Social Healthcare?

[normiss 801]

Given to the fact that as many as 40% of working Americans have no health coverage I doubt those assumptions of reduction in coverage.

If my insurance company didn't employ 4 companies to review EVERY claim and try to show someone else responsible for the claim, they could reduce their costs significantly and make themselves somewhat more efficient for starters. This whole HMO mindset has increased costs and reduced coverage all on it's own merit.

[kallend 2,027]

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College: I signed a ROTC scholarship for a State University.

Well, there you have it. State Universities receive significant government subsidies. That's why tuition at U of Illinois is less than 1/3 of what it is at the private U. of Chicago or Northwestern U. You are a social leech after all.

The govt paid it, and I earned it thru my efforts. It's called a contract.

Would you say IIT shouldn't have their tax exemption? They're so eager to recruit ROTC students and their paid in full-tuition... it costs the US Govt less to pay for a Cadet at State U than IIT...

You can't weasel out of it. YOU received a tuition subsidy from the state's taxpayers in order to attend a state university. Your ROTC scholarship didn't offset that subsidy. Your heroic "efforts" and "sweat" were for your own benefit, not the university's or the state's taxpayers' benefit. It costs them the same whether you get straight "A"s or straight "D"s.

Sorry, you are a recipient of government handouts.

Do you teach students whose tuition is being paid by ROTC? If so: Pot, Kettle. Kettle, Pot.

Pay attention - this is not about your ROTC scholarship, this is about the state subsidy to your university.

I am not whining about poor children receiving taxpayer funded healthcare, YOU ARE.

Now it turns out that ExAFO himself received taxpayer subsidized education. I helped pay for your education!

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ExAFO 0]

Professor, you've changed tactics (rather slippery of you) so much on this thread, debating is moot.

Let me be succinct: To those who want to pick my pocket for their diaper-shitters to have NHS style health coverage: Fuck your kids. They're not my problem. I don't care if they get hit by a bus tomorrow. I will fight your efforts to make me pay for them so long in court, if they win, they'll be adults and not eligible for it.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[kallend 2,027]

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Professor, you've changed paradigms so much on this thread, debating is moot.

Let me be succinct: To those who want to pick my pocket for their diaper-shitters to have NHS style health coverage: Fuck your kids. They're not my problem. I don't care if they get hit by a bus tomorrow. I will fight your efforts to make me pay for them so long in court, if they win, they'll be adults and not eligible for it.

YOU picked MY pocket (and those of the other taxpayers of the state) to get a college education. You are not my kid, why should I have paid for you?

The hypocrisy is just incredible. You take, but are not prepared to give back when your turn comes.

PS did you not have diapers when you were a baby?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

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NOW we throw all government funding in one pot?

Nah. It's much easier for all the politicians in DC to focus on the current deficit, which always seem to sidestep long term obligations.

[kallend 2,027]

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NOW we throw all government funding in one pot?

Nah. It's much easier for all the politicians in DC to focus on the current deficit, which always seem to sidestep long term obligations.

Well, you have to fix one in order to fix the other.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pop 0]

Yes this has to do with what you sais. You said "Do you realy want to turn over your healthcare to someone who has consistently shown an inability to manage programs that involve a large portion of the population? "

My reply was "I'd rather turn it over to people who only care about my health when I dont have any prblems...since that's the only way they make money. I'd like to have corporations carrying about my health. They have proven to be so caring."

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[lawrocket 3]

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This whole HMO mindset has increased costs and reduced coverage all on it's own merit.

The whole health insurance mindset has increased costs and reduced coverage all on its own merit.

Fuck. What if we had fuel insurance? Every time you run out, pay your 5 dollar deductible and fill her up? The cost of gas insurance, and the cost of gasoline, would skyrocket. First, people would be buying far more gasoline than necessayr (they aren't paying full price, after all). The back office costs of billing the insurers for fuel would raise the price extensively. And everybody would want high octane while the insurers would want to pay for 87 octane.

And yet, everybody is all about "Insurance Insurance Insurance." Health insurance should be to cover every freaking band-aid, right?

We've all got car insurance that we don't want to use because our rates will go up. We dont' expect insurance to cover wear and tear, oil changes, gas, new tires, and we sure as hell don't expect insurance to pay for that new interior and fuzzy dice.

Yet, we have developed a national piglet on the national teat attitude about health insurance.

Here is how I've got MY insurance managed:

1. $3500 deductible. Hey, insurance is cheap that way.
2. HSA Account - tax deduction for that $3500 deductible and whatever ELSE I put into it!
3. Umbrella "Catastrophic" coverage for the big bad incident.

And I probably spend LESS on healthcare than most other people because I don't deal with co-pays, I don't deal with high monthly premiums because insurance isn't needed for most things.

AND - I NEGOTIATE a cash payment with doctors! I remember paying $20.00 in cash last year for a doctor visit after my son decided to take a fingernail to my cornea. Then another $30 for the yellow ink and light inspection and a free sample of meds.

$50.00. For what would have been billed to insurance as quite a bit more.

There are ways to handle things at low cost. CASH. And save insurance for the big stuff, which makes it pretty inexpensive.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[pop 0]

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free public schools,

Yep. Got my ass kicked all the time, too.

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got their via free roads

Actually, it WAS free, I guess, because I rode my bike every day.

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Were you also speaking out so loudly against free schooling when you were getting to educate yourselves paid by taxpayer money?

Nope. I was busy trying to defend myself. Then I became the bully.

p.s. - roads aren't free.

Niether are ass kickings

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[lawrocket 3]

Very true. Those ass-kickings they gave me came at a later price.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[normiss 801]

Do you consider yourself a believer of Marxism or methodological individualism?
I just don't understand how someone has such disregard for their fellow humans and soceity as a whole. I will grant you that there are a small percentage of our society (as with any nation on this planet) that abuse and take advantage of public assistance on many levels. But I think you're painting the issue with a much broader brush than is truly the case.

[NCclimber 0]

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Given to the fact that as many as 40% of working Americans have no health coverage I doubt those assumptions of reduction in coverage.

40% of working Americans have no health coverage?

Where'd you get that?

[kallend 2,027]

The percentage of people (workers and dependents) with employment-based health insurance has dropped from 70 percent in 1987 to 59.5 percent in 2005. This is the lowest level of employment-based insurance coverage in more than a decade (4, 5).
In 2005, nearly 15 percent of employees had no employer-sponsored health coverage available to them, either through their own job or through a family member (6).
In 2005, 27.4 million workers were uninsured because not all businesses offer health benefits, not all workers qualify for coverage and many employees cannot afford their share of the health insurance premium even when coverage is at their fingertips (1).
The number of uninsured children in 2005 was 8.3 million – or 11.2 percent of all children in the U.S. (1). The number of children who are uninsured increased by nearly 400,000 in 2005, breaking a trend of steady declines over the last five years.
Young adults (18-to-24 years old) remained the least likely of any age group to have health insurance in 2005 – 30.6 percent of this group did not have health insurance (1).
Based on a three year average (2003-2005), people of Hispanic origin were the least likely to have health insurance. An average of 32.6 percent of Hispanics were without health insurance during that period (1).
Nearly 40 percent of the uninsured population reside in households that earn $50,000 or more (1).

1. DeNavas-Walt, C.B. Proctor, and C.H. Lee. Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2005. U.S. Census Bureau., August 2006.

2. The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation. The Uninsured: A Primer, Key Facts About Americans without Health Insurance. October 2006
Families USA.

4. Employee Health Benefits: 2006 Annual Survey. 26 September 2006.
Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.

5. The Number of Uninsured Americans is at an All-Time High. 29 August 2006
Clemens-Cope, Lisa, et al,

6. Changes in Employees' Health Insurance Coverage, 2001-2005, Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured, October 2006.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

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I just don't understand how someone has such disregard for their fellow humans and soceity as a whole.

He doesn't disregard fellow humans. He, like me, is simply tired of being the ones who are throoughly disregarded.

Do things right in this world, and you are expected to carry the loads of those who do wrong. He. like me, is frankly sicka nd tired of being the one who must always worry about everyone else. I have my own family to take care of and myself to take care of.

Who the fuck takes care of me? I DO. Who takes care of my family? I DO. And yet, I am expected to take care of everyone else.

Why? Because I have already demonstrated that I am responsible. I had my first child when I was 31, not when I was 16. I got educated instead of partying. I got my kids insured right from the start. I paid my bills.

I went by the rules that society had in place and worked my way within that system to put myself where I am now. And what happens? I have $92k in student loans still outstanding because I invested in myself. I have employees to pay, etc. I did it all right.

And instead of a, "This guy did it right" it is that people like me have a disregard for others. Never mind the 4 full time employees that I am paying for and offering HEALTH INSURANCE. No, I do not do enough.

Now society should change its rules. I work to get ahead, putting partying and fucking aside me because I knew I couldn't afford that kid, and the rules are proposed that it shouldn't be my responsibility.

I shold have snorted that coke and smoked that meth and banged those chicks. Knock em up? Hell, no need to worry. Someone else can handle paying for them.

The person paying for them? It'll be the person who did the responsible thing. I'll just go ahead and pay for everyone else's insurance, too, while I'm at it.

I should be punished for doing it all right.

Tell me, why is it that you have such a callous disregard for people like me who actually want to provide the best for my kids? If you think my kids should not get the best I can do for them because other parents out there would rather not sacrifice what is necessary to give their kids the best, well, you can go to hell. Nobody is going to tell me that I should be giving to other kids instead of my own.

Where's the consideration for the breadwinners of society. Fucking NOWHERE. The consideration seems to be all for those who fuck up their lives and fuck up their kids, too. And I suppose I am a true reprobate for pointing out that kids should be the responsibility of the parent.

What an asshole I am. Inconsiderate and me, me, me. I want to take care of MY kids and nobody else's? How inconsiderate I am to those who want me to take care of their kids.

That's selflessness, right there - making others take care of your kids so you don't have to. That takes character. That's how we define compassion nowadays. It's something to which we should ALL strive.

Let someone else do it. If they don't, call them selfish misanthropes. What a wonderful world we live in.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,027]

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I just don't understand how someone has such disregard for their fellow humans and soceity as a whole.

He doesn't disregard fellow humans. He, like me, is simply tired of being the ones who are throoughly disregarded.

Do things right in this world, and you are expected to carry the loads of those who do wrong. He. like me, is frankly sicka nd tired of being the one who must always worry about everyone else. I have my own family to take care of and myself to take care of.

Who the fuck takes care of me? I DO. Who takes care of my family? I DO. And yet, I am expected to take care of everyone else.

Why? Because I have already demonstrated that I am responsible. I had my first child when I was 31, not when I was 16. I got educated instead of partying. I got my kids insured right from the start. I paid my bills.

I went by the rules that society had in place and worked my way within that system to put myself where I am now. And what happens? I have $92k in student loans still outstanding because I invested in myself. I have employees to pay, etc. I did it all right.

And instead of a, "This guy did it right" it is that people like me have a disregard for others. Never mind the 4 full time employees that I am paying for and offering HEALTH INSURANCE. No, I do not do enough.

Now society should change its rules. I work to get ahead, putting partying and fucking aside me because I knew I couldn't afford that kid, and the rules are proposed that it shouldn't be my responsibility.

I shold have snorted that coke and smoked that meth and banged those chicks. Knock em up? Hell, no need to worry. Someone else can handle paying for them.

The person paying for them? It'll be the person who did the responsible thing. I'll just go ahead and pay for everyone else's insurance, too, while I'm at it.

I should be punished for doing it all right.

Tell me, why is it that you have such a callous disregard for people like me who actually want to provide the best for my kids? If you think my kids should not get the best I can do for them because other parents out there would rather not sacrifice what is necessary to give their kids the best, well, you can go to hell. Nobody is going to tell me that I should be giving to other kids instead of my own.

Where's the consideration for the breadwinners of society. Fucking NOWHERE. The consideration seems to be all for those who fuck up their lives and fuck up their kids, too. And I suppose I am a true reprobate for pointing out that kids should be the responsibility of the parent.

What an asshole I am. Inconsiderate and me, me, me. I want to take care of MY kids and nobody else's? How inconsiderate I am to those who want me to take care of their kids.

That's selflessness, right there - making others take care of your kids so you don't have to. That takes character. That's how we define compassion nowadays. It's something to which we should ALL strive.

Let someone else do it. If they don't, call them selfish misanthropes. What a wonderful world we live in.

Funny, I had much the same experience as you, yet I feel that my modest financial success obliges me to be considerate of less fortunate people. I do not begrudge paying taxes if they go to help the less fortunate. I begrudge paying for defense contractors to make a killing (pun intended).

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

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In 2005, nearly 15 percent of employees had no employer-sponsored health coverage available to them, either through their own job or through a family member (6)

But see,

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The percentage of people (workers and dependents) with employment-based health insurance has dropped from 70 percent in 1987 to 59.5 percent in 2005. This is the lowest level of employment-based insurance coverage in more than a decade

So, in looking at these stats, we can analyze that a full 25 percent of people who have no health insurance CAN GET get health insurance through their employers or family mebers but CHOOSE NOT TO.

What do you want to bet they think the money could better be spent elsewhere.

Is this a fucking government problem? No. This indicates that the VAST MAJORITY OF THE PROBLEM COMES FROM PEOPLE MAKING IRRESPONSIBLE DECISIONS.


Issue: "But I am one of those unlucky 15 percent where my employer does not offer me insurance."
SOlution: "So find a job where your employer will appreciate you a little more."

Issue: "But I like my job."
Solution: "So get some insurance yourself! Check here and find a plan that's right for you. You and your family can be covered by Monday."

Issue: "But I can't afford health insurance with this huge mortgage.'
Solution: "You should have bought a smaller house. This was YOUR choice. Sell your house into something smaller."

Issue: "But I owe more on my hous than it's worth right now."
Solution: "Another example of fiscal irresponsibility. Do a short sale, get out from under it, and go from there. Or, bring in a renter. Do something so that you can afford it."

You know, it's not that hard.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Rookie120 0]

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But did YOUR parents pay the true cost of your education, or was some wealthier family actually subsidizing you from their taxes?

How the hell should I know? I was a kid in school. Do you want to me to break down exactly how much it cost for my school and how much they paid in taxes? Would that make you happy oh great one?

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Or possibly future generations will be paying for you, on account of the fact that we don't actually pay our way at all, but just borrow and borrow - more than $3Trillion during the Bush presidency alone.

And what do you think will change will all the welfare they are proposing? How do you think we are going to pay for all this? For all the stuff Hillary is coming up with it is going to rack up a hefty bill. But hey, It's for the children.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[normiss 801]

I second those feelings.
It also pays off in a long term investment in our nation. As much opposed to the "fuck you" attitude of those that desire to not contribute and aid.

Our impovershed population will indeed continue to grow, simply not flourish with any opportunities.

[normiss 801]

from the ones that TRULY need the help...it can be a tough call between food and insurance payments.

50k ain't a lot when you have kids...how do you know how they ended up in this situation?
divorce, death, layoffs, natural disasters...they all happen. Now if only the underpriveledge could all be the financial wizards that you require of them, we'd have a perfect situation. But we don't! How is that the fault of the children, the future of our country?

[kallend 2,027]

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***

You know, it's not that hard.

It's not hard for high achievers like you.

Not everyone is capable of getting into and through law school, you know. More than 50% of the US population has IQ under 100 (because the US average is not 100). Our society does not have high paying professions for people with IQ of 85 unless they have big boobs.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 801]

damn I wish I had big boobs.
I'd almost never have to leave the house.

[Rookie120 0]

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Our society does not have high paying professions for people with IQ of 85 unless they have big boobs.

So does your Dept pay for the implants or are they one of the pre-req's?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[lawrocket 3]

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It's not hard for high achievers like you.

Not everyone is capable of getting into and through law school, you know.

I am by no means a financial wizard myself. My wife is. But, I also know that it takes sacrifice to get ahead.

But there are too many who CHOOSE to leave kids uninsured so that THEY can drink beer. It does not take a 75 IQ to understand that.

You want to insure your family? If you are one of the 85% of employees in this country who can get health insurance, then get health insurance.

But a VERY LARGE NUMBER of people do not. Probably because they'd rather take their chances and do something else with the money. Those who do so should also bear the consequences.

Assisting them means that they have received all benefit and no cost. Should a responsible society allow that?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,027]

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It's not hard for high achievers like you.

Not everyone is capable of getting into and through law school, you know.

I am by no means a financial wizard myself. My wife is. But, I also know that it takes sacrifice to get ahead.

But there are too many who CHOOSE to leave kids uninsured so that THEY can drink beer. It does not take a 75 IQ to understand that.

?

How many people do you know with IQs of 75, and how do you know what they can and cannot understand? Have you been moonlighting as a special ed. teacher?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

I'm probably around more of them than you are. 75 percent of my business comes from idiots. Your line is business is to help the best and brightest.

My wife is hotter than your wife.