19-year-old rape victim gets 200 lashes

[jakee 1,489]

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What happens when you're born in Rome and don't want to act like a Roman? Guess it just sucks to be that guy, right

The same thing that happens here when people brake the law because they do not believe in the law. They get arrested and are punished.

Weed, Prostitution, Gay marriage the list can go on and on for the thing many believe should be legal but are not.
You can’t have total anarchy, and the laws of the land are set on that lands morals, values, and sense of right or wrong.

And I disagree with those laws too, fortunately we have a far fewer arbitrary 'moral' laws here than in Saudi Arabia.

Do you agree that freedom is a good thing?

Would you agree that the best way to preserve freedom is to strictly limit the laws that govern personal behaviour to those which prevent one person or organisation from doing undue harm to another person or organistation (eg. rape, theft, murder) and absolutely NOT those laws which seek to impose any one moral structure on the entire populace concerning what consenting adults may do with themselves or each other?

If the answers to the above two questions (or even just the first question) are yes, then it becomes very difficult for you to defend a religious "morality police" regime like Saudi Arabia's.

One final question, if you as a moderate muslim happened to live in Spain in the 15th century, would you be perfectly happy to submit to every whim of the Catholic Church at the height of its dominance?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[nerdgirl 0]

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Anybody can come up with a list of standards. That doesn't make them universal.

There are universal standards – physical constants. Those are truly universal.

With respect to human behavior and consciousness, from a positivist perspective, if one accepts that humans have free will or some Heideggarian Dasein (“Being-In-The-World,”) then facticity (something which is factual/real but which resists explanation and interpretation) can exist. It follows that a human-species-wide -- again, I think "universal" is human hubris -- code of standards for acceptable versus non-acceptable behaviors can exist.

Implementation & execution remain the challenges.

It sounds like you're trying to make a post-modernist deconstructionalist argument (whether you know it or not
As a rationale actor realist, that doesn't matter – which sounds flippant but reflects the real world. Power exists. Power can be used to foster a consensus-based or representative-based government, i.e., the critical importance of strong national defense with civilian oversight. (NB: please do not interpret that as ‘might makes right.’) Through a supra-national body (even if its power is derived from its member states), an ‘artificial’ code of standards can be derived and promulgated.

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Kudos to "BikerBabe" for trying to pull in some historical philosophical traditions.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Darius11 12]

Bro. You are missing the point.

I believe as stated before that you should be able to do anything you want as long as it does not effect others. Basically your rights do not end until they infringe on someone else's rights.
I would love to walk down the street with a blunt in one hand, and bottle blue lable in the other.

What you are missing is what I want does not matter.

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Do you agree that freedom is a good thing?

I agree that i belive that, but i know people that believe it is better for their society to have restrictions. They are afraid they might end up like us.
People point of you doesn’t only differ a bit, in some cases they are 180 degrees apart.



Here is a great true example for you.
I know people Iranian people who are loyal to the Prince of Iran and think him taking back his thrown and becoming King is the best solution for Iran. I think they are insane, I believe we should be like the US no kings. They truly believe in their cause they also truly believe that a King would be better then a democratically elected leader. Crazy concept for us who are used to our way but to them I am the crazy one.

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One final question, if you as a moderate muslim happened to live in Spain in the 15th century, would you be perfectly happy to submit to every whim of the Catholic Church at the height of its dominance?

I can’t answer a question like that but I will give you a true example that might have the same idea.

I went back to Iran at the age of 16 and back at that time I was forced to follow the strict religious law at least out side of our home. I have been arrested, shot at, had guns put to my head, etc. the list goose on and on. Did I like these things no, but I unwillingly was living there so I did the best I could. Respected the laws that could get me in some serious trouble and broke the ones that I felt I could get away with or were worth the risk.


Here is where it gets interesting (based on my understanding from the people I interacted with when I was there).
There are Iranians who believe that it is great the way it is full Islamic law.
There are Iranians who think the way it is is fucked and want to be like the US.

But most Iranians want somewhere in between the thought of total Islamic law scars them as much as becoming as “free” as the United States.

By all standards I believe the Iranian people are the most progressive people in the Middle East and yet they still would not agree with you or me.


Once again because there value system and what they viwe as wrong and right differs from us.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[jakee 1,489]

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I can’t answer a question like that but I will give you a true example that might have the same idea.

I went back to Iran at the age of 16 and back at that time I was forced to follow the strict religious law at least out side of our home. I have been arrested, shot at, had guns put to my head, etc. the list goose on and on. Did I like these things no, but I unwillingly was living there so I did the best I could. Respected the laws that could get me in some serious trouble and broke the ones that I felt I could get away with or were worth the risk.

Here is where it gets interesting (based on my understanding from the people I interacted with when I was there).
There are Iranians who believe that it is great the way it is full Islamic law.
There are Iranians who think the way it is is fucked and want to be like the US.

And that is exactly the point!

You can't defend a totalitarian regime by saying "it's just their culture". The ones who want full Islamic law can still live by full Islamic law without government legislation forcing it on the entire populace. When Sharia law is enshrined in the national legislation then the people who want to live more liberally are forbidden to do so.

This holds around the globe for any culture, for the people who want to live by whatever enshrined cultural rules - go ahead! I'll probably think you're a bit wierd, but hey. But wherever people are being forced to live by the cultural rules of others, that is just wrong.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

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Frankly for anyone to stand up and assume that they are capable of setting the standard for the universe would be extremely arrogant and laughable.

Arrogant? Not in all cases
Laughable? Sometimes, sometimes laudable.

Depends on how and why it's done, doesn't it?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Darius11 12]

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I'll probably think you're a bit wierd

Most do

Honestly bro. You’re just not getting my point. It doesn’t matter what you or I believe but what the society wants for it self. Different societies want different things. They have different laws, and different punishments.

I am just going to agree to disagree with you.

I am way too happy right now to argue. Peace.



Hey guys/gals have a great Thanksgiving I am out in a bit and will not have internet for a week.

Be Safe, and always have fun.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[nerdgirl 0]

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Frankly for anyone to stand up and assume that they are capable of setting the standard for the universe would be extremely arrogant and laughable.

Arrogant? Not in all cases
Laughable? Sometimes, sometimes laudable.

Depends on how and why it's done, doesn't it?

Concur heartily.


/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[jakee 1,489]

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You’re just not getting my point.

I do get it, I just think you're wrong

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It doesn’t matter what you or I believe but what the society wants for it self.

Doesn't matter what individuals believe?

So you don't see anyhting wrong with totalitarianism?

Nothing wrong with the tyranny of the majority?

Nothing wrong with the crushing of personal freedoms?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[BounceEasy 0]

I doubt that the oppression of women is some type of mysterious cultural tradition that needs to be respected.

If you walk, just walk. If you sit, just sit. But whatever you do, don't wobble.
- Master Ummon

[billvon 2,990]

> I doubt that the oppression of women is some type of mysterious
> cultural tradition that needs to be respected.

Depends! For years they couldn't vote here - and the US defended that practice as only right. Now we think that's absurd; of course women have the right to vote. But they can't take off their tops, even if guys can. Because that's just WRONG.

Were we right back then? Are we right now? Will we be right in the future if women start to really be treated like men? Yes.

[champu 1]

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Interesting strawman. However, i won't fall for it. Lemurs and whether they have moral values have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

I don't feel I restructured your argument by drawing that parallel, but then I also don't think there's anything special about humans that would limit this discussion only to us. But since you insist, I'll let it go.

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Shall I now play Plato? Let me try. Plato says: "If the way things appear to me, in that way they exist for me, and the way things appears to you, in that way they exist for you, then it appears to me that your whole doctrine is false." Poor Protagoras...he cannot say that Plato is wrong, since the basis of his entire philosophy says that whatever Plato believes to be true is right for Plato. So if Plato is correct, then Protagoras is wrong...bye bye relativist doctrine.

That's all valid up until the last statement. Plato cannot agree to get inside of a relativist box and then draw global conclusions from within it. Protagoras faces a similar problem, and the whole exercise becomes trivial.

A more fundamental problem with the way you're going about this whole discussion is that you're making a hidden assumption that morals (what's right or wrong) are as logically well-behaved as truths (what is true or false) Do you understand the problem this creates?