My Article in The Washington Times (Guns)

[mnealtx 0]

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Agreed - but you HAVE heard of pilot error or mechanical failure.

His point (which I agree with) is that, barring mechanical failures (which I've never heard of any instances of) all the accidental shootings are 'pilot error'.... NEGLIGENT discharges, which is MUCH different than ACCIDENTAL discharges.

I am not getting your point. Are you saying that humans can't have accidents, only things can have accidents?

No Sir, I am not - let me try to explain my analogy.

[hypothetical]If you are taking off from O'Hare, and you pitch your Mooney up to a 60 degree climb while simultaneously pulling the throttle back to idle - would the FAA call the mishap pilot ERROR or pilot ACCIDENT?[/hypothetical]

The point is that, failing a mechanical problem with the weapon (which, again, I have never heard an example of during a shooting), it is the HUMAN that decides to cause the weapon to fire.

That, Sir, is not ACCIDENTAL...that is NEGLIGENT.

Hopefully I've made my point clear.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,026]

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Agreed - but you HAVE heard of pilot error or mechanical failure.

His point (which I agree with) is that, barring mechanical failures (which I've never heard of any instances of) all the accidental shootings are 'pilot error'.... NEGLIGENT discharges, which is MUCH different than ACCIDENTAL discharges.

I am not getting your point. Are you saying that humans can't have accidents, only things can have accidents?

No Sir, I am not - let me try to explain my analogy.

[hypothetical]If you are taking off from O'Hare, and you pitch your Mooney up to a 60 degree climb while simultaneously pulling the throttle back to idle - would the FAA call the mishap pilot ERROR or pilot ACCIDENT?[/hypothetical]

The point is that, failing a mechanical problem with the weapon (which, again, I have never heard an example of during a shooting), it is the HUMAN that decides to cause the weapon to fire.

That, Sir, is not ACCIDENTAL...that is NEGLIGENT.

Hopefully I've made my point clear.

Well, it would go into the FAA's accident database. However, I'm not going to do an "NCclimber" and nitpick the issue to death.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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[hypothetical]If you are taking off from O'Hare, and you pitch your Mooney up to a 60 degree climb while simultaneously pulling the throttle back to idle - would the FAA call the mishap pilot ERROR or pilot ACCIDENT?[/hypothetical]

In that case it would be an accident due to pilot error. (assuming suicide is ruled out)

Sounds like it comes down to a bit of semantics argument.

I seem to remember a story where a pet pushed a gun of a table or ledge at which point to the gun discharged.

We could argue that leaving the gun loaded on a table would be negligent behaviour. IMHO the discharge would be accidental.

Edited to add: In the end it is a word game, with those in favour of guns prefering negilgent over accident to show that some form of interaction is needed and therefor guns are intrinsicly safe.

[livendive 8]

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Therefore, the fact that said 18-22 year olds are willing to go through the classes and training and other hassles to secure a CCW license and accept the responsibility of carrying a weapon DOES make them comparable in maturity (for this purpose) as an older CCW holder.

You're saying the average 22 year old CCW holder is as mature as the average 40 year old CCW holder?

I agree that the 18-22 year old should have the option of obtaining a CCW, but I do not think those classes have any magical effect on their social maturity level. And the act of carrying certainly doesn't impart wisdom, so I guess we'll just have to disagree on this part.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[1969912 0]

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Ban the bicycles, accidental deaths are killing all the children!!!

Yeah so called "accidental deaths" are oh so common.

Once again the great lie is exposed.

How the hell could 15 babies between 0-4 yrs old get killed by gun accidents? Unbelievable.


What about Washington D.C.? Highest murder rate in US. 5-6 times the US avg. Twice as high as next highest state, LA. (The above applies to both gun murder and non-gun murder). WTF?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[mnealtx 0]

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[hypothetical]If you are taking off from O'Hare, and you pitch your Mooney up to a 60 degree climb while simultaneously pulling the throttle back to idle - would the FAA call the mishap pilot ERROR or pilot ACCIDENT?[/hypothetical]

In that case it would be an accident due to pilot error. (assuming suicide is ruled out)

Sounds like it comes down to a bit of semantics argument.

I seem to remember a story where a pet pushed a gun of a table or ledge at which point to the gun discharged.

We could argue that leaving the gun loaded on a table would be negligent behaviour. IMHO the discharge would be accidental.

Edited to add: In the end it is a word game, with those in favour of guns prefering negilgent over accident to show that some form of interaction is needed and therefor guns are intrinsicly safe.

Sometimes, I think the good Professor deliberately misunderstands a point just for the fun of it.... @ JK

I think you understood what I meant, though - and yes, in a sense it *IS* a word game, but one that ends up being important. The more the media can speak of "accidental shootings", the more they can get the public (who will sit on juries during damage trials) thinking that guns are somehow defective ("look at how many times a year people get shot when the gun just goes off all by itself!!").

Fluffy knocking the loaded pistol off the table and it going off would be an ACCIDENTAL discharge and also a mechanical failure - there is a "drop test" that states that a weapon has to withstand a fall from a certain height without discharging. At the moment, I can't recall if that is a federal law, but it is certainly an industry standard, as they can't sell to police departments if the weapon doesn't pass.

The circumstances of the weapon being left on the table COULD be negligent...but is subject to a lot of variables.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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Therefore, the fact that said 18-22 year olds are willing to go through the classes and training and other hassles to secure a CCW license and accept the responsibility of carrying a weapon DOES make them comparable in maturity (for this purpose) as an older CCW holder.

You're saying the average 22 year old CCW holder is as mature as the average 40 year old CCW holder?

I agree that the 18-22 year old should have the option of obtaining a CCW, but I do not think those classes have any magical effect on their social maturity level. And the act of carrying certainly doesn't impart wisdom, so I guess we'll just have to disagree on this part.

Blues,
Dave

I *DID* say "for this purpose" and I *do* believe that an 18-22 year old CCW holder is going to (generally) be more mature than his age-mates.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,026]

Some years ago (at least 20, maybe 25) we were involved in a lawsuit (in that they used our lab to do the testing) that involved a gun that had been modified by a previous owner, and had discharged unexpectedly, killing the current owner. It's a long time ago so I may remember incorrectly, but I believe the modification involved nickel plating some of the parts. It turned out the modification had significantly changed the force needed to fire the gun.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,026]

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Therefore, the fact that said 18-22 year olds are willing to go through the classes and training and other hassles to secure a CCW license and accept the responsibility of carrying a weapon DOES make them comparable in maturity (for this purpose) as an older CCW holder.

You're saying the average 22 year old CCW holder is as mature as the average 40 year old CCW holder?

I agree that the 18-22 year old should have the option of obtaining a CCW, but I do not think those classes have any magical effect on their social maturity level. And the act of carrying certainly doesn't impart wisdom, so I guess we'll just have to disagree on this part.

Blues,
Dave

I *DID* say "for this purpose" and I *do* believe that an 18-22 year old CCW holder is going to (generally) be more mature than his age-mates.

So are ROTC students, but we still get a lot of maturity related disiplinary problems from them in our units (mostly involving alcohol).

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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So are ROTC students, but we still get a lot of maturity related disiplinary problems from them in our units (mostly involving alcohol).

Again, I don't disagree that there will be outliers... I'm speaking in a general sense and also from personal experience.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

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A gun's only purpose is to kill.

Really? Mine must be broken then... they've only shot paper and a few tin cans.

Correction, you've 'killed' paper and a few tin cans

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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And I've never heard an instance where a plane started its engine(s), took off and crashed all by itself.

you need to read more Stephen King

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I *DID* say "for this purpose" and I *do* believe that an 18-22 year old CCW holder is going to (generally) be more mature than his age-mates.

I think that's wrong. He'll be better "trained" on responsible gun use that his nonCCW age-mates. But you can't delete the fact that he's still only 18-20.

However, someone raised in a gun friendly environment that respects guns and has used them (like many of us) are certainly more mature (about this subject) than those that have never been around them and have been indoctrinated to fear them.

Kids from when I grew up would own guns, and, at 19-20, when jealous or pissed off, would never even consider going to get the gun, they'd get into a fist fight, instead.

Some feminized urban kid/punk, indoctrinated in the guns are bad philosophy, likely would run off and get the scary, unfamiliar gun and shoot someone. It would be a fit, and they'd likely be in denial that this unfamiliar thing could 'really' hurt someone until they see it. People kill and hurt with things they are unfamiliar with, exotic.

I'm a big believer that anyone that is scared to death of an object, probably shouldn't get one. Anti gunners are afraid of what THEY'D do if they had a gun - I'm glad to see they acknowledge their immaturity on the issue. They cross the line when they presume to judge others to be just as bad. But that's normal for self centered children.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mnealtx 0]

Been reading Dr. Thompson, perchance?

I agree with your points, though.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

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Been reading Dr. Thompson, perchance?

never heard of him/her

but send a link, he obviously must be a rational and excellent thinker with clear delivery and a pleasant scent

(the anti-gunners have been slowly creating the world they've feared all along. it's a bit scary

AND - someone will protest those students for wearing the empty holsters - that holsters are a threat, or 'hate crime' - guaranteed)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[nigel99 471]

I hadn't ever heard of ND before. This is a propaganda war playing out in the states. I don't know where the saying originates but it is a defence mechanism. I believe any logical person understands that an Accidental Discharge is caused in most cases by a human.

It is akin to automotive companies trying to fight the case that all car accidents are ND (negligent driving) because car accident implies a defective vehicle.

Guns are designed to fire a projectile at potentially lethal velocities and accidents will always happen. I personally know of the following incidents involving direct friends & family. (Alright I grew up in a war zone and hunting environment so guns were pervasive)

1) Previous boss was shot in the back of the head through a radio pack by someone cleaning a weapon that loaded (he lived with the bullet lodged next to his spinal cord)

2) Teenage friend left a .22 caliber loaded and his mom shot a hole in the roof when tidying his bedroom.

3) Another teenage friend was carrying his dads new 308 to put back in the gun safe without realising that while they had been "admiring it" a round had been loaded - shot an impressive hole in the wall!

4) Shotgun left on a neighbours bed was loaded and their dog climbed onto it and the weapon discharged.

All of the above were accidents with no long term consequences and I am sure Africa is not unique and that similar events happen in the US. BTW I think guns can be fun toys but that they should treated with respect - some people are to stupid to do this by themselves so we need laws.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[mnealtx 0]

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never heard of him/her

but send a link, he obviously must be a rational and excellent thinker with clear delivery and a pleasant scent

Pleasant scent? Bill, you're killing me!!!

Search "Raging Against Self Defense"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[btvr 0]

The reason that these babies and accidents happen is due to the morons that do not use common sense! It's a safety issue. Just like people who don't check their skydiving gear and suffer for it. If guns are to be in a house where children are.. They should never be loaded and locked in a gun safe. My guns are never loaded until I get to the range and ready to shoot. At home, they are locked in a gun safe and the ammunition is also locked in a separate location of the house.
Believe it or not... Law abiding gun owners hate to hear about those accidental shootings just as much if not more as gun controllers because we are the ones who have to defend our position when public outcry gets so bad.
Too bad there wasn't a way to test someone's common sense before hand. If someone fails, tell them:
"Sorry dude... you failed the test and are a moron. Therefore we can't let you have a gun." They should do that for cars too!

[mnealtx 0]

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I hadn't ever heard of ND before. This is a propaganda war playing out in the states. I don't know where the saying originates but it is a defence mechanism. I believe any logical person understands that an Accidental Discharge is caused in most cases by a human.

You'd be amazed at the distortion that jumps into any story where guns are involved

It is akin to automotive companies trying to fight the case that all car accidents are ND (negligent driving) because car accident implies a defective vehicle.

In a manner, yes - but there's not been any incidents (excluding the Prof's example, which I haven't found yet) where there has been a defective gun causing an accidental discharge.

Guns are designed to fire a projectile at potentially lethal velocities and accidents will always happen. I personally know of the following incidents involving direct friends & family. (Alright I grew up in a war zone and hunting environment so guns were pervasive)

1) Previous boss was shot in the back of the head through a radio pack by someone cleaning a weapon that loaded (he lived with the bullet lodged next to his spinal cord) Negligent

2) Teenage friend left a .22 caliber loaded and his mom shot a hole in the roof when tidying his bedroom. Negligent

3) Another teenage friend was carrying his dads new 308 to put back in the gun safe without realising that while they had been "admiring it" a round had been loaded - shot an impressive hole in the wall! Negligent

4) Shotgun left on a neighbours bed was loaded and their dog climbed onto it and the weapon discharged. Negligent

All of the above were accidents with no long term consequences and I am sure Africa is not unique and that similar events happen in the US. BTW I think guns can be fun toys but that they should treated with respect - some people are to stupid to do this by themselves so we need laws.

See my replies interspersed above - none of your examples are accidents except in the sense they didn't happen deliberately... ALL are due to negligence on the part of the owner/handler.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[btvr 0]

GOOD POINT!

[nigel99 471]

Hi Mike,

You missed my point. It is precisely that 99% of car accidents are NEGLIGENT driving(BTW I am using 99% to mean most in case anyone asks for sources/statics) All of the examples that I gave you of gun accidents were negligence.

It may be that people distort stories when guns are involved (funny seems we feel the same about skydiving
I would say that the gun lobby loses credibility when it starts playing word games. Calling gun accidents "accidents" does not imply the weapon was faulty any more than a car accident implies that the vehicle was faulty. How many car accidents do you hear of where it was a vehicle fault - I would guess very few if any?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[mnealtx 0]

I evidently did miss your point, I apologize.

My point is that the media distorts the facts and plants the seed in the minds of the public that the guns are somehow faulty. Responsible gun owners need to fight that meme by showing that the 'accidents' are due to negligence.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[bch7773 0]

kallend, how old are many of our soldiers who carry guns?

due to maturity issues, should we not accept soliders under 22?

MB 3528, RB 1182

[warpedskydiver 0]

Bullshit.

Please post the findings of the investigation, reduced force to fire is no accident, someone had to squeeze a trigger.

Unless you are speaking of the brown bess you carried as a lad.

[1969912 0]

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The reason that these babies and accidents happen is due to the morons that do not use common sense! It's a safety issue. Just like people who don't check their skydiving gear and suffer for it. If guns are to be in a house where children are.. They should never be loaded and locked in a gun safe. My guns are never loaded until I get to the range and ready to shoot. At home, they are locked in a gun safe and the ammunition is also locked in a separate location of the house.
Believe it or not... Law abiding gun owners hate to hear about those accidental shootings just as much if not more as gun controllers because we are the ones who have to defend our position when public outcry gets so bad.
Too bad there wasn't a way to test someone's common sense before hand. If someone fails, tell them:
"Sorry dude... you failed the test and are a moron. Therefore we can't let you have a gun." They should do that for cars too!

It was just surprising, epecially when only 13 age 5-9 were killed in accidents. The database doesn't have any info about how the accidents happened. I assume a 4 yo could operate a gun if some idiot left it laying around, but I don't know about younger kids.

I looked at data for 2000-2004 combined for age 0-6:

Age # 2000-2004 totals

0 3
1 4
2 13
3 27
4 21
5 13
6 13 After age 6 the number stays below 20 until age 11

The numbers really jump up at age 3, so maybe a 3 yo can do it, plus that might be the age where they really start getting into things, but why the drop to less than 20 from age 5 to age 11? Anyway, I can't believe some people are such idiots.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG