A Study in Fascism: Venezuela

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Or I can care and disagree with you. I like Chavez for having the balls to step up to Goliath, not many countries still do that.

Reallly?? It seems to me that the current administration has done a great job making us into international pariahs.

I don't think that bashing Bush takes a remarkable amount of courage. Bush-bashing has become a popular international sport second only to soccer.

If you read my posts you can tell I'm not a real big fan of Bush, I think his administration has been a disaster.

But just because Chavez speaks out against him doesn't impress me, and doesn't change the fact that Chavez is a power-greedy authoritarian little troll.

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[shropshire 0]

Just because one bully stands up to another bully doesn't make either of them right. The world isn't that back and white.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[nerdgirl 0]

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This is a good reason why I avoid posting in here as much anymore.

Yes, we’ve got strongly opinionated and smart folks here – that’s what makes it fun!

It does sound like you and LouDiamond have varying degrees of experience, expertise, and interest in the region that motivates you to be more aware than some others, perhaps. I can relate a lot about incidents by the Grupo de Comandos Revolucionarios, Operacion Argimiro Gabaldon (Argimiro Gabaldon Revolutionary Command) in 1970s Venezuela and other South American communist, socialist, and other unspecified left-wing terrorists groups (including some that pushed for environmental reforms! ), but that’s a different area of knowledge … so I have some ignorance and some expertise. I fully concur w/Lou’s call for being cognizant of history. Given that …

I have 2 holistic & 2 specific interests in South America’s longest democracy:

1. Acknowledging that there are significant dissimilarities in the government structure, history, and culture – from my perspective (owned as that), what led to the rise of Chavez in Venezuela was largely (a) due to outside economic factors that (b) led to pronounced wealth disparity among the citizenry. Acknowledging that Caldera inherited a lot of problems, what did Venezuela get while he (& his predecessors) was in office? Inflation and increased wealth disparity (concentration in a narrow group of the citizenry). Again the parallels are not pristine and trends in wealth disparity are much more pronounced in Venezuela, but are there lessons that the US should be learning? I think yes.

2. How does the US govt (in general, not any specific administration) chose foreign policy interests?

Democracy is not easy … & letting out my cynical side, I’d quip democracy is the right to be as stupid as you want to be.

3. Involvement of Venezuelan government under Chavez with Columbia’s FARC. There’s been a fair bit of radical Islamist activity over the last 15 years in the Tri-Border Area (further south), which is about as ungoverned as Pakistan’s western territories. No, FARC is not radical Islamists & Venezuela is not ungoverned, is this a new model for South American state/sub-state activity?

4. Rhetoric w/r/t wanting nuclear capabilities … thus far stated to be purely for domestic energy. Chavez with the bomb or nuclear capability is not something I want ... nor de Silva (Lula).

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As for getting your own house in order... that's a cop out argument. Just because we have problems here means we can't DISCUSS and THINK about what's going on nearby or worldwide?

Heartily concur!
Hopefully we can learn from them too.

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I don't see anyone here advocating invading Venezuela. Do you?

Here in SC? No.
Full invasion? No, and not currently as far as I can tell w/in the USG.

Was some military or CIA action discussed while Roger Noriega was Asst Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs? That’s speculation at this point …

There are circumstantial and other documents suggesting that some action was contemplated. For example, see the redacted for public release State OIG report, which found that: “it is clear that NED [the National Endowment for Democracy], Department of Defense (DOD), and other U.S. assistance programs provided training, institution building, and other support to individuals and organizations understood to be actively involved in the brief ouster of the Chavez government [emphasis nerdgirl].”

Otto Reich (another former Deputy or Deputy Asst Secretary of State) in April 2005 The National Review wrote w/r/t to Chavez that the “pressing specific challenge is neutralizing [emphasis nerdgirl] or defeating the Cuba-Venezuela axis.”

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Channman 2]

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>Yes, because I think that people losing their lives, property, and
>freedoms to give power to a lunatic is bad . . .

Agreed. But the reason the people of Venezuela will lose their freedoms is not Chavez - it is them. The referendum on the constitutional changes will be voted on by the people of Venezuela; they have the right to determine their own form of government. We may not like them doing this, because it gives more power to a corrupt leader. But it is their choice, not ours.

This would be true if it is determined the people of Venezuela votes were counted.
I'm sure there is no voter fraud in Venezuela unlike what we have here in the US.

[nerdgirl 0]

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This would be true if it is determined the people of Venezuela votes were counted.

Okay, so what is the evidence for/against and what efforts are underway w/r/t eliminating voter fraud in Venezuela?

Why evidence is there that past elections should or should not have been verified as transparent and open?
What have been the problems with the Carter Center Elections Monitoring groups?

Do the estimated/guestimated voter fraud numbers exceed the electoral margin?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[billvon 3,008]

>This would be true if it is determined the people of Venezuela votes were counted.

Yep. Right now the election is being monitored by 1200 Venezuelan observers as well as observers from the EU and Latin America. So at least we'll have some sense of whether it's fair or not.

[Rookie120 0]

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Yep. Right now the election is being monitored by 1200 Venezuelan observers as well as observers from the EU and Latin America. So at least we'll have some sense of whether it's fair or not.

That doesn't mean shit! Look at how many times they recounted in Florida and it still didnt solve anything. It didnt matter how many time they counted the still said Bush rigged it.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,008]

>That doesn't mean shit! Look at how many times they recounted in
>Florida and it still didnt solve anything.

You're comparing the Florida election results to the Venezuela vote? If so, then we have absoutely no right to bitch; they are doing as well as we do. And we consider ourselves a democracy.

[Royd 0]

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Fascism, Mousolini Fascism is pretty much gone by the way of neo-fascism. Neo-fascism is:

Neo-fascism is a post-World War II ideology that includes significant elements of fascism.

So how long does something have to be in existance before some people quit attaching the prefix 'NEO' to it? Please tell me.

[billvon 3,008]

>So how long does something have to be in existance before some
>people quit attaching the prefix 'NEO' to it?

How long you figure New York will be around before people start calling it just plain "York?"

[Andy9o8 2]

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how long does something have to be in existance before some people quit attaching the prefix 'NEO' to it?

Until it becomes Retro.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Hugo Chavez quote:

"The old values of individualism, capitalism and egoism must be demolished."


Echoing Che Guevara's quote "Individualism is dead!"


Individualism is the enemy according to these people.

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[Trent 0]

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Yes, we’ve got strongly opinionated and smart folks here – that’s what makes it fun!

Unfortunately, they are often drowned out by the loonies. It seems to be much worse over the last year, hence... my slacking.

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It does sound like you and LouDiamond have varying degrees of experience, expertise, and interest in the region that motivates you to be more aware than some others, perhaps. I can relate a lot about incidents by the Grupo de Comandos Revolucionarios...

And I have NO problems stating that I'm ignorant of many things... several specifics that you just mentioned in fact. It's good to see that some thinking people don't take that for any more than it is.

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from my perspective (owned as that), what led to the rise of Chavez in Venezuela was largely (a) due to outside economic factors that (b) led to pronounced wealth disparity among the citizenry.

Is that disparity any worse in any other South American country? The lack of a stable middle class seems to create a lot of problems everywhere. My view was that while Venezuela had many poor (like most S.American countries) they also had a middle class that was bootstrapping itself up the ladder. Many of the people I know are not what you would call rich and privileged. Many of them have their own businesses. For a while, IMO, it seemed like there was a good chance of a stable and improving country in Venezuela. Almost even up to Chavez's first term. Venezuela suffered from what many S.American countries suffer, corruption at every level. From what I've read and anecdotal accounts, even while Perez was recognized as corrupt... the country was getting better, albeit slowly.

More apropos to now, though... what has Chavez done to make his country better? Lip service to the poor, a few internet cafes in the poor neighborhoods, some rudimentary doctor visits to the slums... then put HIS corruption, his croneyism, his determination to never leave office and continually grab more power, and the fact that his country is in a downward economic spiral like it's never seen before! It's typical and sad. In fact, his wealth "reallocation" seems to be finding its way into his pockets and those of his supporters more than those of the poor.

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2. How does the US govt (in general, not any specific administration) chose foreign policy interests?

Now that's a whole 'nother conversation.

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Democracy is not easy … & letting out my cynical side, I’d quip democracy is the right to be as stupid as you want to be.

I like to say that countries get the leaders they deserve.

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3. Involvement of Venezuelan government under Chavez with Columbia’s FARC. There’s been a fair bit of radical Islamist activity over the last 15 years in the Tri-Border Area (further south), which is about as ungoverned as Pakistan’s western territories. No, FARC is not radical Islamists & Venezuela is not ungoverned, is this a new model for South American state/sub-state activity?

Let's hope not. Although it does seem that with Chavez in power, he's willing to devote a lot of "his people's" money to things like that. You know, to spread his peace loving Bolivarian revolution.

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4. Rhetoric w/r/t wanting nuclear capabilities … thus far stated to be purely for domestic energy. Chavez with the bomb or nuclear capability is not something I want ... nor de Silva (Lula).

Agreed. And Chavez's cozying up to and making large purchases from China is a little unsettling. Let's hope it stays at just "unsettling".

As far as any CIA involvement, as you said, it's all speculation at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if at least an outline or a game plan wasn't considered at some point, purely for the "what if" factor. It's too bad people play it up and Chavez gets so much propaganda out of what is most likely a non-event. But then, that goes back to the whole "freedom to be stupid" thing... if you're buying what he's selling... you may just deserve the consequences.

Thanks for that post.

Oh, hello again!

[masterblaster72 0]

Looks like he's been put in his place.

The people have spoken...

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Trent 0]

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Looks like he's been put in his place.

The people have spoken...

Yep, excited emails and phone calls have taken place!! I only hope the opposition keeps up the hard work and checks him every time he tries to grab more power.

On the conspiracy side, a few friends have mentioned that they would not be surprised if this election was allowed to go smoothly, resulting in a defeat, so that next time he tries and wins, it'll look more legitimate. They asked, why else all the bluster, threats to the US and opposition, and comments about how he'll accept whatever the people decide? It makes an unfortunate kind of sense and I can really see a guy like Chavez trying to pull something like that.

BUT, on the face value of it... GREAT!! I can only hope that it is the first part of a larger swing of the pendulum.

Oh, hello again!

[Lucky... 0]

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>So how long does something have to be in existance before some
>people quit attaching the prefix 'NEO' to it?

How long you figure New York will be around before people start calling it just plain "York?"

How long till they quit calling it the rotten apple?

[Lucky... 0]

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Hugo Chavez quote:

"The old values of individualism, capitalism and egoism must be demolished."


Echoing Che Guevara's quote "Individualism is dead!"


Individualism is the enemy according to these people.

I'm not saying I embrace the guy, or as someone misquoted me, adore him, I'm just saying he has the balls to tell the US they don't have to sell us oil. I hate terrorism, but I also hate Imperialism, so more power to him to run his country the way he wants as long as he's legitimately in control.

[Lucky... 0]

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Hugo Chavez quote:

"The old values of individualism, capitalism and egoism must be demolished."


Echoing Che Guevara's quote "Individualism is dead!"


Individualism is the enemy according to these people.

I dislike the thinking that individualism is dead, but I also dislike the concept that it's all about individualism, AKA personal responsibility. That kind of thinking leads to the mentality that people who aren't fiscally fit can fuck themselves, very Darwinian concept from the moral right who denounces that thinking; quit a paradox.

There is a happy medium and gross Capitaism misses it as well as Communism.

[Lucky... 0]

>>>>>>>>Unfortunately, they are often drowned out by the loonies. It seems to be much worse over the last year, hence... my slacking.

We just hope you bless us with your awesome knowledge and leadership..... we're lucky to have you here to keep us in line.

[Elisha 1]

I'm still happy over the King of Spain telling him to Shut up.

[Trent 0]

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We just hope you bless us with your awesome knowledge and leadership..... we're lucky to have you here to keep us in line.

Is that a royal "we"? Who are you speaking for?

Like money in the bank. You, reading what is not there. And of course, having nothing worthwhile to add.

Oh, hello again!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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On the conspiracy side, a few friends have mentioned that they would not be surprised if this election was allowed to go smoothly, resulting in a defeat, so that next time he tries and wins, it'll look more legitimate. They asked, why else all the bluster, threats to the US and opposition, and comments about how he'll accept whatever the people decide? It makes an unfortunate kind of sense and I can really see a guy like Chavez trying to pull something like that.

My sceptical side was thinking the same thing. Specially since this was such a tiny margin and Chavez accepted it so quickly.

[billvon 3,008]

>The people have spoken...

Yep. They went about it the right way, and decided for themselves they didn't want these reforms. Now it's their decision, and they have to make ti work. Contrast that to the problems we'd have had if we imposed this result on them.