Is the Surge Working?

[Zipp0 1]

It seems the old playbook is in full swing - say it over and over again ("propel the propaganda" -Bush) until people believe it.

If you look at US troop deaths in Iraq by year and month, you see that US troop deaths have increased significantly, not decreased. Looking at each year through August we see:

US Deaths By Month:
Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug
2003 0 0 65 74 37 30 48 35
2004 47 20 52 135 80 42 54 66
2005 107 58 35 52 80 78 54 85
2006 62 55 31 76 69 61 43 65
2007 83 81 81 104 126 101 79 84

2004 - 496
2005 - 549
2006 - 462
2007 - 739

So how can we say the surge is working? Does more US deaths mean things are going better? If things are working even a little, should 2007 be a bit better, instead of the deadliest year ever in the Iraq war?

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[AWL71 0]

I don't think the number of deaths is how you measure success. Of course we want the lowest number of fatalities possible. I have three friends in Iraq and they all believe in what they are doing and they all three feel that much progress has been made in Iraq and that is good enough for me.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[Zipp0 1]

I had a friend just return from Iraq and he told a different story. He is former Army, and now a contractor, so his viewpoint is a bit different.

I'd bet the American people would equate more US deaths with failure, not success.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Royd 0]

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I'd bet the American people would equate more US deaths with failure, not success.

By that measure, which war wasn't a failure?

[Zipp0 1]

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I'd bet the American people would equate more US deaths with failure, not success.

By that measure, which war wasn't a failure?

OK RISING US deaths. And I am talking about the surge, not the war. We won the war. To claim success in the surge, I would thing we would need to see a falling death toll, and relative calm, which we are not seeing.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Royd 0]

I'd bet the American people would equate more US deaths with failure, not success.

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By that measure, which war wasn't a failure?

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OK RISING US deaths. And I am talking about the surge, not the war. We won the war. To claim success in the surge, I would thing we would need to see a falling death toll, and relative calm, which we are not seeing.

Sooner or later, AQ is going to start running out of dedicated people and munitions, and at that point, they will probably make one huge final effort. The death toll of civilians and soldiers will rise drastically for a short period.

Just my prediction.

[Clownburner 0]

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Sooner or later, AQ is going to start running out of dedicated people and munitions, and at that point, they will probably make one huge final effort. The death toll of civilians and soldiers will rise drastically for a short period.

Unlikely, since our current foreign policy seems hell-bent on suppling al-queda with as many recruits as they want.

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[jakee 1,500]

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Sooner or later, AQ is going to start running out of dedicated people and munitions,

There really are only so many AK-47s in the world.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[juanesky 0]

According to Sen Schmuck (AKA Achumer), (D-NY) no, it was the war lords in Ramadi and Al-anbar province that made possible the peace the region now enjoys. It was none of us, nor the surge had anything to do.

But what the hell, you already made up your mind. No point in telling you what some troops have seen in there, before and after the surge.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[rushmc 23]

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I had a friend just return from Iraq and he told a different story. He is former Army, and now a contractor, so his viewpoint is a bit different.

I'd bet the American people would equate more US deaths with failure, not success.

Your friend (who has every right to his/her opinion) is in the minority. I make this conculsion based on the fact that the military has the hightest re-enlistment rate ever. The reason being giving the most is that they want to finish the job. A job they believe needs competion.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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I'd bet the American people would equate more US deaths with failure, not success.

By that measure, which war wasn't a failure?

OK RISING US deaths. And I am talking about the surge, not the war. We won the war. To claim success in the surge, I would thing we would need to see a falling death toll, and relative calm, which we are not seeing.

Anbar was stated to be un-winnable. Today it is looked to as the goal for the rest of the country. How is that for a measure?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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Sooner or later, AQ is going to start running out of dedicated people and munitions, and at that point, they will probably make one huge final effort. The death toll of civilians and soldiers will rise drastically for a short period.

Unlikely, since our current foreign policy seems hell-bent on suppling al-queda with as many recruits as they want.

Source please or I call bull shit!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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According to Sen Schmuck (AKA Achumer), (D-NY) no, it was the war lords in Ramadi and Al-anbar province that made possible the peace the region now enjoys. It was none of us, nor the surge had anything to do. and why is that do you thinK? First of Schumer is a shit basket. But why (there are reasons he says what he says) and a reason he will not give you because it does not support his anti US get himself more power bs.

But what the hell, you already made up your mind. No point in telling you what some troops have seen in there, before and after the surge.

As it seems you have.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tkhayes 348]

no it's not working, nothing has changed - but to soothe the public, Petraeus gave a 'undefinable' view in his report, the President is backing it up (therefore supporting his troops)

and the President is promising a partial withdrawal of troops (therefore pleasing the public) although he did not say exactly how or when.

What a load of political BULLSHIT.

"Mission Accomplished in 2003" but today we cannot even define what the 'mission' is, much less meet it.

To have a meaningful goal or objective, it must be definable, measurable and attainable.

Ours in Iraq and barely definable, yes, they probably are measurable (if we could define them), and they most certainly do NOT appear to be attainable.

Therefore, I suggest we quit - pack up and go home. Leave the fucking mess to the Arabs to sort out. 'cause they are not going to collaborate with us, not matter how hard we try, not for a fucking 100 years.

[rushmc 23]

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no it's not working, nothing has changed - but to soothe the public, Petraeus gave a 'undefinable' view in his report, the President is backing it up (therefore supporting his troops)

and the President is promising a partial withdrawal of troops (therefore pleasing the public) although he did not say exactly how or when.

What a load of political BULLSHIT.

"Mission Accomplished in 2003" but today we cannot even define what the 'mission' is, much less meet it.

To have a meaningful goal or objective, it must be definable, measurable and attainable.

Ours in Iraq and barely definable, yes, they probably are measurable (if we could define them), and they most certainly do NOT appear to be attainable.

Therefore, I suggest we quit - pack up and go home. Leave the fucking mess to the Arabs to sort out. 'cause they are not going to collaborate with us, not matter how hard we try, not for a fucking 100 years.

Hell the fucking YES!!! Lets just wait for them to have thier "Perfect Day"!!!!!!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tkhayes 348]

I never said 'wait', I said BRING IT HOME.

we can easily defend our own borders with the resources we have overseas. Katrina is a perfect example of where we put billions into foreign countries while ignoring our own people and needs.

For some reason you seem to trust the govt to run the military properly, i.e. run a war for hundreds of billions of dollars, but at the same time not trust the government to take care of its own people and run a system of border security, health care and education......

border security, education, health care, taking care of your OWN......what a concept huh?


hmm, paradoxical no?

[rushmc 23]

FROM AP.

Giuliani: Clinton Smeared Gen. Petraeus

Thursday, September 13, 2007 5:26 PM

Article Font Size




Republican presidential contender Rudy Giuliani on Thursday accused Democratic rival Hillary Rodham Clinton of participating in "character assassination" for questioning Gen. David Petraeus about his assessment of progress in Iraq.


Clinton, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, was one of several Democrats and some Republicans who expressed skepticism with President Bush's top military general's more positive outlook on Iraq than recent independent reviews.


Petraeus and U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker told Congress Iraq remains largely dysfunctional but said violence in recent months had decreased since the influx of 30,000 additional troops earlier this year.


"The reports that you provide to us really require the willing suspension of disbelief," Clinton said Tuesday.


Campaigning in Georgia, Giuliani assailed Clinton for the second straight day and tried to link her to a newspaper ad from the liberal anti-war group MoveOn critical of Petraeus. The ad accused Petraeus of "cooking the books" for the White House. "General Petraeus or General Betray Us?" it asked, playing off his name.


MoveOn is an independent organization.


"We believe, unlike Hillary Clinton, that General Petraeus is telling the truth," Giuliani said.


Calling the ad abominable, Giuliani said Clinton's comments followed up on it "in a very, very coincidental way."


He added, "What I don't think should happen in political discourse is the kind of character assassination that MoveOn.org participated in in calling him General Betray Us, that The New York Times gave them a discount to do and that Hillary Clinton followed up on with an attack on his integrity."


He also said, "It is time for Americans to really insist that American politicians move beyond character assassination and this is exactly what they attempted to do with General Petraeus."


"Maybe you can disagree with his tactics," Giuliani said of Petraeus. "I agree with them, but you have no right to disagree with his integrity."


"Their excessive political zeal led them to character assassination," he said


Giuliani made the comments after shaking hands with a the lunchtime crowd eating fried green tomatoes at the OK Cafe in Atlanta. A version of the old Georgia flag, which contains the Confederate battle emblem, hung on the wall.


Responding to reporters' questions outside the restaurant, Giuliani repeated his contention that illegal immigration is not a crime.


"It's up to the U.S. Congress to decide that, and the U.S. law books say that crossing the border without permission is a misdemeanor. Other than that, it's not a crime," he said.


"Congress tried to make it a crime, but didn't make it a crime, so that's a question of law, not political rhetoric or political spinning or political position."


He quickly changed the subject.


Guiliani also headlined three fundraisers in the state Thursday.





© 2007 Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Look buddy, Moveon.org and its out of country money supplier are the worst thing that has happened to this country and/or the Democratic party. The Dems are so afraid they will be Liebermaned they have to bow to them. Soros has got to go The Dems were never this bad until him

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tkhayes 348]

as I said earlier, - what a load of POLITICAL BULLSHIT

from both sides. I did not pick political parties in my statements. You seem to assume that I am a Democrat, incorrect.

The fact that Clinton and/or Giuliani are talking about this proves that the issue is political, and I expect will serve no purpose except fodder for folks who hope to get elected (on both sides). The report will not solve any issues nor make any really good recommendations (because there are none at this point)

I said it is not winnable, not definable, therefore we should leave. More dead US soldiers and no victory is what awaits our future if we do not - 'stay the course' means just what we have been doing for 4 years now.

and you and I will always differ on what 'progress' or 'success' or 'victory' means, therefore, as I said, it is undefinable.

therefore we should leave.
TK

[rushmc 23]

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as I said earlier, - what a load of POLITICAL BULLSHIT

from both sides. I did not pick political parties in my statements. You seem to assume that I am a Democrat, incorrect.

The fact that Clinton and/or Giuliani are talking about this proves that the issue is political, and I expect will serve no purpose except fodder for folks who hope to get elected (on both sides). The report will not solve any issues nor make any really good recommendations (because there are none at this point)

I said it is not winnable, not definable, therefore we should leave. More dead US soldiers and no victory is what awaits our future if we do not - 'stay the course' means just what we have been doing for 4 years now.

and you and I will always differ on what 'progress' or 'success' or 'victory' means, therefore, as I said, it is undefinable.

therefore we should leave.
TK

To a point you and I are in agreement. Where we agree? Yes, it has been made a political issue. We may disagree by whom. But, we are not in Iraq for political reasons. Kill them there, or die here. Do some reseach on "The Perfect Day". It will scare the hell out of you.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tkhayes 348]

the 'perfect day' is a work of fiction, a dream if you will - much like the 'dream' of our government, and sadly, many other Americanstoo - that we are doing something good over there.

kill them there, sure - but who exactly? So far we have killed up to 1,000,000 civilians - at least more than 100,000. none of those were or are terrorists

most were just ordinary people, and I take serious offense that this is 'good for America'

If we had a target (i.e as we did in Afghanistan), then by all means go for it.

right now we are creating more terrorists than we are destroying.

kill them there, by all means, but I argue, as I did before, that we could do the same here, within our borders, at lesser costs, by enforcing the laws that we already have in place, and taking care of OURSELVES, not pouring money into some foreign war.

alas, the mistakes of the past will be recreated over and over again, with no resolve.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Your friend (who has every right to his/her opinion) is in the minority. I make this conculsion based on the fact that the military has the hightest re-enlistment rate ever. The reason being giving the most is that they want to finish the job. A job they believe needs competion.

Source please or I call bull shit!

[jenfly00 0]

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I had a friend just return from Iraq and he told a different story. He is former Army, and now a contractor, so his viewpoint is a bit different.

I'd bet the American people would equate more US deaths with failure, not success.

Your friend (who has every right to his/her opinion) is in the minority. I make this conculsion based on the fact that the military has the hightest re-enlistment rate ever. The reason being giving the most is that they want to finish the job. A job they believe needs competion.

They are reinlisting because they get to do what they are trained to do. They are reinlisting because now is the time for careers to be made. They are reinlisting out to loyalty to their brothers/sisters in arms. They are reinlisting because they feel the closeness of being a part of something with people they respect and trust. They are reinlisting because they were well mind fucked by a most efficient, mega-experienced mind fucking machine.

Once individuals have adopted the identity, values and ideals of a subculture, most choose not to leave. This is true with all subcultures ...even slaves.

Choosing to not end the feeling of closeness of shared experiences and trust as a part of their unit does not equate to success of the war.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[sv3n 0]

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no it's not working, nothing has changed - but to soothe the public, Petraeus gave a 'undefinable' view in his report, the President is backing it up (therefore supporting his troops)

The funny thing is that Patraeus's superior says the exact opposite of what he did......but Bush just chose to go with what he wanted to hear.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[rushmc 23]

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the 'perfect day' is a work of fiction, a dream if you will - much like the 'dream' of our government, and sadly, many other Americanstoo - that we are doing something good over there.

kill them there, sure - but who exactly? So far we have killed up to 1,000,000 civilians - at least more than 100,000. none of those were or are terrorists

most were just ordinary people, and I take serious offense that this is 'good for America'

If we had a target (i.e as we did in Afghanistan), then by all means go for it.

right now we are creating more terrorists than we are destroying.

kill them there, by all means, but I argue, as I did before, that we could do the same here, within our borders, at lesser costs, by enforcing the laws that we already have in place, and taking care of OURSELVES, not pouring money into some foreign war.

alas, the mistakes of the past will be recreated over and over again, with no resolve.

BS numbers and head in sand

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln