My Article in The Washington Times (Guns)

[kallend 2,026]

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kallend, how old are many of our soldiers who carry guns?

due to maturity issues, should we not accept soliders under 22?

There are very different cultures in the military service than in colleges.

There are very different levels of control and discipline in the military service than in colleges.

We don't have gunnery sergeants to keep student in line.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[livendive 8]

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Some years ago (at least 20, maybe 25) we were involved in a lawsuit (in that they used our lab to do the testing) that involved a gun that had been modified by a previous owner, and had discharged unexpectedly, killing the current owner. It's a long time ago so I may remember incorrectly, but I believe the modification involved nickel plating some of the parts. It turned out the modification had significantly changed the force needed to fire the gun.

Bullshit.

Please post the findings of the investigation, reduced force to fire is no accident, someone had to squeeze a trigger.

Admit it, you just want to argue with anything he says.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[JohnRich 4]

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Some years ago (at least 20, maybe 25) we were involved in a lawsuit (in that they used our lab to do the testing) that involved a gun that had been modified by a previous owner, and had discharged unexpectedly, killing the current owner. It's a long time ago so I may remember incorrectly, but I believe the modification involved nickel plating some of the parts. It turned out the modification had significantly changed the force needed to fire the gun.

Bullshit.

Please post the findings of the investigation, reduced force to fire is no accident, someone had to squeeze a trigger.

Admit it, you just want to argue with anything he says.

He has a good point for that argument.

Regardless of how much the pull force had been reduced by nickel plating some parts, he still had to point a loaded gun at someone while touching the trigger. So regardless of the pull force, he was still grossly negligent in his handling of the firearm.

[livendive 8]

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Some years ago (at least 20, maybe 25) we were involved in a lawsuit (in that they used our lab to do the testing) that involved a gun that had been modified by a previous owner, and had discharged unexpectedly, killing the current owner. It's a long time ago so I may remember incorrectly, but I believe the modification involved nickel plating some of the parts. It turned out the modification had significantly changed the force needed to fire the gun.

Bullshit.

Please post the findings of the investigation, reduced force to fire is no accident, someone had to squeeze a trigger.

Admit it, you just want to argue with anything he says.

He has a good point for that argument.

Regardless of how much the pull force had been reduced by nickel plating some parts, he still had to point a loaded gun at someone while touching the trigger. So regardless of the pull force, he was still grossly negligent in his handling of the firearm.

True. Which part of John's post is contradicted by your or warpedskydiver's post?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Bullshit.

Please post the findings of the investigation, reduced force to fire is no accident, someone had to squeeze a trigger.

Where in my previous statement am I not clear enough for you to understand?

I guess one sentence is too hard to understand, so you want an entire essay on the matter?

Do you just believe what you are told without actually researching the matter, or actually having knowledge of your own on a topic?

I find it quite peculiar a PHYSICS professor is of the opinion that the gun "just went off" due to reduced trigger pull via a nickel plating.

I do not care if it was silicon nickel, if the firearm discharged someone was touching a trigger.

Do not think for yourself, you can just be told things and believe them as if they are true.

Were the parts nickel plated just to be more Ghetto or Gangsta?

I will give you a hint SOMEONE WAS TOUCHING THE TRIGGER

I abhor people who do not observe trigger discipline, they are NEGLIGENT and a THREAT to SAFETY.

[warpedskydiver 0]

I am starting to think you are of the opinion that I am always wrong due to your own bias.

I have noticed a very discernable trend in some people around here to discount what I say as rubbish or being untrue, and yet when it is repeated by another poster, it is suddenly new and enlightening.

Grow up, or at least read before you opine.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Furthermore, between John Rich, Mike Neal and myself there is around 120years of firearms knowledge, and or expertise.(plus or minus some years)probably plus.

I guess a professor without that background is just more valid in your eyes.

[livendive 8]

My replies are in red below.

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Bullshit.

Please post the findings of the investigation, reduced force to fire is no accident, someone had to squeeze a trigger.

Where in my previous statement am I not clear enough for you to understand?
Nowhere. I didn't say I didn't understand.

I guess one sentence is too hard to understand, so you want an entire essay on the matter?
No. I asked you to simply admit that you like to argue with anything John posts. One sentence would have sufficed.

Do you just believe what you are told without actually researching the matter, or actually having knowledge of your own on a topic?
I assume some things I am told are correct, as, I suspect, do you. If I tell you I'm intermittently eating leftover beef stew while typing this, will you believe me or do some research into the matter?

I find it quite peculiar a PHYSICS professor is of the opinion that the gun "just went off" due to reduced trigger pull via a nickel plating.
I can guess why you thought you needed to emphasize the word "physics" by capitalizing each letter, but I haven't a clue why you thought quotation marks were needed around the words "just went off". It certainly wasn't because that's a quote, as the post to which you were replying didn't include that phrase. It wasn't a paraphrase either. As far as I can tell, the only way you can attribute those words to the PHYSICS professor is to first put them in his mouth.

I do not care if it was silicon nickel, if the firearm discharged someone was touching a trigger.
A force was certainly acting on the trigger, and John's post said nothing to the contrary. He merely said it took reduced force.

Do not think for yourself, you can just be told things and believe them as if they are true.
I'm not sure what the relevance of this suggestion is, but you'll have to forgive me if I don't find it particularly compelling

Were the parts nickel plated just to be more Ghetto or Gangsta?
I haven't a clue and don't really care.

I will give you a hint SOMEONE WAS TOUCHING THE TRIGGER
Where did I say anything to the contrary? Just for the sake of argument though, if I dropped a loaded, cocked pistol with a hair-trigger 1000 times, how many times do you think it would discharge upon impact with the ground?

I abhor people who do not observe trigger discipline, they are NEGLIGENT and a THREAT to SAFETY.
Yet more capitalization, apparently emphasizing a point on which we have no disagreement

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[normiss 798]

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I think guns can be fun toys

Here lies the beginning of problems with guns and people's perspective of those that own them.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Some years ago (at least 20, maybe 25) we were involved in a lawsuit (in that they used our lab to do the testing) that involved a gun that had been modified by a previous owner, and had discharged unexpectedly, killing the current owner. It's a long time ago so I may remember incorrectly, but I believe the modification involved nickel plating some of the parts. It turned out the modification had significantly changed the force needed to fire the gun.

That was no accident, but rather negligence.

Unexpectedly went off?

How do you not expect a firearm to discharge once you apply pressure to the trigger?

If you grab your hackeysack and the pilot chute deploys "unexpectedly" did it just do it all on it's own?

NO it was done negligently

[livendive 8]

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I am starting to think you are of the opinion that I am always wrong due to your own bias.
. . .
Grow up, or at least read before you opine.

To which bias of mine are you referring? I would posit that my participation in this discussion is precisely because I read the actual words in John's post rather than fabricating and attributing words to him solely for the sake of argument.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[warpedskydiver 0]

Read my post above.

Maybe you disagree with my choice of words but I did not say I was quoting John verbatim.

pick away all you want, it does not change the fact that firearms do not accidently discharge.

That was the topic of my discussion.

[livendive 8]

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Furthermore, between John Rich, Mike Neal and myself there is around 120years of firearms knowledge, and or expertise.(plus or minus some years)probably plus.

I guess a professor without that background is just more valid in your eyes.

Go back and read the words in John's post without assuming they mean anything other than what they say. If he says his lab was hired to study a modified gun that factored into an accidental death, I'm inclined to believe him. Is that the part that you say was "Bullshit"? He said he believed the modification involved nickel plating, but he could be remembering incorrectly. Is that the part that you say was "Bullshit"? Regardless of what the modification was, the result of the study was that the modification had significantly reduced the force needed to fire the gun. Is that the part that you say was "Bullshit"? Of the 120 years of firearms "knowledge" that you, JohnRich, and Mike Neal have accumlated, which one(s) taught you that a gun can't be modified in such a way that the trigger pressure is reduced? Because the last time I had such a discussion (3 days ago, while playing with a friend's AR-15) it wasn't a question of possibility, but rather how much the various modifications cost.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[warpedskydiver 0]

Reducing trigger pull force, creep, and letoff is not something that costs money.

That is unless you pay someone else to do the work, or buy an aftermarket trigger.

It was earlier in the discussion in this thread that Kallend insisted these were accidents not negligence.

He like to play games with words and twist the discussion, now are you going to tell me there are accidental shootings?

In your words you were "playing with your friends AR-15, did you mean that, or rather were you handling the weapon?

[livendive 8]

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Reducing triger pull force, creep, and letoff is not something that costs money.

That is unless you pay someone else to do the work, or buy an aftermarket trigger.

It was earlier in the discussion in this thread that Kallend insisted these were accidents not negligence.

He like to play games with words and twist the discussion, now are you going to tell me there are accidental shootings?

The word he used in that post was "unexpectedly". To say that's bullshit is to say that when a 3 year old child causes a gun to discharge such that a projectile fatally strikes his 4 year old brother, the 3 year old expected that to be the outcome. I doubt he had any such expectation.

Personally, I'd call such an event an accident. I'd say the cause of the accident was likely negligent storage of a firearm and/or insufficient attention to the children, but maybe that's just me.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kelpdiver 2]

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But figure those 10,000 were commited by perhaps 5000 guns, meanwhile 250M other guns did nothing.

Compare that to the criminal rates of the 250M humans in the country. A lot more than 5000 bad ones.

"acceptable level of loss of human life"?

Tom, it's inappropriate to use quotation marks when I made no such comment. At the very least use single quotes, and then try to justify the bullshit summation.

I refer to the ratio - 1 in 50,000 guns being involved in a murder makes it a bit funny to say that the only purpose of guns is to kill.

[kelpdiver 2]

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He *does* have a point, Professor... while a shooting may be accidental (in the sense of the shooter saying "I didn't mean for it to go off"), I've never heard of any instances where the shooter *didn't* squeeze the trigger.

Have there not been any? The point of the CA requirement for drop testing was an assertion that some guns (the 'junk' variety) might not be well enough constructed to not go off without a finger on the trigger.

[warpedskydiver 0]

I would say that would involve negligence and an unintentional outcome, accident is to say there was simply an unavoidable circumstance.

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Main Entry: ac·ci·dent
Pronunciation: \ˈak-sə-dənt, -ˌdent; ˈaks-dənt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin accident-, accidens nonessential quality, chance, from present participle of accidere to happen, from ad- + cadere to fall — more at chance
Date: 14th century
1 a: an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b: lack of intention or necessity : chance
2 a: an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance b: an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious c: an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought d—used euphemistically to refer to an involuntary act or instance of urination or defecation
3: a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance

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Bad guys getting illegal guns is pretty much the only argument you guys pose for legal gun ownership, but when a 4 year old kid acidentally blows his brains out with a legal gun, guns no longer sound like such a great idea.

Outside of BYU, how many schools see a lot of students with 4 year olds? Again, your accidental shooting thing is a red herring, irrelevent to the conversation.

BTW, instead of pretending they didn't exist, adults in my childhood showed me how to shoot guns. And to respect them. That ole parenting thing.

You are right...I am wrong...deadly accidents with legal guns would never happen on campus.

Accidents with firearms does not occur, negligence and unfamiliarity do cause unintentional shootings.

You say tomato, i say tomatoe.....we are still left with an unnecessary death. Guns are stupid. Chris Rock had it right when he said the cost of each bullet shuold be $5,000. That way you really have to consider if you want to spend that kinda money before shooting someone.

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

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Agreed - but you HAVE heard of pilot error or mechanical failure.

His point (which I agree with) is that, barring mechanical failures (which I've never heard of any instances of) all the accidental shootings are 'pilot error'.... NEGLIGENT discharges, which is MUCH different than ACCIDENTAL discharges.

I am not getting your point. Are you saying that humans can't have accidents, only things can have accidents?

No Sir, I am not - let me try to explain my analogy.

[hypothetical]If you are taking off from O'Hare, and you pitch your Mooney up to a 60 degree climb while simultaneously pulling the throttle back to idle - would the FAA call the mishap pilot ERROR or pilot ACCIDENT?[/hypothetical]

The point is that, failing a mechanical problem with the weapon (which, again, I have never heard an example of during a shooting), it is the HUMAN that decides to cause the weapon to fire.

That, Sir, is not ACCIDENTAL...that is NEGLIGENT.

Hopefully I've made my point clear.

You are stuck on a dictionary. I am stuck on people dying for no reason, be it “accident” or “negligence”. It doesn’t make a difference which vocabulary term you use....the result is still unnecessary death




Edited for spelling to avoid being called an asshole...asshole.

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[kelpdiver 2]

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I *DID* say "for this purpose" and I *do* believe that an 18-22 year old CCW holder is going to (generally) be more mature than his age-mates.

I think that's wrong. He'll be better "trained" on responsible gun use that his nonCCW age-mates. But you can't delete the fact that he's still only 18-20.

Why are you people talking about this age range? CCWs only apply to handguns, which have a floor of 21.

They of course don't get magically that much more mature, but certainly more so than the freshman.

How do they compare to a 40 year old CCW. Less life experience, but a higher iq. I'd rate the 40yo higher, but that's really not the question. The question is are they mature enough, and have they demonstrated so by meeting the state's CCW licensing requirements.

[warpedskydiver 0]

You say tomato, i say tomatoe.....we are still left with an unnecessary death. Guns are stupid. Chris Rock had it right when he said the cost of each bullet shuold be $5,000. That way you really have to consider if you want to spend that kinda money before shooting someone.

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In your words you were "playing with your friends AR-15, did you mean that, or rather were you handling the weapon?

another one stuck on a vocabulary term to avoid realities of guns. They kill...people pulling triggers kill...bullets kill....and in the nicest situations rather than killing guns are used to threaten to kill...or to protect oneself by threatning to kill....fucking morbid.

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[livendive 8]

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I would say that would involve negligence and an unintentional outcome, accident is to say there was simply an unavoidable circumstance.

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Main Entry: ac·ci·dent
Pronunciation: \ˈak-sə-dənt, -ˌdent; ˈaks-dənt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin accident-, accidens nonessential quality, chance, from present participle of accidere to happen, from ad- + cadere to fall — more at chance
Date: 14th century
1 1a: an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance 2b: lack of intention or necessity : chance
2 3a: an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance 4b: an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious c: an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought d—used euphemistically to refer to an involuntary act or instance of urination or defecation
3: a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance

I changed which portions were bolded and added some numbers.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[warpedskydiver 0]

2004 unintentional:

firearm deaths = 649

so you are stuck on that?

What is it about the fact that firearms are one of the lowest causes of unintentional death in the USA?

You may as well campaign against large spoons