A Study in Fascism: Venezuela

[Trent 0]

Just wanted to point out that a couple of us here have been warning of this for a while now. If you're not paying attention yet, you should...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/30/venezuela.protest/index.html
Chavez threatens to cut oil if U.S. questions vote
# Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez campaigns for end to term limits
# He says if Sunday's vote is "yes," his foes shouldn't contest result
# Vote also would give Chavez full authority over the Central Bank
# Venezuela accounts for up to 15 percent of U.S. crude imports

Just want to point out that there's a case study in how fascist dictators rise to power, and it's in Venezuela. All of the BS hyperbole about Bush, the Patriot Act, etc... and we still have to vote someone else in next year. Hopefully some of you will remember that our problems with leadership, more often than not, pale in comparison to what is going on elsewhere. And YES, sometimes (in this case for sure) we should be concerned about it. Even if Jimmy Carter, Sean Penn, and Danny Glover think Chavez is the cat's pajama's... THIS WILL BE A PROBLEM FOR A LONG TIME.

Oh, hello again!

[masterblaster72 0]

Quote

All of the BS hyperbole about Bush, the Patriot Act, etc...

BS Hyperbole? If you're not alarmed by an outright attack on our constitutional liberties while griping about goings on in South America, you're part of the problem.

Americans should be outraged by our government's implementation and renewal of the Patriot Act and vote out every politician who voted in favor of it.

Quote

THIS WILL BE A PROBLEM FOR A LONG TIME.

So what are you going to do about Chavez? Invade Venezuela? Should we do this before we invade Iran or North Korea? At the same time, why don't we invade Russia? Putin has near absolute power there and plans on keeping it for a while, even past next year's elections.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[masterrig 1]

Because of their abundance of oil, Venezuelans are paying 7-cents a gallon for gas, too! I think, this country has bigger fish to fry at this time. I darned sure, don't let actors persuade me


Chuck

[Trent 0]

Quote

BS Hyperbole? If you're not alarmed by an outright attack on our constitutional liberties while griping about goings on in South America, you're part of the problem.

You're part of the alarmist BS problem we have in the US. Take that. I don't see any impending fascist regime about to rise here. I DO see a bunch of people who don't like the current president making a lot of noise for any reason they can find, claiming that everything is a "threat to our freedoms". I've had the Patriot Act argument before. I've read it. It doesn't scare me that bad.

Quote

So what are you going to do about Chavez? Invade Venezuela? Should we do this before we invade Iran or North Korea? At the same time, why don't we invade Russia? Putin has near absolute power there and plans on keeping it for a while, even past next year's elections.

For starters, we call his bluff. If he cuts off our oil, good. That'll light a fire under us to get something moving about the oil situation. We also need to start paying attention and confronting his BS, much like the king of Spain. To answer you and the following post... frying a small fish before it gets too big is a good idea. I think that a fascist and unstable South America and potentially Mexico IS a big concern.

But I have friends in and from Venezuela who I care about, so maybe it bothers me more... but you can wait until it becomes a "crisis" before you care if you want.

Oh, hello again!

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I've had the Patriot Act before. I've read it. It doesn't scare me that bad.

I would think most fascists would not have any problem with it... it furthers their goals

[Trent 0]

Quote

I would think most fascists would not have any problem with it... it furthers their goals

This is what I'm talking about. Pure bullshit hyperbole. You, being completely reasonable and unquestionably sane and intellectually honest, have the gall to call me a fascist? You want real fascism? Go look at Venezuela. I really think that most people who bitch about the Patriot Act haven't even read it.

What are your thoughts on the situation in Venezuela? Or do you just want to get off topic and make personal attacks?

Oh, hello again!

[tkhayes 348]

Venezuela owns the oil? But all the profits go to large foreign corporations? Chavez wants to change that....which makes him the poor man's hero. Hence he got elected and now he is changing it.

Of course he can 'cross the line' into a fascist dictator too, but what I have seen so far does not constitute that, it only aggarvates those big foreign govt's and companies who want to take it all and keep it all.

Why does Saudi Arabia have no taxes, free health and education and everyone who picks up garbage and mops floors is a foreigner?

Chavez and the Venz. people want the same thing - can they do it? Not overnight and probably not without a civil war or other politicla turmoil.

People like Pat Robertson calling for Chavez to be assassinated is just another example of us sticking our noses in where they do not belong. Stay the fuck out of and away from Venezuela - it is their country and they can fuck it up or make it work if they want to.

TK

[Amazon 7]

Do you really know the difference between fascism.....communism......nationalism....or totalitarianism... so many ism's.. so little time....

[Trent 0]

Quote

Do you really know the difference between fascism.....communism......nationalism....or totalitarianism... so many ism's.. so little time...

Do YOU?

fas·cism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ –noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

Now, tell me where that DOES NOT apply to Hugo Chavez and what he is moving towards in Venezuela. Really, read just a little. Then compare to how close we REALLY are here in the US. Seriously, no crazy conspiracy crap. How close are we REALLY?

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

Quote

Venezuela owns the oil? But all the profits go to large foreign corporations?

Uh, yeah... like that horrible US owned Citgo??? How would you feel if we just nationalized your business since you're not really from here? All your hard work now taken, without payment and given to some incompetent cronies of the president...

Quote

Of course he can 'cross the line' into a fascist dictator too, but what I have seen so far does not constitute that, it only aggarvates those big foreign govt's and companies who want to take it all and keep it all.

He CAN cross the line?? He crossed it a LONG time ago. He IS running a fascist regime. Don't agree? Then have the definition of "fascist" changed to suit whatever you want. (probably to have a picture of Bush under it, huh?)

All I can say is read up on the situation there and what Chavez is doing. If you still think that it's just the "little guy" standing up to the evil American corporations, then we'll just never see eye to eye.

Quote

Chavez and the Venz. people want the same thing - can they do it? Not overnight and probably not without a civil war or other politicla turmoil.

The absolutely DO NOT want the same thing. I am sitting here in my office with a Venezuelan friend right now who will tell you what you're NOT seeing on the spoon fed media from Chavez. Millions of people are against what Chavez is doing and they live under constant threat of violence, loss of their property, or jobs for voicing it. He's predicting a major event there in the next weeks when we see Chavez put himself in power permanently (for life) and FURTHER change the constitution to suit his power grabbing. Make no mistake, Chavez is NOT for the "little guy", that's just the propaganda that lets the ignorant buy into his garbage.

Quote

People like Pat Robertson calling for Chavez to be assassinated is just another example of us sticking our noses in where they do not belong. Stay the fuck out of and away from Venezuela - it is their country and they can fuck it up or make it work if they want to.

Yeah, they are free to fuck it up... but it WILL affect us sooner or later. I'd recommend dealing with it sooner before his filth infects more of South America. Diplomacy, strong diplomacy, first.

Oh, hello again!

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Do YOU?

I see your definition and raise you a couple definitions


http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

Thangs that make yall go HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

The administration has the TECHNOLOGY to ensure it.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fascism

fascism [(fash-iz-uhm)]


A system of government that flourished in Europe from the 1920s to the end of World War II. Germany under Adolf Hitler, Italy under Mussolini, and Spain under Franco were all fascist states. As a rule, fascist governments are dominated by a dictator, who usually possesses a magnetic personality, wears a showy uniform, and rallies his followers by mass parades; appeals to strident nationalism; and promotes suspicion or hatred of both foreigners and “impure” people within his own nation, such as the Jews in Germany. Although both communism and fascism are forms of totalitarianism, fascism does not demand state ownership of the means of production, nor is fascism committed to the achievement of economic equality. In theory, communism opposes the identification of government with a single charismatic leader (the “cult of personality”), which is the cornerstone of fascism. Whereas communists are considered left-wing, fascists are usually described as right-wing.




fascism

noun
a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

Oh yeah, now there's a website that doesnt have a one sided agenda. Why dont you just quote Air America while your at it. I'm sure you and Randy Rhodes should get a long great together.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Amazon 7]

It is what it is... but some cant see the fascists for the deeds that are being done in the name of fear and devisiveness..

There has to be SOME counterpoint to all the BULLSHIT from FAUX NEWS and LUSH RIMJOB that is spread all over the walls around here... in the guise of conservative "thought"

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

The absolutely DO NOT want the same thing. I am sitting here in my office with a Venezuelan friend right now who will tell you what you're NOT seeing on the spoon fed media from Chavez. Millions of people are against what Chavez is doing and they live under constant threat of violence, loss of their property, or jobs for voicing it. He's predicting a major event there in the next weeks when we see Chavez put himself in power permanently (for life) and FURTHER change the constitution to suit his power grabbing. Make no mistake, Chavez is NOT for the "little guy", that's just the propaganda that lets the ignorant buy into his garbage.

I'm not getting into a definition argument or the whole Lefty/Righty tit for tat the SC crew here likes to throw around. However, I have spent a large part of my life in Central and South America working and what I can tell you is that the above statement is dead on accurate ground truth and not media hype/disinformation.

The people of Venezuela do not support Chavez at all. What is seen on TV and the picture/face Chavez shows to the world is the same type of oppression that we have seen in Cuba for years. Staged shows of support and persecution of those who speak against him are common. The truth is, that country is falling apart at Chavez's hand when it should be prospering. He has literally torn that country apart at the seams and it will continue to get worse.


While it seems to be the norm for discussions in the SC to see people linking to news articles or video clips to support their stance, what I rarely see any mention of is History. If you look back at the history of Central and South America and the world climate then you will see how leaders like Chavez/ Morales(Bolivia) have caused not only regional but in some cases international instability in the world. Chavez/Morales aren't the first ones to try this in that region of the world, and I know they won't be the last. However, all of the predecessors who tried this form of government eventually failed but at the expense of the countries people.


People should put all the personal political agenda bullshit aside and do some research into the history (open a book at the library, not on the internet) of this region. Maybe then you will realize the potential powder keg this part of the world could become again with people like Chavez and Morales in charge.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Amazon 7]

Quote

People should put all the personal political agenda bullshit aside and do some research into the history (open a book at the library, not on the internet) of this region. Maybe then you will realize the potential powder keg this part of the world could become again with people like Chavez and Morales in charge.

Sounds to me like we invaded the wrong oil rich country in the guise of "liberation"....I wonder if the Venezuelans would throw flowers at our troops????

In the past we have supported a LOT of repressive regimes in S or Central America..... and have gotten rid of the problem a few times when it becomes in our best interest to do so.

[tkhayes 348]

what if the 'fascist dictator' is feeding the poor, educating the masses, providing housing and health care? Mother Teresa, if she were a fascist dictator with totalitarian control over all, would probably be far better than Mussolini. (or Chavez)

I see Chavez as 'not playing the game' with the big companies and the USA. I do not see him yet torturing and murdering his own people. He is still pretty popular. Ever wonder why?

And yes, if a govt nationalizes the companies and takes away everything - but gives it back to his country and countrymen, then I see the only whining coming from the people at the top - the multi-million dollar CEO's and BoD's, and the politician's that are funded by said CEO's and BoD's

After all, nationalization, communism etc all work in their perfect form.

Trouble is that they are seldom in perfect form. When Russia turned Communist, it was probably the right time for that society. It worked for a while, but never worked perfectly, and eventually, a new time came when it fell apart.

What version will Chavez come up with? I have no idea. Will it work? I have no idea.

Is it good or bad? I have no idea. But it is their decision to make. And we should stay the fuck out of it.

TK

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Vota No!!!

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[masterblaster72 0]

Quote

Yeah, they are free to fuck it up... but it WILL affect us sooner or later. [/QUOTE]

How so? Higher oil prices? Venezuelan-sponsored terrorism within the United States? An invasion of Florida? You keep writing about imminent danger but don't go into specifics, yet it sounds like you have some insight into this situation that a lot of us don't have. So why don't you elaborate?

Quote

I'd recommend dealing with it sooner before his filth infects more of South America. Diplomacy, strong diplomacy, first.

So diplomacy *first.* If that doesn't work, then what? It probably won't work, since Chavez has leverage with large supplies of oil and doesn't necessarily need us as a client. So what comes next, outright invasion? If so, would you volunteer to take part in that invasion, since Mr. Chavez is such a thorn in your side (you've posted about him many times before)? Tell us.

And like I said earlier, this same phenomenon is taking place in Russia with Putin. So should we do something about him too?

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

• Quote

[Amazon 7]

Quote

So what comes next, outright invasion? If so, would you volunteer to take part in that invasion, since Mr. Chavez is such a thorn in your side (you've posted about him many times before)? Tell us.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

yeah.. right....

[Trent 0]

Quote

It is what it is... but some cant see the fascists for the deeds that are being done in the name of fear and devisiveness..

You can find what you want, Chavez IS a fascist by definition. So he's taking state control over businesses and "SAYS" he's a socialist... that doesn't make it so. If you can't see fascism in a PRIME example, how can anyone take you seriously when you call our own government fascist???

Quote

There has to be SOME counterpoint to all the BULLSHIT from FAUX NEWS and LUSH RIMJOB that is spread all over the walls around here... in the guise of conservative "thought"

And so that counterpoint that you provide is pure fantasy... good job. My article was from CNN, by the way.

Do a simple search on YouTube for "Venezuela Protest".... I guess people who claim to have "open minds" have closed eyes...

Oh, hello again!

[Amazon 7]

So.. we have another Texican....... wanting another war.....I guess that is the answer to all of lifes problems in TEXAS.... SHOOT him......he needed killin


Gee now there is a fucking surprise




You signin up to go????

[Trent 0]

Quote

what if the 'fascist dictator' is feeding the poor, educating the masses, providing housing and health care?

He is not. What you are being spoon fed is not reality. Venezuela is WAY worse off today than it was under their last dictator!

Quote

And yes, if a govt nationalizes the companies and takes away everything - but gives it back to his country and countrymen, then I see the only whining coming from the people at the top - the multi-million dollar CEO's and BoD's, and the politician's that are funded by said CEO's and BoD's

Do you think devaluing his "people's" currency to the point that it might as well be toilet paper is "giving it back to them"??? Look at the state exchange rate (which is bad enough) then look at the black market rates... it's bad. And getting worse. Is putting cronies in businesses only to have them run them into the ground, giving anything back to the people? How are the people better when their country is falling apart?

Quote

I do not see him yet torturing and murdering his own people. He is still pretty popular. Ever wonder why?

Ignorance. Pay offs. Propaganda. Search YouTube to see how dissenters are treated. They ARE being murdered, fired, intimidated, beaten.

You seem so quick to point out that our media is propaganda, yet eagerly snap up that ignoramus' propaganda (that really LOOKS like old Soviet propaganda) as the truth????

Well okay then.

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

Quote

How so? Higher oil prices? Venezuelan-sponsored terrorism within the United States? An invasion of Florida? You keep writing about imminent danger but don't go into specifics, yet it sounds like you have some insight into this situation that a lot of us don't have. So why don't you elaborate?

I wouldn't call common sense "insight" but okay... Do you think that having a vehemently anti-American government in South America that is trying to spread the sentiments as far as possible to be a GOOD thing?? You DO realize that Chavez is dedicating lots of money and effort into getting into the affairs of all the South and Central American governments, don't you? You DO realize that Chavez is all cozy with Iran and China don't you? It will be a problem in the future. Like I said, you can ignore it until then if it makes you feel better.

Quote

So diplomacy *first.* If that doesn't work, then what? It probably won't work, since Chavez has leverage with large supplies of oil and doesn't necessarily need us as a client. So what comes next, outright invasion? If so, would you volunteer to take part in that invasion, since Mr. Chavez is such a thorn in your side (you've posted about him many times before)? Tell us.

What is diplomacy ever backed up with? Action. Doesn't always mean war (contrary to Amazon's inane rantings and challenges). Start working more closely with other South American countries to help them understand the danger he poses to the region. Educate people on how it is detrimental to everyone to have a lunatic next door. Support reform. I'm not a policy maker and don't have ALL the ideas. There's bright people in the government (past, current, and future), I'm sure we can come up with something short of war.

I've had some other people in the past ask me to sign up for a war before... last resort of a weak argument. I haven't advocated invading Venezuela, although many of my friends from there have said that they'd like us to. What I do or plan on doing for my country is MY business and it does NOT preclude me from being able to form and state an opinion. I'm sorry for you if you think that it does. Please remember that when you post your opinions.

Quote

And like I said earlier, this same phenomenon is taking place in Russia with Putin. So should we do something about him too?

He's not as close, but we've had to deal with that nonsense from Russia before. What do you think we should do when someone pops up and tries to upset the world? Are you all really that isolationist? Do you think that things that happen around the world don't affect us?

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 3,006]

> Just wanted to point out that a couple of us here have been warning
>of this for a while now.

Same ol' same ol'. That windbag has been blustering for years. I liked his statement on how he's "going to give another knockout to Bush." Right - we can all recall the last time he did _that._

[Trent 0]

Quote

So.. we have another Texican....... wanting another war.....I guess that is the answer to all of lifes problems in TEXAS.... SHOOT him......he needed killin

Gee now there is a fucking surpriseCrazy

You signin up to go????

Where did I say that we should just kill all the Chavistas? Is complete ignorance really your debate tactic? Sad.

I'm just as (not) surprised that we have another Amazon post that can't seem to play the ball instead of the player.

Oh, hello again!