Draft dodgers Cowards, brave or other

[NCclimber 0]

This whole thing is pretty silly. The contentious statement was "Unfortunately most people who join are in middle to low income families who need money for school."

First off, most of our population are middle or low income. Makes sense that most of our recruits would come from this demographic.

Secondly, I missed where you proved that most people who join, do so for the educational benefits.

[Darius11 12]

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Nearly two-thirds of Army recruits in 2004 came from counties in which median household income is below the U.S. median.

So what is your reasoning that 2/3 of army recruits in 2004 were below the US median income levell?

Do you think that people who have fewer finances are more patriotic then rich Americans?

Do you think the incentives like free education, free chance to learn skills to better your life have nothing to do with someone’s decisions to join up

I wonder why that is so prevalent in Military commercials then? I guess there marketing department is just not as smart as you and john.

If that’s the case and the opportunity has nothing to do with it and it is all about patriotism what’s your explanation for the obvious discrepancy of people who join and wealth?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[NCclimber 0]

How does that address the specifics of my post?

[rhys 0]

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enjoy all you want while sitting safe in a chair promoting war while others die. Stop being a maggot and go join up

good call, It is easy to call someone a coward or a hero.

But does taking a bullet for capitalism (because it sure as hell is not democracy) make you a hero or an Idiot?

Does running make you wise or a coward?

If the concerned war actually meant defending your homeland, then these decisions would actually be intelligent decisions.

But wars that are full of shit, for the capital gain of a small minority and actually placing your country in more danger of another attack....should take much less thought.

The whole world was saying DONT GO INTO IRAQ, but the US were too busy waving flags and praising Bush for being a hero and savior.

His current popularity and the current state of affairs should be a good measure on how wise it was to back him.

Those that want to defend thier OWN country SHOULD refrain from provoking others!!!

Simple Simon.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[bodypilot90 0]

you are wrong

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In summary, we found that, on average, 1999 recruits were more highly educated than the equiv­alent general population, more rural and less urban in origin, and of similar income status. We did not find evidence of minority racial exploitation (by race or by race-weighted ZIP code areas). We did find evidence of a ?Southern military tradition? in that some states, notably in the South and West, provide a much higher proportion of enlisted troops by population.

The household income of recruits generally matches the income distribution of the American population. There are slightly higher proportions of recruits from the middle class and slightly lower proportions from low-income brackets. However, the proportion of high-income recruits rose to a disproportionately high level after the war on ter­rorism began, as did the proportion of highly edu­cated enlistees. All of the demographic evidence that we analyzed contradicts the pro-draft case

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda05-08.cfm

[NCclimber 0]

You guys are great!

Love that over-the-top shtick.

Such chutzpah!

Reminds me of the "guests" they'd have on SNL Weekend Update.

Priceless.

[pirana 0]

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Geez where do I start on that one, oh yeah, nevermind...why enlighten you.

Well there you have it folks, I am an armchair bound, maggot, unwilling to fight, according to freethefly.

Wow, what will you call the next person.

You imply that everyone else who wish not to die in Bush's war is a maggot. you imply that those who refused to go to Nam is a maggot. You should remember that Bush got the gravy duty so not to go to Nam. That's far worst than those who crossed to Canada. Guess he's a maggot also.
I bet you consider me a maggot amongst other things. Pesonaly, I do not give a damn what anyone thinks of me. Think away. Have fun. Enjoy your chair.

But maggots eventually fly free. Not such a bad thing. Beware the swatter though.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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You guys are great!

Love that over-the-top shtick.

Such chutzpah!

Reminds me of the "guests" they'd have on SNL Weekend Update.

Priceless.

Never mind.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Darius11 12]

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you are wrong

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In summary, we found that, on average, 1999 recruits were more highly educated than the equiv­alent general population, more rural and less urban in origin, and of similar income status. We did not find evidence of minority racial exploitation (by race or by race-weighted ZIP code areas). We did find evidence of a ?Southern military tradition? in that some states, notably in the South and West, provide a much higher proportion of enlisted troops by population.

The household income of recruits generally matches the income distribution of the American population. There are slightly higher proportions of recruits from the middle class and slightly lower proportions from low-income brackets. However, the proportion of high-income recruits rose to a disproportionately high level after the war on ter­rorism began, as did the proportion of highly edu­cated enlistees. All of the demographic evidence that we analyzed contradicts the pro-draft case

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda05-08.cfm

I used a Newpaper your using these guys for fact

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Founded in 1973, The Heritage Foundation is a research and educational institute - a think tank - whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense.

So i belive your wrong

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Amazon 7]

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In Reply To
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You guys are great!

Love that over-the-top shtick.

Such chutzpah!

Reminds me of the "guests" they'd have on SNL Weekend Update.

Priceless.

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Never mind

Want to guess where the information comes from that fuels that...hmm lets make a guess could it be the Volksfront.. or Thule Publications.
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp?S=OR&m=5
Sounds like someone could not get their Volksfront Fix after the speech......awwwww
They are a local skinhead group that purports to support working class values...
http://www.volksfrontinternational.com/

[warpedskydiver 0]

I would like to take this opportunity to thank freethefly and anyone else who has served this country.

We may have our differences, but I will be the first to admit, that at least he did serve.

Now on to calling me a coward, or an armchair commando.

Does anyone really think that of me and if so what are those ideas based upon?

What would I have to do for an encore to prove my devotion to my country, and to my fellow countrymen?

Should I have died from the injuries I incurred while serving?

Would that have been enough?

I get the feeling that a few people around here would not be satisfied.

[Amazon 7]

I think you know how I feel about serving our country...

I wish more of our fellow countrymen thought is was honorable.. unlike one very right wing poster here who pretty much said no way because he was not going to endanger himself for that kind of money

So basically all that patriotism is for someone else to put it on the line for... he and others like him do not want to be bothered.....but yet will spout patriotic bullshit.
I also believe its a travesty how veterans have always been treated AFTER their service.... some people get that and try to do something about it.. but usually its NOT the people who were so hot to trot to use the troops to make money for them in the excellent little adventures overseas that they dream up.

[rehmwa 2]

I can see an answer of "coward" of course. I can also see an answer of "other" where other has very good rational.

But I just don't see how "brave" is any aspect of draft dodging.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[warpedskydiver 0]

Yes I do know Jean, and thanks for your service as well.

Yes it seems very fashionable to some to forget those who have served, and treat them as less than
ordinary citizens, and far less than deserving of the thanks they EARNED.

[Darius11 12]

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I can see an answer of "coward" of course. I can also see an answer of "other" where other has very good rational.

But I just don't see how "brave" is any aspect of draft dodging.

Brave as in you have to stand up against family and community to say you do not believe in this war and will not fight for it.

Don’t forget before the Iraq Invasion many of us who were against the war were called many names. So at that time right before the invasion it would have been much easier to follow with most Americans.


Standing up for what you believe and being persecuted for it always takes some chutzpah
Does it not.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[rehmwa 2]

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een much easier to follow with most Americans.


Standing up for what you believe and being persecuted for it always takes some chutzpah
Does it not.

chutzpah? yes
ability to handle name calling? sure
bravery? no, not really

If you categorize the "sticks and stones" approach as equal to "Bravery", then we are on a different page.

If you are only basing your poll on the current conflict, I don't think protesting is out of the mainstream either, so protesting wouldn't make one much of an outcast at all, either. So no, it's not bravery to avoid a draft, (if there was one).

"persecuted?" - I guess if you call persecution being kissed up to by about 50% of the people out there, maybe getting on TV to discuss your point of view, staying home and watching TV, maybe being slightly annoyed and guilty when you see your friends serving - to be 'persecuted', then I guess we are rife with persecution. One might even cry a bit if they are called a name. It's nearly as bad as being called a 'baby killer' and being spit upon for serving. (or riding the Tour de France for that matter). Yup, real brave.

It might be determined, confident, resolute, etc, and many other admirable things. And these might be real, or perceived, or at least self justified. But bravery equalling draft dodging is just a misuse of the word.

If one had to face real and physical conflict to avoid a draft for one's principles, then maybe we'd have a different discussion. But US history doesn't show any real threat to run away from the responsibility.

So I just don't see how anyone can equate it on a general basis like this poll.

one might refuse for many reasons:

1 - chicken (chicken, not brave)
2 - have a real philosophical opposition to the conflict (good for them, speak up, but not brave)
3 - make a political statement (bored asshole, likely chicken)
4 - lazy

I don't see bravery in any of them. Name the last person in this conflict to be jailed or tortured for refusing to volunteer..........

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Darius11 12]

Well I was talking originally about the Vietnam era.


I guess bravery should be used only when you could be hurt or killed.

I stand corrected Sir

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[NCclimber 0]

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Well I was talking originally about the Vietnam era.

I see... running away to Canada (or working the system) to avoid military service can be contrued as an act of bravery?

Right.

[JohnRich 4]

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running away to Canada (or working the system) to avoid military service can be contrued as an act of bravery?

Right.

I think it takes more courage to step forward and serve, even if you don't agree with the war, then it does to run and hide from the war.

[NCclimber 0]

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running away to Canada (or working the system) to avoid military service can be contrued as an act of bravery?

Right.

I think it takes more courage to step forward and serve, even if you don't agree with the war, then it does to run and hide from the war.

What if they're catapulting livestock at you?

[rehmwa 2]

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I think it takes more courage to step forward and serve, even if you don't agree with the war, then it does to run and hide from the war.

I also think it takes courage to refuse to serve, and to stay in the country and do the jail time under law. (vs running away and hiding in another country.)

but the "big brave heroes" hid in Canada, didn't they

but there is no draft, so this whole thread is moot.

Edit: I absolutely refuse to equate "not volunteering" in today's scenario with "dodging a draft" ala history, also.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Ha Ha Ha ... we here in Canada will pretty much accept anyone into our country no questions asked. This doesn't matter if you are a brave draft dodger, an Islamic terrorist, a corrupt member of the Sudanese government or any other special interest group. We will let you in, give you a place to live, give you welfare and promise you free healthcare (though we won't tell you that you stand a good chance of dying in one of our free hospitals since we managed to chase all of our doctors and nurses out of the country).

Anyway we prefer our new immigrants to support the LIEberal party of Canada (we turn a blind eye if you also like the socialist NDP), but please we really don't like it when our immigrants support the Tory party (we will bombard you with Boogie Man stories about the Tories if you don't believe us). Oh one last thing, it is a requirment for all new immigrants to Canada to hate the USA as we here in Canada strongly feel that we are superior in every way to the US.

Thank you very kindly for you cooperation, your welfare cheque is now in the mail.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohnRich 4]

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I also think it takes courage to refuse to serve, and to stay in the country and do the jail time under law. (vs running away and hiding in another country.)

Agreed, somewhat. But serving jail time doesn't take near as much courage as facing enemy bullets. Not even close.

[rehmwa 2]

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I also think it takes courage to refuse to serve, and to stay in the country and do the jail time under law. (vs running away and hiding in another country.)

Agreed, somewhat. But serving jail time doesn't take near as much courage as facing enemy bullets. Not even close.

I agree, I was just dividing the true protesters from the hypocrits

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

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I also think it takes courage to refuse to serve, and to stay in the country and do the jail time under law. (vs running away and hiding in another country.)

Agreed, somewhat. But serving jail time doesn't take near as much courage as facing enemy bullets. Not even close.

So how much courage does it take to take a non fighting position instead? (IE, Shrub, who didn't even serve that commitment)

I think in that era, I'd have angled to volunteer for a brains position that kept me well away from the front lines.

What was really funny on this subject was when I graduated high school just as Gulf I started up, my hippie [ex] step father was getting paranoid about a draft and suggesting I start becoming a Quaker to build CO status. I declined such a suggestion for many reasons.