NCclimber 0 #26 October 31, 2007 Illegal aliens cost the federal government over ten billion dollars each year. That's a net cost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #27 October 31, 2007 QuoteIllegal aliens cost the federal government over ten billion dollars each year. That's a net cost. Do you have a credible source for that?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #28 October 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteIllegal aliens cost the federal government over ten billion dollars each year. That's a net cost. Do you have a credible source for that? ...with emphasis on the word "credible". Which in my book rules out cherry-picking "studies" by xenophobic agenda groups like FAIR (Federation for American Immigration Reform), which has the following mission statement: "Working to help the American public convince Congress that United States immigration must be reduced." Note how the word "illegal" does not precede the word "immigration". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #29 October 31, 2007 QuoteQuote>Regardless, criminals do not have the same rights as law-abiding >citizens, and neither should illegals, since they are criminals. Well, CONVICTED criminals do not have the same rights as law-abiding citizens; neither should illegal aliens so convicted. What seems so messed up about this issue is how many cities have adopted ordinances banning police from asking people about their immigration status. There's this whole "Sergeant Schultz" mentality to it all. You can thank LULAC, for that. It's common practice for police to check various sources, when someone is arrested or stopped, to see if a person is wanted. If, the information comes back that the person in custody is an ilegal, they are turned-over to the Immigration folks. LULAC has been in the news (here) lately, condemning this practice, here in Texas. All anyone has to to do is check records of the increased crime in this country and a good portion of it goes back to illegals. The politicians are so afraid of not being 'politically correct' because, they are afraid of offending Mexico. Just because we want the cheap labor and Mexico's oil. The whole thing is just screwed-up. We need a complete 'house cleaning' in our government and get people in there with some backbone. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #30 October 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteIllegal aliens cost the federal government over ten billion dollars each year. That's a net cost. Do you have a credible source for that? Here's the source: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html Here's what Sourcewatch had to say about CIS: QuoteThe Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) is an independent, non-partisan, non-profit research organization founded in 1985. It is the nation's only think tank devoted exclusively to research and policy analysis of the economic, social, demographic, fiscal, and other impacts of immigration on the United States. I'm sure all those in favor of wiping the slate clean and giving all illegals US citizenship will have some issues with CIS's findings. Feel free to show where the linked study is wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #31 October 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteIllegal aliens cost the federal government over ten billion dollars each year. That's a net cost. Do you have a credible source for that? Here's the source: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html Here's what Sourcewatch had to say about CIS: QuoteThe Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) is an independent, non-partisan, non-profit research organization founded in 1985. It is the nation's only think tank devoted exclusively to research and policy analysis of the economic, social, demographic, fiscal, and other impacts of immigration on the United States. I'm sure all those in favor of wiping the slate clean and giving all illegals US citizenship will have some issues with CIS's findings. Feel free to show where the linked study is wrong. CIS says about itself that it has a "low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted". Hardly impartial.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #32 October 31, 2007 QuoteThe Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) is an independent, non-partisan, non-profit research organization founded in 1985. Bullshit. QuoteThe Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) is the international organization, or alliance, consisting of eleven former Soviet Republics....However, many observers perceive the CIS as a geopolitical tool, allowing Russia to maintain its influence over the former Soviet republics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Independent_States So how long have you been working for the Russians - Comrade?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #33 October 31, 2007 QuoteHardly impartial. So what? Does that prove that Illegal aliens do not cost the federal government over ten billion dollars each year? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #34 October 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteHardly impartial. So what? Does that prove that Illegal aliens do not cost the federal government over ten billion dollars each year? I'd consider the GAO a credible source. But not a self-confessed anti-immigration think tank.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #35 October 31, 2007 Quote>But does law enforcement systematically turn a blind eye to obvious >red flags, regarding people smoking pot? Yep. I know several cops who 'look the other way' when people smoke pot at drop zones.Depends on the cop. I had an oz. in the car in New Orleans a few yrs. back given back to me after he found it in a traffic stop. I haven't smoked in many moons now tho.I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #36 October 31, 2007 A read of the CIS study’s Executive Summary presents some different conclusions than are part of the usual rhetoric. “With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.” Connecting back to the thread on Democratic Presidential Candidate John Edward’s proposal for ‘universal’ college education, there’s a potential correlation that it’s because he wants a more highly educated workforce that will pay higher taxes (in terms of absolute dollars). The CIS study also notes that: “Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.” So from a comprehensive perspective, poor legal, unskilled and un/underemployed American citizens cost (i.e., those not paying taxes or very small amounts of taxes in an absolute sense) the federal government the most. “Reducing the costs illegals impose would probably be the most difficult of the three options because illegal households already impose only about 46 percent as much in costs on the federal government as other households.” & “If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.” (NB: the CIS study specifically identifies children born to illegal immigrants: “Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.”) The CIS study asserts that they are not alone in their conclusions: “Our overall conclusion that education level is the primary determinant of tax payments made and services used is very similar to the conclusion of the 1997 National Research Council report, "The New Americans." The results of our study also closely match the findings of a 1998 Urban Institute study, which examined tax payments by illegal aliens in New York State. In order to test our results we ran separate estimates for federal taxes and found that, when adjusted for inflation, our estimated federal taxes are almost identical to those of the Urban Institute. The results of this study are also buttressed by an analysis of illegal alien tax returns done by the Inspector General's Office of the Department of Treasury in 2004, which found that about half of illegals had no federal income tax liability, very similar to our finding of 45 percent. ------ From just reading the executive summary (which can be *highly dangerous*), one of the conclusions that I take away is that the US needs to insure that there are reasonably well-paying jobs available to its legal citizens. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #37 October 31, 2007 Quote From just reading the executive summary (which can be *highly dangerous*), one of the conclusions that I take away is that the US needs to insure that there are reasonably well-paying jobs available to its legal citizens. VR/Marg And that the legal citizens are sufficiently educated to succeed in those jobs. Walk around any US research laboratory (including the national labs) and you will find a very large percentage of immigrant research scientists and engineers. The US is a net importer of technical talent.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #38 October 31, 2007 QuoteAnd that the legal citizens are sufficiently educated to succeed in those jobs. Walk around any US research laboratory (including the national labs) and you will find a very large percentage of immigrant research scientists and engineers. The US is a net importer of technical talent. Interesting how we've diverged the discussion to LEGAL immigrants in a thread titled "illegals" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #39 October 31, 2007 Interesting, but yet not surprising eh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #40 October 31, 2007 QuoteInteresting, but yet not surprising eh? not so much, I was talking to a couple of our PhD's the other day and it's amazing the different ways they had to SNEAK into the country in order to illegally get responsible, contributing, technical and executive positions in this fortune 100 company. by 'sneak', I mean file the correct paperwork, wait their turns, get a company to sponsor them (get a good job), work and pay taxes. HOW DARE THEY? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #41 October 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteInteresting, but yet not surprising eh? not so much, I was talking to a couple of our PhD's the other day and it's amazing the different ways they had to SNEAK into the country in order to illegally get responsible, contributing, technical and executive positions in this fortune 100 company. by 'sneak', I mean file the correct paperwork, wait their turns, get a company to sponsor them (get a good job), work and pay taxes. HOW DARE THEY? While, as usual, you are making cynical comments, there is more than an element of truth to the "sneaking". A large number of foreign students come here on temporary visas, get "temporary" employment for practical training for low pay with the understanding that they go back to the home country after 18 months. Then the company swears on a stack of Bibles that the individual now has special skills that cannot be found anywhere in the USA but in this one person, and they sponsor him/her for a permanent visa. Company gets 18 months of work for sub-par pay, with a wink to the student that at the end of it he/she will get sponsored for a permanent visa.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #42 October 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteInteresting, but yet not surprising eh? not so much, I was talking to a couple of our PhD's the other day and it's amazing the different ways they had to SNEAK into the country in order to illegally get responsible, contributing, technical and executive positions in this fortune 100 company. by 'sneak', I mean file the correct paperwork, wait their turns, get a company to sponsor them (get a good job), work and pay taxes. HOW DARE THEY? While, as usual, you are making cynical comments, there is more than an element of truth to the "sneaking". A large number of foreign students come here on temporary visas, get "temporary" employment for practical training for low pay with the understanding that they go back to the home country after 18 months. Then the company swears on a stack of Bibles that the individual now has special skills that cannot be found anywhere in the USA but in this one person, and they sponsor him/her for a permanent visa. Company gets 18 months of work for sub-par pay, with a wink to the student that at the end of it he/she will get sponsored for a permanent visa. Does that mean they stay here illegally? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #43 October 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteInteresting, but yet not surprising eh? not so much, I was talking to a couple of our PhD's the other day and it's amazing the different ways they had to SNEAK into the country in order to illegally get responsible, contributing, technical and executive positions in this fortune 100 company. by 'sneak', I mean file the correct paperwork, wait their turns, get a company to sponsor them (get a good job), work and pay taxes. HOW DARE THEY? While, as usual, you are making cynical comments, there is more than an element of truth to the "sneaking". A large number of foreign students come here on temporary visas, get "temporary" employment for practical training for low pay with the understanding that they go back to the home country after 18 months. Then the company swears on a stack of Bibles that the individual now has special skills that cannot be found anywhere in the USA but in this one person, and they sponsor him/her for a permanent visa. Company gets 18 months of work for sub-par pay, with a wink to the student that at the end of it he/she will get sponsored for a permanent visa. Does that mean they stay here illegally? Depends if you consider signing a government document knowing that you don't intend to abide by its terms to be perjury or just carelessness, I suppose.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #44 October 31, 2007 QuoteWhile, as usual, you are making cynical commentstrue, there is more than an element of truth to the "sneaking"true, . A large number of foreign students come here on temporary visas, get "temporary" employment for practical training for low pay with the understanding that they go back to the home country after 18 monthstrue, . Then the company swears on a stack of Bibles that the individual now has special skills that cannot be found anywhere in the USA but in this one person, and they sponsor him/her for a permanent visa.true, yay, the system works ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #45 October 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhile, as usual, you are making cynical commentstrue, there is more than an element of truth to the "sneaking"true, . A large number of foreign students come here on temporary visas, get "temporary" employment for practical training for low pay with the understanding that they go back to the home country after 18 monthstrue, . Then the company swears on a stack of Bibles that the individual now has special skills that cannot be found anywhere in the USA but in this one person, and they sponsor him/her for a permanent visa.true, yay, the system works And every college placement office in the country tells the companies and the kids how to do it. true (to save you the trouble)... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #46 October 31, 2007 QuoteAnd every college placement office in the country tells the companies and the kids how to do it. true (to save you the trouble) those dang liberal colleges, up to their old hijinx (hyjinks, hyjincs, high jinks, heigionix, ginandtonics,....???) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #47 October 31, 2007 >“With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, >the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels >and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or >heavy use of most social services.” While that may well be true, it's a bit of a stretch from "the government doesn't make as much money on illegal aliens" to "illegal aliens cost the government billions of dollars a year." I mean, if you win the lottery, retire and play golf all day, I don't think you'd be "bilking the government out of hundreds of thousands of dollars" just because you no longer pay income taxes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #48 October 31, 2007 Quote While that may well be true, it's a bit of a stretch from "the government doesn't make as much money on illegal aliens" to "illegal aliens cost the government billions of dollars a year." While that may well be true, it doesn't disprove either statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #49 October 31, 2007 >While that may well be true, it doesn't disprove either statement. Agreed. So for now we'll consider the statement "Illegal aliens cost the federal government over ten billion dollars each year" unsupported. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #50 October 31, 2007 QuoteInteresting, but yet not surprising eh? Same old deal! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
