Butters 0 #101 November 19, 2007 Quote Quote Universal Statement: 1 + 1 = 2 The universal statement is mathematically correct regardless if one or everyone disagrees. No 1+1 = 10 (I prefer working in binary) This is actually a good example because it shows that the concept remains the same (universal) while the context changes (local)."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #102 November 19, 2007 QuoteJust to clarify we do not allow anything. To think we wield such power that other nations need too ask permission or that the ones that don’t ask permission will be punished is very arrogant and the essence of what is wrong with our foreign policy. We do allow many things. However, you (and others) stated that right and wrong are relative. If right and wrong are relative then our foreign policy is only wrong relative to you (and others). Thus, we just need to eliminate you (and others) for our foreign policy to always be right."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #103 November 19, 2007 Some rights and wrongs are relative. Some are not.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #104 November 19, 2007 QuoteSome rights and wrongs are relative. Some are not. If you read the entire thread you would realize that you do not have to tell me, you need to tell everyone else ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #105 November 19, 2007 QuoteRemember this is from the guy who thinks all violent rapists, and child molesters should be executed. No.... you think YOU get to 'murder' - without due process- whenever you feel a little (or a lot) outrage. I think they should be executed, under law, as a result of a fair trial. regardless of how much outrage I may personally feel at any time during the process ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
78RATS 0 #106 November 19, 2007 Quote instead of spouting bollocks But...that outfit is the dogs bollocks. Rat for Life - Fly till I die When them stupid ass bitches ask why Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #107 November 19, 2007 QuoteQuoteRemember this is from the guy who thinks all violent rapists, and child molesters should be executed. No.... you think YOU get to 'murder' - without due process- whenever you feel a little (or a lot) outrage. I think they should be executed, under law, as a result of a fair trial. regardless of how much outrage I may personally feel at any time during the process Thats another thread bro. Just making the point that one must leave personal beliefs and absolutes aside when discussing other cultures. As most will wholeheartedly think their way is the right way.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #108 November 19, 2007 Quote Some rights and wrongs are relative. Some are not. Quote Just making the point that one must leave personal beliefs and absolutes aside when discussing other cultures. You state that some rights and wrongs are absolute but we should not use them while discussing other cultures ... why? "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #109 November 19, 2007 >You over-estimate the intelligence of the American populace. Quite optomistic, I'd say. I can always hope. I mean, sure, there are a lot of people out there who want only to drill every drop of oil we can as quickly as we can, keep paying trillions to countries who hate us and stop development of any serious alternative to oil. But there are also car companies building hybrids, solar panel manufacturers who can't keep up with demand, steady resistance to drilling in protected areas and growing awareness of the problems of CO2 emission and oil dependence. Wind power is growing and resistance to new nuclear power plants is beginning to fade. So all in all there are some hopeful signs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #110 November 19, 2007 The brutal rape and then injustice to a girl is caused by Global Warming. Nicely done. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #111 November 19, 2007 QuoteYou state that some rights and wrongs are absolute but we should not use them while discussing other cultures ... why? I said some rights and wrongs are relative and some are not. As for why it does not apply to cultures the simple answer is no one knows whose culture is right or wrong. You can not say your way is betterm, as different people have different priorities and have a different set of values.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #112 November 19, 2007 QuoteI said some rights and wrongs are relative and some are not. Is this not the same as saying that some rights and wrongs are absolute and some are not? QuoteAs for why it does not apply to cultures the simple answer is no one knows whose culture is right or wrong. You can not say your way is betterm, as different people have different priorities and have a different set of values. If some rights and wrongs are absolute then we know when some cultures are right and wrong and we know when some cultures could be better (relative to themselves)."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #113 November 19, 2007 > The brutal rape and then injustice to a girl is caused by Global Warming. I can't believe you SUPPORT the rape of this woman! Your position, sir, makes no sense whatsoever. (See, this is fun!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #114 November 19, 2007 Quote >You over-estimate the intelligence of the American populace. Quite optomistic, I'd say. I can always hope. I mean, sure, there are a lot of people out there who want only to drill every drop of oil we can as quickly as we can, keep paying trillions to countries who hate us and stop development of any serious alternative to oil. But there are also car companies building hybrids, solar panel manufacturers who can't keep up with demand, steady resistance to drilling in protected areas and growing awareness of the problems of CO2 emission and oil dependence. Wind power is growing and resistance to new nuclear power plants is beginning to fade. So all in all there are some hopeful signs. My thoughts exactly when I posted the article about the rape victim getting lashed. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #115 November 19, 2007 how many times do i have to say it over and over? can someone else maybe explain this in simpler terms? it's really not hard: Quote"All generalizations are wrong." it's an old "joke" but if you can see the flaw in that statement, you've now seen the logical argument i'm trying to make here. But let me spell it out. My universal standard: Murder and rape are wrong. Your universal standard: There's no universal standard. You are making an absolute statement when you say say "there are no universal standards". JUST like i am when i say "Murder and rape are wrong". YOUR absolute statement is basically saying that NO absolute statements are correct. Well, if no absolute statements are correct, then you have, in fact nullified your own absolute statement. Where it gets sticky is that if you say your statement is NOT absolute, then your statement is relative, which of course means you can't argue against MY statement. It's all relative, right? This is an extension of Russell's Paradox. Google it if you want. http://plato.stanford.edu/...ies/russell-paradox/ I am not talking about my own personal moral yardstick here. I am using logical reasoning that has been used for centuries for rational discourse and debate. To be honest, i wish relativism held up under scrutiny, because it's easier. Wouldn't life for us be so easy if relativism were true? But it's not, and life's not easy...so the real questions become where do we draw the line between what's tolerable and what isn't, and what do we do if that line is crossed. Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #116 November 20, 2007 Morals/ right and wrong are a human construct and differs from human to human. If there are no humans then there are no morals or right or wrong. All that would be left are animals. They don't understand right and wrong. There is no "Universal Standard". That is your idea. Quote YOUR absolute statement is basically saying that NO absolute statements are correct. Well, if no absolute statements are correct, then you have, in fact nullified your own absolute statement. You misinterpret my statment. I did not say there no correct absolute statments. I did say that your absolute statement is not correct. A big difference. BTW when I say there is no "Universal Standard" I am refering to the topic on hand. Meaning your "Universal Standard of Morals" not any universal standard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #117 November 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteYou state that some rights and wrongs are absolute but we should not use them while discussing other cultures ... why? I said some rights and wrongs are relative and some are not. As for why it does not apply to cultures the simple answer is no one knows whose culture is right or wrong. You can not say your way is betterm, as different people have different priorities and have a different set of values. Now this, right here, is the thing that really, really pisses me off when people say "hey you can't condemn {insert fucked up law here} - it's just their culture!" That's basically complete bollocks, and here's why. Say, for the sake of argument, that most people in Saudi are in favour of strict sharia law - so fucking what? The tyranny of the majority does not stop being a bad thing when you move east of the Bosporous! Explicitly enshrined in the US constitution, and present to mostly the same degree throughout most of western europe, is the protections of the freedoms of all citizens from the whims of the self appointed moral majority. What that basically means is that here in the civilised world you can live by Sharia law if you want to, you can live by the Old Testament, New Testament, Wicca, Hinduism, Buddhism - you can impose on yourself as strict a lifestyle as you so choose, but you can't do the same to me even if you do outnumber me 10 to 1. I love that protection, I can't imagine what life might be like without it and y'know what, I guarantee that there are plenty of people living in Saudi Arabia who are just like me. Is it OK for these people to be forced to live under the strictest religious regime just because they were unlucky enough to be born into "a different culture"? Fuck that!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #118 November 20, 2007 QuoteMorals/ right and wrong are a human construct and differs from human to human. If there are no humans then there are no morals or right or wrong. All that would be left are animals. They don't understand right and wrong. There is no "Universal Standard". That is your idea. Quote YOUR absolute statement is basically saying that NO absolute statements are correct. Well, if no absolute statements are correct, then you have, in fact nullified your own absolute statement. You misinterpret my statment. I did not say there no correct absolute statments. I did say that your absolute statement is not correct. A big difference. BTW when I say there is no "Universal Standard" I am refering to the topic on hand. Meaning your "Universal Standard of Morals" not any universal standard. There is no universal moral standard? is that what you are saying? if so, then please re-read my post again. Of course we are talking about MORAL standards here...please don't argue based solely on semantics. I am not misinterpreting anything...there are two possibilities here: 1. If you say "there is no universal moral standard, it's all relative" and you mean it as an absolute, 100% thing that applies to everyone the world over...then you are contradicting yourself by in fact, applying your own moral standard (that standard being that there is no standard). If your moral standard (that there is no standard) is allowable, then why not others? 2. If you say "there's no universal standard, it's all relative" but mean it only to apply to yourself, then your personal moral code now ALSO allows for objective, universal moral standards to exist, since another person besides yourself believes them to exist. Once again, contradicting your own argument. It matters not whether I believe in moral relativism. What matters is that it is not a position that can be borne out when held up to logical scrutiny.Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #119 November 20, 2007 QuoteIt matters not whether I believe in moral relativism. What matters is that it is not a position that can be borne out when held up to logical scrutiny. I think you are using faulty logic. Morals differ from person to person yet you think there is some "Universal Standard of Morals". From culture to culture and different time periods there are different sets of accepted morals. The people that believe in Sharia Law believe in it just as strongly as you believe in your "Universal Standard of Morals". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #120 November 20, 2007 Quote>You over-estimate the intelligence of the American populace. Quite optomistic, I'd say. I can always hope. I mean, sure, there are a lot of people out there who want only to drill every drop of oil we can as quickly as we can, keep paying trillions to countries who hate us and stop development of any serious alternative to oil. But there are also car companies building hybrids, solar panel manufacturers who can't keep up with demand, steady resistance to drilling in protected areas and growing awareness of the problems of CO2 emission and oil dependence. Wind power is growing and resistance to new nuclear power plants is beginning to fade. So all in all there are some hopeful signs.Was watching IHistory channel yesterday. The French are making cars that run on AIR. Cool as shit. Goes up to 70 mph. 7K to 25K, depends on size and 4 cyl. or 6). Hybrids too. A couple gallons of gas runs the compressor when you run out of compressed air. 0 emission.I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #121 November 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteIt matters not whether I believe in moral relativism. What matters is that it is not a position that can be borne out when held up to logical scrutiny. I think you are using faulty logic. Morals differ from person to person yet you think there is some "Universal Standard of Morals". From culture to culture and different time periods there are different sets of accepted morals. The people that believe in Sharia Law believe in it just as strongly as you believe in your "Universal Standard of Morals". *headsmack* Your assertion that there are no universal moral standards is YOUR belief! it is not mine. i am using logic (in the platonic tradition of debate) to refute YOUR argument that there is no universal standard of morals. You are voicing the "moral relativism" standpoint. I am refuting it. yes, i think there is a universal standard of morals/ethics. you think there is not. do not try to refute my argument by asserting yours as absolute truth (which is very funny, because that in and of itself is a contradiction!)Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #122 November 20, 2007 Ok What are the "Universal Standard of Morals"? Are they written down some where? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #123 November 20, 2007 You haven't given any logic to support your assertion. My logic is pretty basic. History shows that many different times and cultures had much differnt morals compared to ours. If there were a "Universal Standard of Morals" then why don't all of these different cultures and times have this "Universal Standard of Morals". What makes your "Universal Standard of Morals" universal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #124 November 20, 2007 You are missing the point of the previous posts. you cannot logically make the statement "there are no moral absolutes" (or phrase it however). it is not logically defensible. That is my point. Moral relativism as a vocalized or codified philosophy does not hold up under logical scrutiny. I don't know where you got it from, but no where in any of my posts have i proposed any details behind a universal moral code. You seem to think that i'm trying to say that my moral code is the universal one...which is ridiculous. I'm saying that there ARE objective moral standards. that's it. QuoteOk What are the "Universal Standard of Morals"? Are they written down some where? now THIS is what we SHOULD be debating. This is the true question. shall we propose some? murder rape adultery lying stealing cheating pedophilia (i've purposely added some grey area ones) Are you saying that murder is OK in some society if said society deems it to be? how about rape? How about lying? HERE'S where my moral standards come in: I am saying that's horseshit. murder is always wrong. i don't care if you live in the USA or in a tribe in the Amazon. murder is always morally wrong. There are any number of reasons. Religion. Good of society. Survival of civilization. pick one (of course that leads to the next step of the debate...where they come from).Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #125 November 20, 2007 <> That is what I was debating ...look at the title (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
