Zenister 0
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sv3n 0
QuoteGood Post.. and I agree on many points, but facts are he broke the law.
My issue is with how big a deal the media and the public are making out of this...there are far worse criminals in nearly every major sport and yet their cases have never gotten this level of attention...
a perfect illustration of how ignorant the 'masses' can be when manipulated by sensationalist media forces..
we live in a country struck by "out of sight out of mind" syndrom.................you don't see the homeless people there's no problem, you don't see people dying because they don't have healthcare then there's no problem. But once there's a public eyes raised to those issues, then everybody is outraged.
People are stuck in their 9-5ers, then have 3-4 hours to get home eat n relax til it's bed time......then they do that five to six days out of the week......then comes the payoff, 1 or 2 days of relax time. Your average people will spend that time catching up on chores, doing things with their family and/or friends, and relaxing rather than campaigning for some cause or researching the world's problems. But when those sad images get thrown in their face during relax time then it's hard to relax.....people get outraged.
As far as Vick goes..........he broke the law repeatedly and tried to lie about it. he also agreed to stay out of trouble for his team as part of his contract.
...and you're in violation of your face!
wmw999 2,457
Sorry -- it wasn't directed at you, but just using yours as a stepping stone.
Wendy W.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
pirana 0
Replying to the last post only because the owners of this site have yet to develop a quick post option and it really ticks me off that I have to page back to the OP.
My only comment on the OP is that using that whole "it's my culture" or "I'm a product of my environment" logic would allow anybody to do anything and lay the blame on society, or their parents, or their priest, or their teachers, or ?????
Come on DZ.com, get with the modern era and put a quick reply button at the bottom of the page so we don't have to reply to the last (and possibly irrelevant) post or page back to the beginning.
My only comment on the OP is that using that whole "it's my culture" or "I'm a product of my environment" logic would allow anybody to do anything and lay the blame on society, or their parents, or their priest, or their teachers, or ?????
Come on DZ.com, get with the modern era and put a quick reply button at the bottom of the page so we don't have to reply to the last (and possibly irrelevant) post or page back to the beginning.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
pirana 0
How about DUI? There are many areas in this country where drinking and driving is still seen as normal and acceptable. How about the rednecks that bound and murdered that gay dude out west? They are just products of their environment.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
Zipp0 1
QuoteWhy is it a FELONY to kill a Pit Bull and totally accptable to go blow the head off a rabbit, deer, dove or any other animal?
A pit bull is a domestic pet. When you go hunting, most do it for sport, as well as food. When I got my buck a few years ago, I didn't make it fight another buck to the death for my own amusement and then torture the loser to death for not winning. I dispatched the buck as quickly and cleanly as possible. I train long and hard to be a good shot, so as not to cause undue suffering. When I do kill an animal, I eat it or share the meat.
What Michael Vick did was to cause suffering for his own pleasure, In order to maximize the pleasure they tortured and killed the weaker dogs so that only the strongest would fight, and the fights would be spectacular.
And if this is someone's culture, well then their culture is fucking shit, and I have no respect for shit.
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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.
Darius11 12
I love dogs I love all animals most of them I get along with better then people.
I agree with you it is our ignorance and arrogance. Don’t forget we even try to force our “way of life” on others who clearly don’t want it. I am not surprised at this.
We are isolated from other major borders and we are the only real super power so we assume our way is the correct way. It’s funny when I read some of the replays to you on this thread it is obvious how some tend to just not get it. They let their love of dog’s take over there logic. That happens to most people when dealing with an issue that is emotional to them.
You are right. In some cultures like Iran Dogs are viewed as a working animals. They are used as guard dogs. They are not allowed inside the home, or at the dinner table they are viewed as dirty animals. Not dirty as in a bad animal but dirty in the factual sense of the word.
They’re our cultures where dogs are viewed as food.
Most Americans have no clue about what is considered rude or polite in other cultures they simply never had to learn. That’s fine what is not ok is when we try to force our views on others.
We kill Cattle, Chicken, Pigs (that are claimed to be as smart as dogs), and we hunt for fun.
There is one thing I have an issue with if it is true (our media is very bias and is more entertainment then news) that he tortured the animals then he did brake the law and deserves punishment in my opinion. Any respectful hunter and I know many take pride in making sure the animal does not suffer. They make sure the animal has a quick death. I respect that. If I saw someone torturing a dog I can’t care about his culture it is simple morality and would have to do something about it. If I saw a hunter who tied a deer to a tree and tortured it for no reason I would not be able to deal with that and most likely end up in jail.
If the majority of African Americans believe dog fighting is their culture they should work on setting standards and making it legal.
Did he brake the law? Yes
Is there a huge overreaction fueled by the media and our personal cultural view? Yes
Will he be punished unjustly for his crimes? Yes he will he already has lost millions for killing dogs.
I agree with you it is our ignorance and arrogance. Don’t forget we even try to force our “way of life” on others who clearly don’t want it. I am not surprised at this.
We are isolated from other major borders and we are the only real super power so we assume our way is the correct way. It’s funny when I read some of the replays to you on this thread it is obvious how some tend to just not get it. They let their love of dog’s take over there logic. That happens to most people when dealing with an issue that is emotional to them.
You are right. In some cultures like Iran Dogs are viewed as a working animals. They are used as guard dogs. They are not allowed inside the home, or at the dinner table they are viewed as dirty animals. Not dirty as in a bad animal but dirty in the factual sense of the word.
They’re our cultures where dogs are viewed as food.
Most Americans have no clue about what is considered rude or polite in other cultures they simply never had to learn. That’s fine what is not ok is when we try to force our views on others.
We kill Cattle, Chicken, Pigs (that are claimed to be as smart as dogs), and we hunt for fun.
There is one thing I have an issue with if it is true (our media is very bias and is more entertainment then news) that he tortured the animals then he did brake the law and deserves punishment in my opinion. Any respectful hunter and I know many take pride in making sure the animal does not suffer. They make sure the animal has a quick death. I respect that. If I saw someone torturing a dog I can’t care about his culture it is simple morality and would have to do something about it. If I saw a hunter who tied a deer to a tree and tortured it for no reason I would not be able to deal with that and most likely end up in jail.
If the majority of African Americans believe dog fighting is their culture they should work on setting standards and making it legal.
Did he brake the law? Yes
Is there a huge overreaction fueled by the media and our personal cultural view? Yes
Will he be punished unjustly for his crimes? Yes he will he already has lost millions for killing dogs.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
sv3n 0
QuoteDid he brake the law? Yes
Is there a huge overreaction fueled by the media and our personal cultural view? Yes
Will he be punished unjustly for his crimes? Yes he will he already has lost millions for killing dogs.
So we're in agreement that he broke the law.
The culture thing I could care less about.......the fact is he broke the law and needs to pay the price therefore, I don't care if he's black, blue, white, yellow, red, or some off shade of purple. He broke the law that's that.
As far as the media, he chose to be a pro-athelete......if he didn't want to be stuck in the spotlight or the media, he should've chose another profession.
As for him being punished in an unjust manner and losing millions...........this is where we part ways. As part of his contract and bonus agreement he was to represent the team in a positive manner. His actions obviously did not represent the team in a positive manner. So who's at fault for him losing millions and being treated the way he is. It's his fault, nobody else's..........he made the choice to go down that road, nobody else. He also chose to sign a contract with the team saying that he was supposed to represent the team in a positive manner.....nobody made him sign it. He broke the agreement, he started breeding dogs for illegal activites, he killed dogs for amusement.............it's his own stupid fault. It has nothing to do with race or culture. He tried to cover up his involvement, so he obviously knew it was wrong. Those were his choices.
"I'm sorry officer, I know I was speeding...but I'm german and it's part of my culture to drive fast because we have the autobahn".............try that sometime and see where it gets you.
...and you're in violation of your face!
Darius11 12
I think it also has to do with culture and the way Americans view dogs as almost and in some cases more then humane.
He broke the law but if he had killed a Piping Plover he would pay a fine and no one would hear about it, but because it is dogs and most Americans put a very high value on dogs he will be crucified.
I am not arguing about the law as it is written and there is no need for an argument. However I can understand how many times the Law and our justice system does not enforce justice. We also have many cases of hypocrisy, and a lynch mob mentality.
He broke the law but if he had killed a Piping Plover he would pay a fine and no one would hear about it, but because it is dogs and most Americans put a very high value on dogs he will be crucified.
I am not arguing about the law as it is written and there is no need for an argument. However I can understand how many times the Law and our justice system does not enforce justice. We also have many cases of hypocrisy, and a lynch mob mentality.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
Royd 0
I now officially revise my position on dog fighting. It must be a good thing because it just helped Michael Vick find Jesus. Evangelistic dog fighting, anyone?
QuoteWhy is it a FELONY to kill a Pit Bull and totally accptable to go blow the head off a rabbit, deer, dove or any other animal?
Are you at all aware of the way he killed these pit bulls. They weren't mercy killings, and he wasn't "hunting" for food.
QuoteIn his culture, dog fighting is not taboo. In his mind, based on his culture, he did nothing wrong.
I though Vick was American. I'm American and dog fighting is not part of my culture.
j
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
Zipp0 1
QuoteQuoteWhy is it a FELONY to kill a Pit Bull and totally accptable to go blow the head off a rabbit, deer, dove or any other animal?
Are you at all aware of the way he killed these pit bulls. They weren't mercy killings, and he was "hunting" for food.QuoteIn his culture, dog fighting is not taboo. In his mind, based on his culture, he did nothing wrong.
I though Vick was American. I'm American and dog fighting is not part of my culture.
j
Well, technically I think it would be a 'sub-culture'. It's like with the Italian-Americans. John Gotti didn't really WANT to have people whacked - It was just a part of his culture. I mean, considering that, can you blame the guy?
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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.
QuoteIt also identifies a lack of leadership in the Falcons. I mean, if I was the owner, I would have realized how dangerous all that money would be in a young mans pocket and insisted on some oversight.
Any young man would be dangerous with all that money.
OMG I can't belive you are trying to blame Falcon's owner.
Its called responsiblity. Vick chose not to be responsible. It was all his doing, not the Falcon's owner.
j
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
tkhayes 348
QuoteHow about DUI? There are many areas in this country where drinking and driving is still seen as normal and acceptable. How about the rednecks that bound and murdered that gay dude out west? They are just products of their environment.
no they are NOT part of their 'environment' - they are murdering fucks - unacceptable by ANY standard in ANY part of this country.
And I am equally sure that the 'other normal folks' that grew up in the same 'environment' as them 'out west' would surely disagree with you as well.
TK
QuoteIn his culture, dog fighting is not taboo. In his mind, based on his culture, he did nothing wrong.
Yeah... and his brother has been accused of pimping out his underage girlfriend. Is that a "cultural" thing, too?
QuoteThe great majority of us do not have the intelligence, knowledge or courage to develop our own beliefs, religion, morals or culture. We are sheep.
I reckon I should be the one to point this out - do you realize that you are pinting yourself as a messiah with this statement? This statement suggests that you think you know what nobody else knows because we are all stupid, uneducated pussies.
You are telling ME and everyone ELSE on here that we lack the intelligence to work out our own values?
That we are villifying Vick because we are ignorant and uneducated?
That WE lack the courage to see things your way?
QuoteVery few Americans understand or even care to acknowledge the poor, Southern African American culture that exists in this country. This is a culture very different from any other culture in America. I do not claim to understand it but I acknowledge my ignorance.
The issue is that certain elements of the culture do not mesh well with SOCIETY.
SOCIETY has decided what is appropriate and what is not. SOCIETY has determined that there is MUCH of the culture that is okay. As a SOCIETY, we have made the determination that we are not to be cruel to dogs. Whether it's the poor black guy's pit bull fighting the poor white racist's Presa Canario, society has deemed that it is wrong.
There is a dogfighting culture. I don't care to understand it. It is wrong. I do not condone it. It is sadistic and cruel.
I have balls enough to say that I formed these opinions on my own. I have enough intelligence to have carefully formulated the opinion that Michael Vick is being fairly portrayed as a sadistic motherfucker.
QuoteMainstream culture has embraced many instances of animal cruelty as sport and entertainment. If another culture has decided to torture an animal your culture deems sacred, don’t judge.
BULLSHIT! WE DO JUDGE! In fact, YOU are JUDGING the CULTURE that JUDGES!
Do you have the education or the courage to figure out that you are chastising a culture for chastising a culture? Does it not occur to you that you are "judging" the culture that is "judging?"
The only thing that must be admitted is that you are fine with judging cultures and societies. You are fine with cultures and societies judging other cultures and societies. You have proven it.
Which fits in with the messianic nature of your post. You are suggesting that YOURS is the only proper way. You have judged the American society to be judgmental. You hjave indicated that your view is the only appropriate view. "Dog fighting? How dare you pass judgment. I therefore pass judgment on you."
Not that there is anything morally wrong with passing judgment. It's fine. It's that that there is a logical problem with passing judgment on those who pass judgment. See what I mean?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
QuoteAgreed 100%...But I think the price is astronomically too high. It also identifies a lack of leadership in the Falcons. I mean, if I was the owner, I would have realized how dangerous all that money would be in a young mans pocket and insisted on some oversight.
Any young man would be dangerous with all that money.
I call BS. Look at LT from the Chargers. Look at all that this man is doing to help his community and society. http://ladainiantomlinson.com/found.htm It's about being a f-ing decent human being and accountable for your actions. What ever happened to personal responsibility. I'm sick and tired of this whole 'it's not his/her fault' culture we are creating.
QuoteIn his culture, dog fighting is not taboo. In his mind, based on his culture, he did nothing wrong.
That has to be one of the most insulting statements I have ever read. Since when is dog fighting part of Black culture or history.
QuoteAnd, that culture already has no respect for our government or laws so the illegality issue was moot.
So then Blacks are just a bunch of crazed, lawless lunatics. WOW.
This is a human being that willfully and intentionally raised a sentient being for the express purpose of torturing and killing that being, and deriving pleasure from the agony of that killing. I don't care what culture, race, creed or shoe size you are, if you think that intentional torture and abuse are acceptable as a source of pleasure, then you deserve the same fate as your victims. I have to accept that bullfighting is legal, but if a matador was gored in front of me, the only reason I would look down would be to not get blood on my shoes. If the acceptance of how much torture and agony a animal should suffer for someone's personal pleasure is based on IQ and awareness, then is it ok to beat a person in a vegetative state or brain damaged to death?
This has nothing to do with how animals are killed or treated as a food source, or hunting. In the example of the beheading of doves, were the doves shot poorly so the hunter could experience the pleasure of pulling its head off? Or was it the fastest means of putting it out of its misery? I personally, do not hunt any more, but I understand that the vast majority of hunters do try to do it as humanely as possible, and any hunter who intentionally wounds an animal for the sake of watching it suffer qualifies for what I stated above. And yes, there are poor hunters out there that have no business holding a weapon. But that is another topic.
Chickens may suffer greatly as they are processed for food, but that process was not designed for the express purpose of torturing chickens. And yes, the process needs to be improved. So, while I cannot condemn a person that works on the process line in a chicken factory (assuming they are doing their job in an efficient manner) I would put someone involved in cock fighting right up there with the matador.
Deliberate torture and intentional cruelty towards another animal for the sole purpose of garnering pleasure from that animals agony and death is wrong, period. But that is just my opinion. Please raise your hand if you disagree.
This has nothing to do with how animals are killed or treated as a food source, or hunting. In the example of the beheading of doves, were the doves shot poorly so the hunter could experience the pleasure of pulling its head off? Or was it the fastest means of putting it out of its misery? I personally, do not hunt any more, but I understand that the vast majority of hunters do try to do it as humanely as possible, and any hunter who intentionally wounds an animal for the sake of watching it suffer qualifies for what I stated above. And yes, there are poor hunters out there that have no business holding a weapon. But that is another topic.
Chickens may suffer greatly as they are processed for food, but that process was not designed for the express purpose of torturing chickens. And yes, the process needs to be improved. So, while I cannot condemn a person that works on the process line in a chicken factory (assuming they are doing their job in an efficient manner) I would put someone involved in cock fighting right up there with the matador.
Deliberate torture and intentional cruelty towards another animal for the sole purpose of garnering pleasure from that animals agony and death is wrong, period. But that is just my opinion. Please raise your hand if you disagree.
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Darius11 12
QuoteThis statement suggests that you think you know what nobody else knows because we are all stupid, uneducated pussies.
You are telling ME and everyone ELSE on here that we lack the intelligence to work out our own values?
That we are villifying Vick because we are ignorant and uneducated?
That WE lack the courage to see things your way?
Sorry to point this out to you but most are that stupid. Maybe not on here but I’ll let you answer your self.
In a recent pole what percentage of Americans thought that Sadam Hussein was responsible for 9-11?
What percentage doesn’t know where Iraq or Afghanistan is on the map?
I think we lack courage or understanding to see any thing other then what we are used too.
Are all Americans like this no they are not? Many are well traveled and educated, But when it comes to understanding other cultures that are different then our own or world affaires we are as dumb as it gets. Once again because we have never had the need to learn. It should be no surprise that our public standard for math and science is below some countries that we consider 3rd world.
Sorry I know the truth hurts.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
tkhayes 348
http://www.hsus.org/acf/news/vote_video_contest.htm
bet you can't keep a dry eye watching these videos....
TK
bet you can't keep a dry eye watching these videos....
TK
Quotehttp://www.hsus.org/acf/news/vote_video_contest.htm
bet you can't keep a dry eye watching these videos....
TK
I don't have much trouble watching things of a disturbing nature, but still don't have the balls to watch one of those.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
If people were less stupid I would be out of work.
But, there are a lot of generalizations. I can point out where Iran and Iraq and Afghanistan are on a map. Even though I've been to Wisconsin, I wouldn't be able to say where Sheboygan is. I live in Fresno County and have for four years, and I'll be damned if I know where the cities of Biola or Raisin City are.
The reason is because I have not had cause to know. There's no reason to have to know it. If somethign brings me to Raisin City, then I'll know where it is, how to get there and probably tell you a couple of fun factoids. But I have not had reason or desire to figure it out.
I happened to know little of Persian culture until law school, when I befriended some persians. I know now what makes a good ground beef kebab, basmati rice, and Persian weddings are an absolute BLAST! Had I not found myself in that situation of being very good friends with two of them I would not know this. You cannot just seek it out.
How many people here know the elements of a negligence lawsuit? Very few, even though "negligence" lawsuits are things that everyone has a comment on. Why SHOULD they know? They hire attorneys who know this stuff - even though "negligence" has been defined for hundreds of years!
How many Americans could pass the citizenship exam? Probably a frighteningly low number - because most Americans do not need to study for the test.
It's not a matter of any deliberate ignorance. It's a matter of most of us simply being busy with other things. You said it right - we have had no need to learn.
But that does not mean that we cannot react with indignation to those things that are abhorrent to our cuturla ethos. Indeed, that is part of the culture, and each culture has those issues.
It's just a fact of life. Not only do we lack understanding of every culture (including our own) but no culture can be expected to fully understand itself or other cultures.
It is ignorance because we do not all have the interet or the time to learn these things.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Does that mean any other culture that received a raw deal along the way should be free to do as they want without regards to the law? This isn't a perfect country and that list is very long. It would be anachary if you said "well, he had a rough childhood, he isn't responsible for his adult actions."QuoteNow, to address Michael Vick and his situation. Very few Americans understand or even care to acknowledge the poor, Southern African American culture that exists in this country. This is a culture very different from any other culture in America. I do not claim to understand it but I acknowledge my ignorance.
Um, there may be many people that are racist banging the drums on this one, but he broke the law. In addition to that, he is a celebrity and this world is obsessed with watching the mighty fall in front of live TV. Do you feel the villification of Britney Spears poor parenting is racist as well? Of course not, but its in the same vein......"if it bleeds, it leads." In other words, the media will crucify anyone in the hopes of raising ratings to make more money. That's all this comes down to.Quote
I hate to admit this, but the vilification of Michael Vick is racism.
My personal reaction to this? I think he was pretty dumb for what he did - how did he think he wouldn't get caught with his fame? After that I didn't care much about it and changed the news channel. I think most American's who have their own life to care about have put that much thought into it.
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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
My issue is with how big a deal the media and the public are making out of this...there are far worse criminals in nearly every major sport and yet their cases have never gotten this level of attention...
a perfect illustration of how ignorant the 'masses' can be when manipulated by sensationalist media forces..
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
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