"Your Papers, Please", Ohio Man Arrested for Refusing to Show Receipt at Circuit City

[willard 0]

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Wow a lot of people are will to give up their rights to a frigin retail store. Once a transaction is completed they can not stop you from there to see your receipt (They can for Storys that you sign for a member ship as that is part of the agreement you sign for)

You can only be detained if they have witnessed you committing the act of theft. Walking out of the store and refusing to show your receipt is well with in your rights. As for the police in Ohio http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.29

No person who is in a public place shall refuse to disclose the person’s name, address, or date of birth, when requested by a law enforcement officer who reasonably suspects either of the following:

(C) Nothing in this section requires a person to answer any questions beyond that person’s name, address, or date of birth. Nothing in this section authorizes a law enforcement officer to arrest a person for not providing any information beyond that person’s name, address, or date of birth or for refusing to describe the offense observed.
Effective Date: 04-14-2006
Sure it’s easier to just roll over and give up right out of convince , other feel different about this and exercise their legal rights to refuse to show a receipt turned in to a major rights violation by the police!!! He was a passenger and they had no authority to ask for a drives license as he was not the operator of the vehicle!!! Hr complied in identifying him self.

Why are people looked at as being a jerk or asshole just because they refuse to roll over and take the easy route even though it violates their personal rights?

Are you a lawer? Neither am I. That's why I said earlier that whether the kid broke any laws and whether he has a case against CC is for the legal folk to decide. You can show revised codes all day long, but it is how those are applied that counts. I don't know, and i'm sure you don't know, whether or not there are other sections of the code that apply in this case.

[Zipp0 1]

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I don't have a problem with private businesses requiring presentation of a receipt. Not only is it douns business practice, it is also not a Constitutional issue because it is a private business.

A search of your person is a constitutional issue, IMO. Once you pay, those items are your posessions, and any search is a violation of your rights.

Here is an example of why this is a bad idea. Should I have to show a receipt for the sunglasses I wore into the store if it is a brand/model they sell? But Mr. Cleark, I bought these a week ago, I have no receipt! Well, I guess you stole them then?

Sorry no. Unless you see me stealing, fuck off.

I'm not a lawer but I am smart enough to know that they don't HAVE to see you stealing or catch it on camera to get a conviction.
"This surge protector? The one in my bag, with your store label? The one I have no receipt for while walking from the register to the door? Yeah, it's mine. I brought it in with me."
Sure you did. Hell, maybe you really did! But I doubt any cop or judge is going to buy your claim.
Sunglasses? I've been asked about mine several times, each time at the store i bought them and by a different cashier. I just tell them I bought them several weeks ago and they are happy with that. It's amazing what a civil response to a question can do to keep a situation from escalating vs a smartass reply.

Luckily, in America, it's up to a jury, not a cop or judge. Odds are, a jury will wonder why the cameras (there are about 100 or more in your average WalMart) did not see you steal a thing, nor have you ever stole anything or committed any crime in your entire life.

And by the way, when they call the cops about your sunglasses, for which you have no receipt, your opinion on the issue will likely change.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Zipp0 1]

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Lucky for them that beeper thing hasn't gone off on me yet. Or if it has I didn't notice because I have more important shit to do than stand around proving that I am not a crook.

Why? What would you do, create a scene in the store? The stores have those "beeper things" in place to prevent shoplifting. Being manmade they are prone to failure and occasionally the "beeper thing" goes off when a legit customer exits the store. If you don't want that to happen to you then it is simple - don't shop there. Not shopping there is a right you can freely express.
However, if you DO choose to shop there, then you assume certain risks of "beeeper things" going off on you. But if it does fear not. It is virtually painless and the sterility only lasts for 5-10 years.

The malfunctioning beeper thing creates the scene, not me. I am usually walking fast to get the hell out of there, so probably will be gone before the old lady manages to question me. Normally there are lots of smelly, disgusting people near the WalMart entrance, so I am not apt to dally.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[jlmiracle 7]

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Luckily, in America, it's up to a jury, not a cop or judge. Odds are, a jury will wonder why the cameras (there are about 100 or more in your average WalMart) did not see you steal a thing, nor have you ever stole anything or committed any crime in your entire life.

Do you think they have 100 people watching each individual camera?

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[shropshire 0]

I dont know about the legality of requireing a 'customer' to show a proof of purchase reciept...

But I do know that the primary cause of 'shrink' in any shop is internal and the 2nd is 'Collusion at the Till'.

So products do go out of the front door without finding their way onto a till reiept.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Attempting to leave the store with a bag full of merchandise and no receipt is all the evidence they need to have you arrested and for you to be convicted.

I doubt that.

Up here in Canada Loss Prevention needs to see selection, concealement and removal. They also need continuity from one stage to the next and cannot lose sight of the suspect for the (citizens) arrest to be valid. (as a side note, the courts have not yet established if keeping surveillance on camera is enough to maintain continuity)

Once arrested by a citizen (or security officer, really the same thing) they can use reasonable force to control the suspect waiting for the Police to show up. This includes handcuffs and holding cells.

It is much harder to prove a theft is the suspect has not actually left the store, since in many cases they can claim that they were still intending to pay for it.

I am assuming (which can be totally wrong) that most US states would be relatively similar. Citizens (which would include all security officers) cannot detain, but they can arrest if they have witnessed the crime. Police officers can detain and can make arrests based on suspicion/probably cause.

The systems in place in stores like Costco and Best Buy/Circuit City are much more geared towards prevention than actually catching theft.

For the person who made the comment that they should watch the cameras and gave Vegas as an example: You may want to give some thought to some relatively simple economics.....

[willard 0]

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I don't have a problem with private businesses requiring presentation of a receipt. Not only is it douns business practice, it is also not a Constitutional issue because it is a private business.

A search of your person is a constitutional issue, IMO. Once you pay, those items are your posessions, and any search is a violation of your rights.

Here is an example of why this is a bad idea. Should I have to show a receipt for the sunglasses I wore into the store if it is a brand/model they sell? But Mr. Cleark, I bought these a week ago, I have no receipt! Well, I guess you stole them then?

Sorry no. Unless you see me stealing, fuck off.

I'm not a lawer but I am smart enough to know that they don't HAVE to see you stealing or catch it on camera to get a conviction.
"This surge protector? The one in my bag, with your store label? The one I have no receipt for while walking from the register to the door? Yeah, it's mine. I brought it in with me."
Sure you did. Hell, maybe you really did! But I doubt any cop or judge is going to buy your claim.
Sunglasses? I've been asked about mine several times, each time at the store i bought them and by a different cashier. I just tell them I bought them several weeks ago and they are happy with that. It's amazing what a civil response to a question can do to keep a situation from escalating vs a smartass reply.

Luckily, in America, it's up to a jury, not a cop or judge. Odds are, a jury will wonder why the cameras (there are about 100 or more in your average WalMart) did not see you steal a thing, nor have you ever stole anything or committed any crime in your entire life.

And by the way, when they call the cops about your sunglasses, for which you have no receipt, your opinion on the issue will likely change.

If they want to fret about my sunglasses, they can have 'em. After all, they are scratched and gouged and only cost $4.99. But I doubt that will happen. More likely to get hassled about the 52" TV I'm rolling out the door.

BTW, it's very easy to avoid the cameras. Just because it didn't get caught on film didn't mean it didn't happen. Carrying a VCR out the door with no receipt is a sure bet to get you stopped in your tracks until you can prove you did pay for it. Luckily they can go back to the register and look it up.

My vote is as follows...
The store has every right to ask to see your receipt before exiting.
You have the right to refuse to show it, but better be prepared to explain your possesion of the items in question. (Best done with a receipt)
The store had no right to prevent him from leaving the parking lot and the actions of the guy who kept the door from being shut were, in my mind, criminal.
The kid had the right to call the police, which he did.
The cop had the right to ascertain the identification of the kid.
The cop had the right to cite the kid when he refused to cooperate after calling the police.

[normiss 851]

nope....just a computer collecting DAYS of video evidence that my attorney will subpoena.

it's always easier to roll over and take it...history has shown that....and that's why we founded this country...cause we WERE tired of rolling over...

and you just keep telling yourself that none of this matters in your busy, self important life...it makes the changes go without notice...

[Zipp0 1]

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Luckily, in America, it's up to a jury, not a cop or judge. Odds are, a jury will wonder why the cameras (there are about 100 or more in your average WalMart) did not see you steal a thing, nor have you ever stole anything or committed any crime in your entire life.

Do you think they have 100 people watching each individual camera?

j

Why? If you went to court your lawyer would subpeona all of the video files for that day. If there were no images of you stealing or eye witnesses of you stealing, it seems the case would be extremely weak.

I don't know if anyone watches the cameras or not. I'd bet a year's pay that they record them though.

Just because you wear a blue vest does not give you the right to search me. Just because I am in there store does not give them the right to search me. Maybe they could require a search to enter the store, but they don't do that because many customres would tell them to get bent.

And if a woman has stolen goods in her purse, what does showing a receipt prove? It won't be on the receipt, or in the bag, so they will assume that it was a false trigger, and off she goes with stolen property.
It's just not a good or fair system.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[willard 0]

Didn't happen in Canada. Happened in the US. Ohio, in particular. Where they still have capitol punishment for speeding.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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nope....just a computer collecting DAYS of video evidence that my attorney will subpoena.

it's always easier to roll over and take it...history has shown that....and that's why we founded this country...cause we WERE tired of rolling over...

and you just keep telling yourself that none of this matters in your busy, self important life...it makes the changes go without notice...

The American economy (and the Candian one as well) is addicted to low price retailers. To keep the costs low, large boxes are built, with fewer staff, centralized check outs with as much merchandise on the floor as possible, and more visible/intrusive security systems.

Don't like it, maybe you should think about spending some more money and not shopping at big box/discount retailers.

Everything you can buy at Circuit City or Best Buy or Costco you can buy in more intimate specialty stores where they will happily carry your merchandise to your car, or even deliver it to your home for free. No hassles with showing receipts or anything.

You just have to pay a bit more.....

[Zipp0 1]

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More likely to get hassled about the 52" TV I'm rolling out the door.

A clerk from that dept. always escorts these items to the front of the store with you after you pay, so this is not an issue.

Also, I think it's telling that you would just hand over YOUR sunglasses. WTF? You are not a thief, but you will let THEM steal your sungalsses?? FUCK THAT!!!

What if they were $100 sunglasses? Would you just hand them over too since you have no recept?

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Zipp0 1]

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Don't like it, maybe you should think about spending some more money and not shopping at big box/discount retailers.

I am sick and fucking tired of hearing that. I have just as much a right as the next guy to shop there, and I have no obligation to sacrifice my rights by doing so. The store has the legal and ethical obligation to operate without violating my rights. If they don't like it, too bad. When there are a million people a day going in and out of the doors, they don't get to choose who to serve.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[jlmiracle 7]

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t's always easier to roll over and take it...

Whose rolling over? I'm rolling over because I have nothing to hide from a store that I shop in when all they do is ask from my receipt because we have so many people refusing to roll over and get a job and stop stealing?

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cause we WERE tired of rolling over...

Then don't. Go through your life unhappy and difficult, but if your "not rolling over" causes me one disruption in my busy, self important life, then YOU are fucking with my freedoms! I'm sure you believe you are entitled to that regardless if that makes you a descent human being or not.


j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[base428 1]

The bottom line here is what is written in the law books. This guy broke no laws by refusing to show his receipt. He also broke no laws by refusing to show his drivers license to the cop.

It's funny how people are so gullible and willing to give up their rights, their money, their personal information just because someone SAYS they have to. Have you ever told someone NO when they asked for your SSN? It's quite interesting to find out that most hospitals and other businesses can still service you without this information. How would they even know if this was your REAL SSN or birthdate anyway.....but everyone from the cable company to the local rental center wants your SSN. Be a leader, not a passive follower. Refusing to provide information that is not required by law isn't looking for a fight - it's fighting for YOUR freedoms.

I hope the guy wins a few million bucks from Circuit City and the local cops. I think I'll go donate to his Paypal account now.

(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

[Scoop 0]

Some places will have published conditions of entry or service hidden away on a sheet of paper on a wall somewhere. For example nightclubs that have a search policy as condition of entry so it may have well been lawful and he may, just maybe breaching some sort of civil agreement by refusing to show proof of purchase. I'm clutching at straws of course but you never know.

Part of me says bravo. If I had a security guard hassling me for no reason I'd tell him to do one and if he obstructed my path I'd knock him out of it, because thats perfectly legal here.

On the other hand he sounds like aclever, thinks he knows it all stuck up cunt so I kinda hope he gets stuck on for something.

I'm torn

[jlmiracle 7]

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It's just not a good or fair system.

Life's not fair, but is it fair that I have to pay higher prices because if you and some others had it your way, anyone could walk out of a store at anytime with anything as long as no one saw them steal it and when questioned tell them to piss the fuck off?

That's not fair.

It's not fair that I have to go to work every day and choose not to risk jail by theiving when so many others can sleep in every day, go down to Circuit City, Wal-mart, etc. steal a bunch of stuff they didn't earn and are not entitled to.

If we can just get rid of all the criminals, I'm all for showing my receipt. It's not like they are asking for your rig.



j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Richards 0]

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If having freedoms as an American citizen bother you so much and you're so willing to forfeit them simply because it's convenient, why not just go live somewhere else?

Wow...go google the term "straw man arguments". I hardly think a reasonable person could so blatantly misconstrue my arguments as being an opposition to our very freedoms. The store is free to conduct business however they wish, and those who do not like it are free to shop somewhere else. What specific comment did I make that left you with the impression that I wished to live in a fascist or communist dictatorship?

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Zipp0 1]

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Whose rolling over? I'm rolling over because I have nothing to hide j

Das ist sehr gut, meine freunde!

The "nothing to hide" argument has cost people more rights than any other. Phone taps not OK? What are you hiding? Can we searhc your home? No? What are you hiding?

I am not a thief, and I don't need to prove that to anyone. If they have evidence to the contrary, they can play their hand, and I wish them luck.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[willard 0]

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More likely to get hassled about the 52" TV I'm rolling out the door.

A clerk from that dept. always escorts these items to the front of the store with you after you pay, so this is not an issue.

Also, I think it's telling that you would just hand over YOUR sunglasses. WTF? You are not a thief, but you will let THEM steal your sungalsses?? FUCK THAT!!!

What if they were $100 sunglasses? Would you just hand them over too since you have no recept?

Wal-Mart doesn't sell $100 sunglasses and I would never pay that much for sunglasses.
Also, if they DID take my $4.99 scratched-up sunglasses I would also allow them to keep what it was I was GOING to buy and never go back there again.

[willard 0]

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Don't like it, maybe you should think about spending some more money and not shopping at big box/discount retailers.

I am sick and fucking tired of hearing that. I have just as much a right as the next guy to shop there, and I have no obligation to sacrifice my rights by doing so. The store has the legal and ethical obligation to operate without violating my rights. If they don't like it, too bad. When there are a million people a day going in and out of the doors, they don't get to choose who to serve.

The ONLY way that store, or any store, can violate your rights is if you let them. You let them by going there. They are a private business that has every right to set policy. Don't like their policy, don't go.
I realize you don't like that, but what about it don't you understand?

[shropshire 0]

I guess that's O.K .... provided that the policy is posted up front as you enter the shop.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Richards 0]

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Life's not fair, but is it fair that I have to pay higher prices because if you and some others had it your way, anyone could walk out of a store at anytime with anything as long as no one saw them steal it and when questioned tell them to piss the fuck off?

That's not fair.

It's not fair that I have to go to work every day and choose not to risk jail by theiving when so many others can sleep in every day, go down to Circuit City, Wal-mart, etc. steal a bunch of stuff they didn't earn and are not entitled to.

That's the problem with most bar-room lawyers and wannabe-johnny-cochrane constitution thumpers. They like to challenge even reasonable restrictions which benefit us all.

Any attempt to try to curtail behaviour that hurts us all is fear mongered as the first step on a slippery slope to neo-fascism. If people are so upset by this stores policy then shop elsewhere.

I like enforced rules because all too frequently people gain advantage over me by breaking rules that I abide by. Rules (and enforcement of those rules) are designed to try to create fairness. I frequently question the motives of those who challenge rules designed to create fairness.

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Zipp0 1]

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Don't like it, maybe you should think about spending some more money and not shopping at big box/discount retailers.

I am sick and fucking tired of hearing that. I have just as much a right as the next guy to shop there, and I have no obligation to sacrifice my rights by doing so. The store has the legal and ethical obligation to operate without violating my rights. If they don't like it, too bad. When there are a million people a day going in and out of the doors, they don't get to choose who to serve.

The ONLY way that store, or any store, can violate your rights is if you let them. You let them by going there. They are a private business that has every right to set policy. Don't like their policy, don't go.
I realize you don't like that, but what about it don't you understand?

They can set all the policy they want, but they still cannot violate my rights. What part of that don't YOU understand?

I will continue to shop where I want, and stand up for my rights whenever I happen to feel violated. That's how I roll. Accept it and move on, as this isn't really a 'change my mind on the issue' type thing.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[normiss 851]

when the store policy violates our personal rights it is illegal in the us, hence why we do not have to show our receipts...they are simply asking to see them.
IF and WHEN they have probable cause, it's an entirely different game.
What part of this are you people missing????