pop 0 #51 October 24, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Although I'm stuck in Ca. right now and can't get a CCW here I still carry concealed. Be a felony if I get caught.. Another "law abiding gun owner" One data point. I'd think that somewhere in your schooling, you'd have some idea of what represents a sufficient data set for making a conclusion. (hint: one person is insufficient). Your reply is a Fox News-worthy soundbite. Two data points are presented in Douva's argument (the two shooting incidents). I'd think that somewhere in your schooling, you'd have some idea of what represents a sufficient data set for making a conclusion. (hint: two school is insufficient). Your reply is a Fox News-worthy soundbite.7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #52 October 24, 2007 QuoteBad guys getting illegal guns is pretty much the only argument you guys pose for legal gun ownership, but when a 4 year old kid acidentally blows his brains out with a legal gun, guns no longer sound like such a great idea. I grew up in a household with numerous guns...I was taught from an early age on how to handle them . They were never locked up and we did not touch the guns. My Kid grew up in a house with numerous guns...Most were locked away except for the one I carry.....he also started shooting when he was 5 and went hunting for the first time for big game at age 12( Its a family thing) Responsible gun owners teach responsibility from an early age. He never misused the guns Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #53 October 24, 2007 QuoteQuoteBad guys getting illegal guns is pretty much the only argument you guys pose for legal gun ownership, but when a 4 year old kid acidentally blows his brains out with a legal gun, guns no longer sound like such a great idea. I grew up in a household with numerous guns...I was taught from an early age on how to handle them . They were never locked up and we did not touch the guns. My Kid grew up in a house with numerous guns...Most were locked away except for the one I carry.....he also started shooting when he was 5 and went hunting for the first time for big game at age 12( Its a family thing) Responsible gun owners teach responsibility from an early age. He never misused the guns I hear you on that; the only thing is we can’t look at this issue from an individual perspective. Yes, your family was responsible, but that doesn’t mean that ALL families are responsible...even if they play by the law book, and do everything legally. We do not make laws for individuals, but for the masses. And when you look at the mass you see accidental death over and over and over….much of which is with legal guns. Guns are made to kill. Bad guys will kill regardless of whether they have guns or not, and if the guns are legal or not…but accidents can be prevented.7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 800 #54 October 24, 2007 Which changes my statement how? You're inferring that all 10,000 cases were necissitated use of a weapon???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #55 October 24, 2007 QuoteQuoteJust because we have them does not necessitate our using them! Over 10,000+ Americans die every year due to the use of some sort of firearm in many different circumstances. Don't fool yourself, people use them to kill other people. That is their purpose. To kill. But figure those 10,000 were commited by perhaps 5000 guns, meanwhile 250M other guns did nothing. Compare that to the criminal rates of the 250M humans in the country. A lot more than 5000 bad ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 800 #56 October 24, 2007 So to extrapolate on that way of thinking... we should eliminate all credit information. oh and cars, baseball bats, scissors, skydiving too (it's killed more people than guns on campus you know), kitchen knives, fireworks, aircraft, horses, fireplaces, oh! matches too..... Gimme a few, I'm still thinking of the accepted risks in life. Just my opinion mind you... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #57 October 24, 2007 QuoteQuoteSo back to my point about responsible gun ownership. Apparently it isn't possible in your world. What planet do you live on? Not every legal gun owner is responsible. Look at Akarunaway. He just said he carries his legal gun illegally Self defense may be illegal in California, but it's not irresponsible. I have no issue with a person in the state choosing to carry a gun if they feel they need it. Provided they don't go on to commit a crime (with or without showing the gun), I wouldn't convict someone for it. Talk about tragic irony - a couple years back a SF judge got a rare CCW permits (I think the city total is 12 now) after a witness was killed. Americans do have a right to self defense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #58 October 24, 2007 I haven't read any of the posts in this thread, since I honestly don't have the energy to get caught up in this debate on yet another front, so please excuse me if this link has already been posted. Fox News article on the Empty Holster Protest: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304806,00.htmlI don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #59 October 24, 2007 QuoteEver consider how many accidental deaths from legal guns we have every year. I am sure I dont need to go digging for stats since this is a common occurence. So you jump to a conclusion without bothering to learn the facts... Yeahhh..., that demonstrates objectivity. QuoteNahhh...accidents, or murder using legal guns would never happen once we give the go ahead for college students to carry legal guns on campus. In the 24 years between 1966 and 1990, prior to the gun-free school zone law, there were eight school shootings. In the 17 years since 1990 when guns were been banned on school property, there have been 23 school shootings. Does this lead you to believe that school gun bans are effective? Actually, since nuts with guns know that they can kill as many people as they want, without being opposed, gun free school zones draw them like bees to honey. Thus, is the law of unintended consequences. As for accidents, sure there's bound to be a few. The question is, which is worse; a few school gun accidents, or a few mass school murders. It sounds like you prefer to preserve the current status quo of mass murders. I suppose you are also in favor of airline pilots being unarmed so that they can't oppose terrorists trying to hijack their planes? After all, with all those pilots carrying guns, there are bound to be a few accidents, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #60 October 24, 2007 QuoteSo to extrapolate on that way of thinking... we should eliminate all credit information. oh and cars, baseball bats, scissors, skydiving too (it's killed more people than guns on campus you know), kitchen knives, fireworks, aircraft, horses, fireplaces, oh! matches too..... Gimme a few, I'm still thinking of the accepted risks in life. Just my opinion mind you... I knew someone was going to say that. All the things you named have a purpose outside of kiling. A gun's only purpose is to kill.7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #61 October 24, 2007 Quote A gun's only purpose is to kill. Oh, crap, here we go again. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #62 October 24, 2007 QuoteA gun's only purpose is to kill. That one short little sentence, all by itself, tells me that you know nothing at all about guns. And therefore, your arguments bear little credibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #63 October 24, 2007 QuoteQuoteA gun's only purpose is to kill. That one short little sentence, all by itself, tells me that you know nothing at all about guns. And therefore, your arguments bear little credibility. Whatever you say buddy.7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #64 October 24, 2007 Quote Fox News article on the Empty Holster Protest: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304806,00.html "A group of 12 students chose to wear empty holsters to class this week at the University of Idaho as part of the nationwide protest." Ooooh - that's 0.109% of the enrollment there. Major protest. "Aled Baker, a junior, said he loses his constitutional right to protect himself and others when he steps on campus." Which article of the Constitution gives the right to protect others when on someone else's property? Just curious.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #65 October 24, 2007 QuoteAled Baker, a junior, said he loses his constitutional right to protect himself and others when he steps on campus." Isn't he free to go to another school? Or free not to go to school at all. I know of multiple scenarios where people give up their constitutional rights of their own free will. Shouldn't really be whining about it afterwards. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #66 October 24, 2007 QuoteA gun's only purpose is to kill. Even if that is true...so what?Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #67 October 24, 2007 "During the week of October 22-26, participating students and faculty at over 110 colleges and universities throughout America will wear empty holsters on campus." There are 4216 colleges and universities in the USA. 110 are having a protest. That's around 2.6%. The university mentioned in the FoxNews piece had around 0.1% student participation rate. Which suggests that more than 99.995% of college students care a rat's ass about the issue.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #68 October 24, 2007 Quote You are right...I am wrong...deadly accidents with legal guns would never happen on campus. They'll happen (.6% of all accidental fatalities in the US involve firearms) but far less often than accidents on the campus streets (39% of accidental fatalities come from motor vehicles)), chemistry lab (18% are poisonings), or swimming pools (2.9% are drownings). Banning cars on campus and closing the school pool will do more to prevent fatalities than banning guns and should therefore happen first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #69 October 24, 2007 Quote"During the week of October 22-26, participating students and faculty at over 110 colleges and universities throughout America will wear empty holsters on campus." There are 4216 colleges and universities in the USA. 110 are having a protest. That's around 2.6%. The university mentioned in the FoxNews piece had around 0.1% student participation rate. Which suggests that more than 99.995% of college students care a rat's ass about the issue. That's true of most issues. Even at Berkeley, only a small number give a rat's ass about the war, affirmative action, about X. Most are far more concerned with midterms, paying the bills, and geting laid. It's a nice visible demonstration that hurts no one, so seems petty to try to demean it. It's certainly more respectable than the attitude (espoused by Brady fucks and by one poster here) that students can choose to be dropouts instead. I'm sure there will be shrill responses from people who are terrified by the holsters and will view it as a threat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #70 October 24, 2007 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can you imagine this on a college campus where this happens every day. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No I honestly cannot. Of course not..you live in a perfect world. I dont. Accidental gun shootings happen quite often. Mix in college drunken parties, cheating girfriends/boyfriends, fraternity show off jocks, football games gone wrong, pissed off asian nerds who get a B on their exam, and legal guns make all the perfect sense. Accidental shootings? I have heard of ND, but accidental shootings are a myth perpetuated by a biased media. How can a firearm accidently discharge just sitting there all alone minding it's own business. If it fired there was a human being handling it. That is a ND resulting in a shooting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #71 October 24, 2007 QuoteBad guys getting illegal guns is pretty much the only argument you guys pose for legal gun ownership, but when a 4 year old kid acidentally blows his brains out with a legal gun, guns no longer sound like such a great idea. Besides most of the time pulling out a legal gun, when another gun is pointed at you only escalates the situation, rather then prevent it, or deal with it. If you think you need a gun to be a man, or to protect yourself, I hope your kid doesnt blow his head off accidentally for your belief. Edted to say: I had guns in the house until there were kids in the house.....the no more. No matter how you lock it up, or hide...kids figure out a way to get to them. Its dumb. Geez I always thought proper training and supervision of children along with securing firearms was the answer. So you have to get them out of your house? That is news to me, my parents raised seven children with firearms in the house and when the youngest was ten years of age there were loaded firearms in the house. Nobody every touched them without permission, or neccessity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #72 October 24, 2007 Quote Quote Bad guys getting illegal guns is pretty much the only argument you guys pose for legal gun ownership, but when a 4 year old kid acidentally blows his brains out with a legal gun, guns no longer sound like such a great idea. Outside of BYU, how many schools see a lot of students with 4 year olds? Again, your accidental shooting thing is a red herring, irrelevent to the conversation. BTW, instead of pretending they didn't exist, adults in my childhood showed me how to shoot guns. And to respect them. That ole parenting thing. Do you see what you are being told? That your parents and mine were BAD parents for teaching us to respect firearms and handle them in a safe manner.Oh I bet they wish they had the chance to turn our parents in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #73 October 24, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteBad guys getting illegal guns is pretty much the only argument you guys pose for legal gun ownership, but when a 4 year old kid acidentally blows his brains out with a legal gun, guns no longer sound like such a great idea. Outside of BYU, how many schools see a lot of students with 4 year olds? Again, your accidental shooting thing is a red herring, irrelevent to the conversation. BTW, instead of pretending they didn't exist, adults in my childhood showed me how to shoot guns. And to respect them. That ole parenting thing. You are right...I am wrong...deadly accidents with legal guns would never happen on campus. Accidents with firearms does not occur, negligence and unfamiliarity do cause unintentional shootings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #74 October 24, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteBad guys getting illegal guns is pretty much the only argument you guys pose for legal gun ownership, but when a 4 year old kid acidentally blows his brains out with a legal gun, guns no longer sound like such a great idea. I grew up in a household with numerous guns...I was taught from an early age on how to handle them . They were never locked up and we did not touch the guns. My Kid grew up in a house with numerous guns...Most were locked away except for the one I carry.....he also started shooting when he was 5 and went hunting for the first time for big game at age 12( Its a family thing) Responsible gun owners teach responsibility from an early age. He never misused the guns I hear you on that; the only thing is we can’t look at this issue from an individual perspective. Yes, your family was responsible, but that doesn’t mean that ALL families are responsible...even if they play by the law book, and do everything legally. We do not make laws for individuals, but for the masses. And when you look at the mass you see accidental death over and over and over….much of which is with legal guns. Guns are made to kill. Bad guys will kill regardless of whether they have guns or not, and if the guns are legal or not…but accidents can be prevented. No, guns are made to fire bullets, people decide to kill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #75 October 24, 2007 Quote Nice piece, well written. I do not agree that thousands of armed but untrained 18-22 year olds on college campuses is a wonderful idea, though. I do not think the 18-22 year old population can be compared with the CCW population as a whole, which is rather more mature. How about older, more mature, college professors? It would've been nice if a few of them had been able to shoot back in the Virginia Tech incident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
