Wouldn’t you feel safer with a gun?

[Amazon 7]

Just go see "The Brave One"

It will fill the bill nicely.


Some people just need killin.....and when predators have to worry about their prey being able to fight back....perhaps a few of them would crawl back under the rocks where they normally hide and leave other people alone.

[sv3n 0]

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You were quite lucky to not have been left dead on the street.

That is about all I can surmise from that.

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And every unarmed person who has defended himself/herself against an assault without a gun knows that the idea that "you need a gun to defend yourself" is bullshit.

Bill Von said that folks, just incase you cant remember from just a few lines up.

Just remember when it comes to defending yourself use Bill's advice and never use a gun.

There are tens of thousands(if not many more) of people lying in their graves who did not use a gun in their attempt to defend themsleves.

And here I was under the stupid assumption that in defending ones life that every possible measure should be taken.

That's a pretty inane argument.......there's also tens of thousand of people laying in their grave because they ate at McD's a lot, should they carry a gun? Like the simpson's episode where homer gets a gun and uses it for everything....turn on the lights, turn off the lights, change the channel...........that was a joke. A gun is not the magical cure to all of life's problems. There are people who get their weapons, knives guns etc, taken away from them during an altercation and killed............so that would be a great argument with your logic to not carry a weapon because had they not had the weapon in the first place then it would've never escalated to that point. Also by your logic, if there were no guns then there would be no gun crimes.

The simple fact is that there's an infinite number of possibilities that can arise in any situation. But if you introduce a weapon into an altercation of any kind then you have just forced the other person to back down or escalate things to your level............sometimes they'll back down and sometimes they'll play on your level. But if you left it alone in the first place then there would be no reason to escalate things. No sense in pouring fuel on the fire if you're trying to put it out.

PS - there's a big difference between defending one's life and telling someone to get their own damn cheetos.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[sv3n 0]

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>That is simply not true . . .

Really? So what really did happen to me in Times Square in December of 1985? Apparently you were there and saw a different version of events than I did, because I didn't have a gun and seemed to do just fine against a mugger.

But I will await your clarification.

So a young, tall guy was able to defend himself.

Now gain 20 more years and some arthritis, lose 5 inches of height and strength, and try again.

72 year old vs 27 year old mugger........http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/112811/Old_Man_72_Beats_Down_Would_Be_Mugger.html............just cause you turn old doesn't mean you can't defend yourself. The guy was just prepared.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[warpedskydiver 0]

I can almost guarantee that the 72yr old wished he was armed.

Especially if that was the 72yr old former US MARINE

and when anyone defends themsleves with thier fists the criminal can decide to run away, escalate it, or just shoot them dead.

At that point the crminal can pretty much do as they wish.

A gun is not the only solution, but having it and not needing it, is far better than needing it and not having it.

[JohnRich 4]

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Funny thing about a hook knife. You don't need it if you don't put yourself into a situation where it is warranted. Don't skydive, no hook knife needed. Live street smart and you don't need a gun.

And what happens when the bad guys break into your own home?

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/news/559821,091607burglarshotbycop.article

Maybe this cop should have used judo like billvon, instead of resorting to his gun?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/14080286/detail.html

What about this guy? Oh, he's in a wheelchair, and probably can't use judo. Tsk tsk.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hf-AEnFWoCNjqSYEIP6TD-5R7fhg

A 71-year-old man against a thug with a tire iron! Maybe he should have used some billvon-judo, instead of a gun?

The point is, being "street smart" is no guarantee of safety. Oftentimes, trouble finds you, even though you are doing your best to avoid it. And if you think that being street-smart makes you immune from attack, then you're likely to be rudely surprised some day.

[billvon 3,070]

>And what happens when the bad guys break into your own home?

Run and call the cops. If you can't run, and they are threatening your life - then a gun might come in handy. If your gun makes you "brave" enough to stand and engage in a firefight with an intruder, though, it might also just make you dead.

Same thing with a hookknife, cypres, reserve - anything that's a backup. When used as a backup to your good judgment, then it will help keep you alive. When used as a replacement, then it just might help put you in a coffin.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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>And what happens when the bad guys break into your own home?

Run and call the cops. If you can't run, and they are threatening your life - then a gun might come in handy. If your gun makes you "brave" enough to stand and engage in a firefight with an intruder, though, it might also just make you dead.

Same thing with a hookknife, cypres, reserve - anything that's a backup. When used as a backup to your good judgment, then it will help keep you alive. When used as a replacement, then it just might help put you in a coffin.

And just to add this: a gun isn't the only EP you need to survive IRL.

To an above post to me: Yes, I've fired many different type of handguns and rifles. I also believe in gun ownership. And about an older person pulling a gun, esp if they were arthritic....I know that my grandparents (now passed) in their 70s could barely pour a cup of coffee without dropping the pot or spilling coffee all over the counter. I wouldn't want to be anywhere on the same block with them if they choose to pick up a gun.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[kelpdiver 2]

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And just to add this: a gun isn't the only EP you need to survive IRL.

No one is suggesting it is. However, it is the only option that have people organized to try to ban it.

[kelpdiver 2]

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There are people who get their weapons, knives guns etc, taken away from them during an altercation and killed

How many of those people are there?

[billvon 3,070]

New England Journal of Medicine
Volume 314:1557-1560
June 12, 1986
Number 24

Protection or peril? An analysis of firearm-related deaths in the home
AL Kellermann, and DT Reay

Abstract

To study the epidemiology of deaths involving firearms kept in the home, we reviewed all the gunshot deaths that occurred in King County, Washington (population 1,270,000), from 1978 through 1983. The medical examiner's case files were supplemented by police records or interviews with investigating officers or both, to obtain specific information about the circumstances, the scene of the incident, the type of firearm involved, and the relationship of the suspect to the victim. A total of 743 firearm-related deaths occurred during this six-year period, 398 of which (54 percent) occurred in the residence where the firearm was kept. Only 2 of these 398 deaths (0.5 percent) involved an intruder shot during attempted entry. Seven persons (1.8 percent) were killed in self-defense. For every case of self-protection homicide involving a firearm kept in the home, there were 1.3 accidental deaths, 4.6 criminal homicides, and 37 suicides involving firearms. Hand-guns were used in 70.5 percent of these deaths. The advisability of keeping firearms in the home for protection must be questioned.

[kelpdiver 2]

come on, Bill, that crap was debunked two decades ago. It also says nothing about people having their own guns taken and used against them.

The only gun control writing more soundly destroyed was the fraud in Arming America.

[billvon 3,070]

>It also says nothing about people having their own guns taken and used against them.
---------------------------------------
06/07/2007

Pa. officer shot with own gun during scuffle; manhunt ensues

The Associated Press

NEW HOLLAND, Pa. — A police officer was shot in a struggle with a man he confronted near his own house while on patrol, and police from more than a dozen departments searched for the suspect with helicopters and dogs Thursday.

. . .

"A scuffle occurred, resulting in Officer Yarbrough being shot by his own firearm," Hertzog said.
time”
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Jul 22, 2007
Gang member shot in leg, by his own gun

An admitted gang member was shot in the leg during a fight Monday night in Visalia, but police said he did it himself.
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Police Officer Shot, Injured With Own Gun
Officer Pursuing Offender Who Was Also Injured

POSTED: 11:29 am CDT September 14, 2007

CHICAGO -- An offender and a police officer were shot -- the officer with his own gun -- in a confrontation in a South Side public housing development Friday morning.
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Thursday, December 22, 2005
State Trooper Shot With Own Gun

A state trooper killed earlier this month after an early morning highway chase was shot twice with his own weapon, a prosecutor said Wednesday.
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Friday, March 02, 2007
Carjacker shot with own gun

A 60-year-old woman in Texas wrestled a gun away from a 19-year-old carjacker and shot him in the stomach with it, police said. He got his gun back, ran away and is in critical condition, they said.
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OFFICER IS KILLED WITH HIS OWN GUN

A police officer was shot to death with his own gun in a South Bronx store yesterday after he stopped a man accused of stealing a pair of eyeglass frames from a display case, the police said.
-------------

[AWL71 0]

What is your point? Just because a police officer can have his gun taken from him we should ban handguns, It is the law of averages. Sometimes cops will have their own guns turned on them. But the other 99.9% of the time the cops are an the right side of the gun.

The example where the gangbanger shot himself hardly applies. That is operator error. A gun is a mechanical device that is not dumbass proof. If you pull the trigger it will go boom.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[kelpdiver 2]

so the answer is 4 over 2+ years? Thanks for making my case.

considering the 10,000 fatal shootings a year count, that's not even statistical noise, esp as some of your's were non fatal.

[billvon 3,070]

>Just because a police officer can have his gun taken from him we
>should ban handguns.

No, it doesn't mean that. But it does prove that your gun may help you, and it may kill you. Use one if you like, but do not pretend that it will always make you safer. It may also make you dead - especially if you are confronting a criminal.

[billvon 3,070]

> so the answer is 4 over 2+ years?

Nope. That's what a 30 second Google search turned up. I posted more comprehensive numbers which you immediately claimed were invalid. The Google search indicates that it does indeed happen, and thus the numbers are not quite as invalid as you claim.

[sv3n 0]

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There are people who get their weapons, knives guns etc, taken away from them during an altercation and killed

How many of those people are there?

billvon just pretty much proved to you that it does happen. as far as how many there are? who knows.........I never claimed a number, just that it happens. Do your own research.

as I've been saying..........you escalate things to the point where now weapons need to be used, then you might get the same treatment. Golden rule, treat others the way you want to be treated........and just because others don't follow it doesn't mean you shouldn't. Anybody can have a gun, by pulling yours you're giving them a reason to use theirs.

guns can be a great self defense tool, but only as an absolute last resort..........you pull it right away and you're putting yourself and everybody else in the vacinity in danger. I think a lot of people have been watching too many Die Hard movies.......just because you know how to shoot doesn't mean the other guy doesn't and needs to unload a whole clip out of an MP5 to knick your shoulder once.

He made a bad call by pulling out a gun on a couple of kids......I hope next time he has a little more common sense. If he really thought he was in the right he would have called the police to prevent it from happening to anyone else.

And only keeping a few things in your wallet isn't living in fear......it's called being prepared, you could lose your wallet at anytime. Wether it falls out of your pocket or you get held up.........it's just being smart.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[kelpdiver 2]

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> so the answer is 4 over 2+ years?

Nope. That's what a 30 second Google search turned up. I posted more comprehensive numbers which you immediately claimed were invalid. The Google search indicates that it does indeed happen, and thus the numbers are not quite as invalid as you claim.

The Kellerman bit is invalid because it doesn't answer the question. It merely compares the ratio of dead bad guys in a city in Washington to dead residents, be it from suicide, attacks, whatever. Doesn't count any incidents where bad guy lives or runs (ie, nearly all of them). The near entirety of the 43:1 ratio came from suicides, which will happen with or without the gun.

I asked Sven, how often does a gun get used against its owner? So far, the answer is twice a year. That's not really compelling support for the argument that you're putting yourself in danger.

[billvon 3,070]

The Kellerman article states that during the study period, 398 deaths occurred in the residence where the firearm was kept. Only 2 of the 398 deaths involved the shooting of an intruder.

So if you have a gun in your house, and (god forbid) it is someday used to kill someone, odds are .5% that the person killed will be an intruder attempting entry, and 99.5% that it will be someone else (yourself intentionally, yourself unintentionally, your drunk neighbor, your child etc etc.)

Assuming that study is representative, of course.

In this way it's a lot like an AAD. Most AAD firings are NOT due to unconsciousness or incapacitation (which is why most people claim to buy them) - they are due to people pulling too low. Fortunately, having an AAD fire accidentally is less likely to kill you than being shot accidentally.

[kelpdiver 2]

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The Kellerman article states that during the study period, 398 deaths occurred in the residence where the firearm was kept. Only 2 of the 398 deaths involved the shooting of an intruder.

I'll repeat.

Doesn't count any incidents where bad guy lives or runs (ie, nearly all of them).

The rest of your analysis was crap as a result. You want to be honest in this sort of thing - lose the suicides as a starting point.

[billvon 3,070]

>Doesn't count any incidents where bad guy lives or runs (ie, nearly all of them).

I didn't say it did. I said that if a gun in your house is used to kill someone, these are the odds. See above; it's right there.

Now, if you'd care to introduce any numbers that show that thousands of criminals flee houses when they see a homeowner with a gun, then feel free to do so. It's a separate issue, although certainly related to the thread.

>The rest of your analysis was crap as a result.

Why are you getting so angry over this? As I've said several times, get a gun if you want. Carry it if you want. Just don't fool yourself into thinking it makes you immune from crime, injury or death - because in many cases it does the opposite.

Again, it's like an AAD.* If you always pull at the right altitude, and are diligent about emergency procedures, and avoid zoo loads - it's a great backup. If you use it to give you enough confidence to do zoo loads, or to freefly without looking at the ground occasionally - then it might just contribute to injury or death.

(* - an AAD is a device that automatically opens your reserve parachute if you fail to open it by a certain altitude.)

[kelpdiver 2]

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>The rest of your analysis was crap as a result.

Why are you getting so angry over this?

I dunno (angry is an overstatement). I guess I'm tired of your strawmen, and your avoiding the question by redefining it, and using some of the worst gun grabbing propoganda out there to do it.

The issue was guns being taken and used against their owner. You knew that, but had nothing legitimate to work with.

Not a single person has claimed to be immune from bad things because they carry a gun. Stop pretending otherwise.

[Flygurl 0]

i did not read the many comments to your post. I only wish to add my comments.

Some of you will remember my post from several years ago, "Why I love My Concealed Carry Permit".


That story ought to be enough, but, on August 24th of 2007 I have an additional story to share:

I travel the country in an RV to show dogs. I arrived at a rest area in Ohio at about 1:30am. Two men persisted in harassing me despite the presence of a dog that accompanied me into the restroom.

After being menaced by the men I sent the dog out toward the men, barking. They backed up when the dog began barking and growling aggressively. They did not desist until I made it to my vehicle and released five addiitional dogs. They left the rest area at that time and I made a report to the Ohio State Police including their license numbers.

My concealed carry permit was not needed, but was much appreciated.

Having the means and ability to protect ones self is priceless!!!!

________________________________________

"One out of every four American's are suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they're okay, then it's you."

[kallend 2,106]

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>The rest of your analysis was crap as a result.

Why are you getting so angry over this?

I dunno (angry is an overstatement). I guess I'm tired of your strawmen, and your avoiding the question by redefining it, and using some of the worst gun grabbing propoganda out there to do it.

The issue was guns being taken and used against their owner. You knew that, but had nothing legitimate to work with.

Not a single person has claimed to be immune from bad things because they carry a gun. Stop pretending otherwise.

I think the issue is people who fail to acknowledge that the simple fact of carrying a gun can have a negative outcome, and often does.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AWL71 0]

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>The rest of your analysis was crap as a result.

Why are you getting so angry over this?

I dunno (angry is an overstatement). I guess I'm tired of your strawmen, and your avoiding the question by redefining it, and using some of the worst gun grabbing propoganda out there to do it.

The issue was guns being taken and used against their owner. You knew that, but had nothing legitimate to work with.

Not a single person has claimed to be immune from bad things because they carry a gun. Stop pretending otherwise.

I think the issue is people who fail to acknowledge that the simple fact of carrying a gun can have a negative outcome, and often does.

With the exception of "often" you make a valid point. I carry a pistol at times and yes I take a small,very small, risk that the gun would be taken from me. The security the gun affords me is more than worth the trade off. Pistols should be used responsibly and if you carry one you should know how to use it and not be afraid to use it if need be.

If there was a way to track how many times a pistol has been used to deter crime I think the numbers would be staggering. The only time you hear about a confrontation is when the shit hits the fan. You never hear about the times when the mere appearance of a pistol by a CCW holder makes the criminals turn tail and run.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.