were around or he'd most likely got drilled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_alPnTgao8

The problem...

Falls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJZgvgkPyQU&mode=related&search=
(The building in the background is a hospital!)


Shankill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2YsTC4jD-U&NR=1

Fuck the ra (ra =IRA)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLnd2pV9kGU&mode=related&search=

The traditional response...



Justice Belfast style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1lofh_s9cs&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjqyDvSn2XA&mode=related&search=

Hope for the future

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3qXbeW_pxk&mode=related&search=

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[1969912 0]

skyrad,

Thanks for the info. Irish gangsters dress well. The guys in the hijack clip looked like college students or something.

They do that joyriding stuff here too.

I think that a good predictor of criminality in male youth is lack of a father at home. In the inner cities it's very common.


Here is a clip that talks about kids getting sucked into hispanic gangs, and how the gangs evolved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uso4xZp_H3g


Non-gang: Typical Sunday afternoon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuv0dplp8GM


This is a gangster who must hold the world record for speed-burglary. He probably does $15,000 damage in 3 minutes. This fine gentleman might be on drugs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94h6XTJaNEA

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Skyrad 0]

1st Vid: Interesting, I agree that social alienation and lack of a father figure raise the likelyhood of attraction to gang membership. Along with a lack of respect for oneself and others.

2nd Vid: Full auto

3 Vid: Like to see do that and get caught in the lower Falls.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Butters 0]

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The BNP is a political party ...

... with members that identify with the Nazi Party.

True. I'm no appologist for the BNP, however it would be misleading (and dangerous) to make out that they are a street gang. Alot of their support is from working class families disenchanted with the lack of middle right political parties in the part of the spectrum that the Conservative party once held. To say that all their voters are Nazi's would simply be incorrect.

I never stated it was a street gang ... just that people should beware. There were many disenchanted working class families in Germany during the Nazi uprising ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Skyrad 0]

I agree with you about the potential danger of the BNP. It wasn't you who proposed them as a street gang.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[bexren76 0]

I did not say that it is the fault of society that they are the way they are. What I said was that society as a whole was going to have to work together to fix the problems from all the diffenet angles (including the ones we might rather not face)or they would not get fixed. The examples in my original post were examples of some of the things that go wrong and contribute to the general mess. Crikey. It's not rocket science, or leftism, just common sense. Has it left the building?

[mnealtx 0]

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Crikey. It's not rocket science, or leftism, just common sense. Has it left the building?

With your further statements, your post makes sense. Your initial words taken by themselves did make it sound like it was society's fault that those individuals went to a life of crime.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[bexren76 0]

For the cheap seats.........

"Looking at how we tackle crime ALONE is not enough. There has to be a willingness to address the deep roots of crime in the community, SUCH AS severe deprivation of all kinds. I would NEVER advocate fluffiness WITHOUT punishment ......."

Never had to quote myself before - kinda funky. However, now sick of the sound of my own voice and no doubt everyone else is too. Cheery bye!

[Scoop 0]

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I think that a good predictor of criminality in male youth is lack of a father at home. In the inner cities it's very common.

Whilst I know this is a generalisation I have to argue it. I grew up without a father on a housing estate with no immediate male role model. I didn't get involved in a world of crime. Quite the contrary. I work for the police. Ironically if my Dad had remained at home I probably would have been a scumbag like him

[1969912 0]

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I think that a good predictor of criminality in male youth is lack of a father at home. In the inner cities it's very common.

Whilst I know this is a generalisation I have to argue it. I grew up without a father on a housing estate with no immediate male role model. I didn't get involved in a world of crime. Quite the contrary. I work for the police. Ironically if my Dad had remained at home I probably would have been a scumbag like him

Certainly there are many cases with a good outcome, and having no dad at home is better than having an evil, abusive one at home.

"Predictor" was a poor choice of word on my part, but children from fatherless homes are over-represented when examining youth criminality. Fatherlessness may not be causal, but it is a characteristic shared by many (~80%) youth criminals.

Something that may be skewing the data is the fact that a certain cultural subset in the US has a disproportionately large amount of youth criminality, as well as a disproportionately high level of fatherlessness. In that cultural subset, the missing fathers are, IMHO, often violent, abusive criminals themselves. If the fathers remained with the families, I really doubt the kids would turn out better.

Some statistics:

http://burlington.craigslist.org/grp/392490674.html


http://www.photius.com/feminocracy/facts_on_fatherless_kids.html

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG