Another US Shooting - This time a shopping Mall

[nerdgirl 0]

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1. Uniform nationwide gun laws, no patchwork that allows easy circumvention.

2. Registration. Anyone found with an unregistered gun goes to jail.

3. Gun owners 100% responsible for any harm done with a gun registered to them. Burden of proof on owner to show that precautions against theft and misuse had been taken.

Inconvenient though.

I heartily concur that violence such as that in the most recent mall shooting is a complex problem with complex solution(s).

Are the proposed specific policy recommendations (1, 2, & 3 above) significantly different than strategies that have been tried before?

I don't accept the "guns --> violence (or crime)" correlation, in either direction, i.e., that more guns ='s less violence or more guns ='s more violence. They're independent variables, therefore data to support either hypothesis can be found.

Absolute prohibition of private gun ownership or bullets (if that could somehow be accomplished & which I don't think anyone is suggesting) is an adaptation of nuclear model -- literally trying to identify a critical material. More like biotechnology, guns are dual-use (i.e,. have legal, culturally-valued aplications as well as malfeasant potential).

So a few perceived critical nodes are identified in an attempt to balance/minimize imposition on legal use and still have some way to limit illegal use ... or at provide means to track/identify use.

Policy recommendations w/r/t gun control address the capability portion of risk of violence such as that in the most recent mall shooting.

How do we address the vulnerability and motivation parts of risk?

The other huge complexity in the whole thing is whose perception of risk.

What are we (general US populace "we") missing?

What kind of policy proposals would those opposed to gun control propose to decrease violence such as that in the most recent mall shooting ... beyond increased CCW, which primarily addresses the vulnerability component of risk?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[JohnRich 4]

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1. Uniform nationwide gun laws, no patchwork that allows easy circumvention.

2. Registration. Anyone found with an unregistered gun goes to jail.

3. Gun owners 100% responsible for any harm done with a gun registered to them. Burden of proof on owner to show that precautions against theft and misuse had been taken.

Well, now we understand why you were so hesitant to voice your true opinion.

1) You want rural low-crime areas like Montana, to have the same gun laws as urban high-crime areas like Washington, D.C. That does a disservice to a lot of people. Montana shouldn't have to suffer because of what some criminals do in D.C. Besides, the Constitution doesn't grant the federal government the power to impose state gun laws - only on interstate commerce.

2) Registration doesn't reduce gun crime, proven by numerous examples around the world. Just as auto registration doesn't stop speeding or drunk driving. It's a worthless waste of law enforcement time and money, which could better be spent actually patrolling to catch criminals. The Brits and Canadians are the latest folks to find this out. And people who own unregistered guns who haven't done anything wrong with them, don't deserve to be put in jail.

3) Punishing the innocent once again. Would this philosophy also apply to cars that get stolen? Knives? Liquor? In your zeal to punish gun criminals, you would turn America into a totalitarian state where innocents are swept up into jail.

And of course, none of these proposals are going to stop a suicidal maniac from shooting a bunch of people, like this mall incident. Someone hell-bent on mass murder doesn't care a whit about registration, or who else might get dragged into trouble if he steals their gun.

Yeah, "inconvenient" is a good word for it. Also "unfair", "ridiculous", and "unconstitutional".

It's been enlightening to finally hear your true thoughts. Perhaps you'll go back to being coy again after this, and revert back to just hiding in shadows and sniping at everyone else.

Do you have an Illinois FOID for your shotgun?

[kallend 2,106]

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1. Uniform nationwide gun laws, no patchwork that allows easy circumvention.

2. Registration. Anyone found with an unregistered gun goes to jail.

3. Gun owners 100% responsible for any harm done with a gun registered to them. Burden of proof on owner to show that precautions against theft and misuse had been taken.

Well, now we understand why you were so hesitant to voice your true opinion.

1) You want rural low-crime areas like Montana, to have the same gun laws as urban high-crime areas like Washington, D.C. That does a disservice to a lot of people. Montana shouldn't have to suffer because of what some criminals do in D.C. Besides, the Constitution doesn't grant the federal government the power to impose state gun laws - only on interstate commerce.

2) Registration doesn't reduce gun crime, proven by numerous examples around the world. Just as auto registration doesn't stop speeding or drunk driving. It's a worthless waste of law enforcement time and money, which could better be spent actually patrolling to catch criminals. The Brits and Canadians are the latest folks to find this out.

3) Punishing the innocent once again. Would this philosophy also apply to cars that get stolen? Knives? Liquor? In your zeal to punish gun criminals, you would turn America into a totalitarian state where innocents are swept up into jail.

Yeah, "inconvenient" is a good word for it. Also "unfair", "ridiculous", and "unconstitutional".

It's been enlightening to finally hear your true thoughts. Perhaps you'll go back to being coy again after this.

So what's YOUR proposal, John? Don't like mine, give us yours. Put YOUR money where your mouth is.

Or do you feel quite happy with a few loonies with guns offing a bunch of people from time to time?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Rookie120 0]

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So what's YOUR proposal,

I dont know if any law would or could have stopped the shooting. But going after an innocent person for a crime that he did not commit will not solve it either.

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Or do you feel quite happy with a few loonies with guns offing a bunch of people from time to time?

Not at all. But you seem happy throwing an innocent person in jail without blinkin an eye.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kallend 2,106]

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So what's YOUR proposal,

I dont know if any law would or could have stopped the shooting. But going after an innocent person for a crime that he did not commit will not solve it either.

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Or do you feel quite happy with a few loonies with guns offing a bunch of people from time to time?

Not at all. But you seem happy throwing an innocent person in jail without blinkin an eye.

Negligence in safeguarding a lethal weapon is not innocence. When dealing with guns the standard of care should be set very high.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Rookie120 0]

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Negligence in safeguarding a lethal weapon is not innocence.

So you would go after the owner of the gun? Did he pull the trigger? Did he drive him to the mall? It was the retard 19yo punk who pulled the trigger that killed those people.


So lets say somone broke in my place and stole some firearms from me then went out and waxed 50 down in the streets. You would want to come after me? Nice!

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When dealing with guns the standard of care should be set very high.

And who are you to set those standards? Do you have any data to back up what your spewing at us or are you just shooting from the hip and hope you hit your target?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kallend 2,106]

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Negligence in safeguarding a lethal weapon is not innocence.

So you would go after the owner of the gun? Did he pull the trigger? Did he drive him to the mall? It was the retard 19yo punk who pulled the trigger that killed those people.


So lets say somone broke in my place and stole some firearms from me then went out and waxed 50 down in the streets. You would want to come after me? Nice!

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When dealing with guns the standard of care should be set very high.

And who are you to set those standards? Do you have any data to back up what your spewing at us or are you just shooting from the hip and hope you hit your target?

So what do you think about the father-in-law who didn't secure his gun and allowed this nutcase to get it and go kill a bunch of innocent people? Fine upstanding gun owner who didn't do anything wrong?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Rookie120 0]

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So what do you think about the father-in-law who didn't secure his gun and allowed this nutcase to get it and go kill a bunch of innocent people? Fine upstanding gun owner who didn't do anything wrong?

Did the father pull the trigger? Why are you trying to shift the blame from the shaggy hair punk to the dad? Is it because the kicked suck started his gun and offed himself? Well he's dead. We have to blame someone who still has a pulse. Hey lets go after the dad. How do you know that the gun wasnt in a safe? Maybe the guy had a key to it. Maybe it was a case with a glass front and the kid broke into it. We just dont know exactly what happened before he went on a rampage.


My dad never had his firearms locked up. Did that make him a irresponsible gun owner? Even when he did get a safe I knew the combination to it.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kallend 2,106]

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So what do you think about the father-in-law who didn't secure his gun and allowed this nutcase to get it and go kill a bunch of innocent people? Fine upstanding gun owner who didn't do anything wrong?

Did the father pull the trigger? Why are you trying to shift the blame from the shaggy hair punk to the dad? Is it because the kicked suck started his gun and offed himself? Well he's dead. We have to blame someone who still has a pulse. Hey lets go after the dad. How do you know that the gun wasnt in a safe? Maybe the guy had a key to it. Maybe it was a case with a glass front and the kid broke into it. We just dont know exactly what happened before he went on a rampage.


My dad never had his firearms locked up. Did that make him a irresponsible gun owner? Even when he did get a safe I knew the combination to it.

With rights come responsibilities. Have free speech and accept the consequences of what you say. Own a gun and accept the consequences if you allow it to fall into the wrong hands.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Rookie120 0]

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With rights come responsibilities. Have free speech and accept the consequences of what you say. Own a gun and accept the consequences if you allow it doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

So I own a gun, it gets stolen and used in a crime and it is my fault? Am I hearing you correctly?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kallend 2,106]

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With rights come responsibilities. Have free speech and accept the consequences of what you say. Own a gun and accept the consequences if you allow it to fall into the wrong hands.

So I own a gun, it gets stolen and used in a crime and it is my fault? Am I hearing you correctly?

If you were negligent in not securing it properly, yes. With some 300,000 gun thefts occurring annually it is clear to anyone with more than half a brain that guns are attractive to thieves, and stolen guns are commonly used in crimes including homicides.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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Now, should you be able to change the US constitution Article 2, then the conversation begins anew. But that is another thread

Edited to add,

I respect your view, I just dont agree. Thanks for the honest reply

Nothing I wrote is contrary to the 2nd Amendment. Uniform laws aren't, registration isn't, responsibility for misuse isn't.

Because of the point I made about step 1 leading to confiscation I will humbly disagree

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,063]

>So I own a gun, it gets stolen and used in a crime and it is my fault?

If you are careless about it, then you are partly responsible, yes.

Imagine you dig a big hole in your sidewalk to fix your sprinkler system. You do not mark or cover it. At night someone walks along the sidewalk and falls in accidentally; they break their back.

Did you cause the accident?

Are you at all responsible for the accident?

[rushmc 23]

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So what's YOUR proposal,

I dont know if any law would or could have stopped the shooting. But going after an innocent person for a crime that he did not commit will not solve it either.

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Or do you feel quite happy with a few loonies with guns offing a bunch of people from time to time?

Not at all. But you seem happy throwing an innocent person in jail without blinkin an eye.

Negligence in safeguarding a lethal weapon is not innocence. When dealing with guns the standard of care should be set very high.

And who good Dr should define "negligence" aplying to this (your) standard?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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With rights come responsibilities. Have free speech and accept the consequences of what you say. Own a gun and accept the consequences if you allow it to fall into the wrong hands.

So I own a gun, it gets stolen and used in a crime and it is my fault? Am I hearing you correctly?

If you were negligent in not securing it properly, yes. With some 300,000 gun thefts occurring annually it is clear to anyone with more than half a brain that guns are attractive to thieves, and stolen guns are commonly used in crimes including homicides.

Once again, are you the one to define negligance? I would think that in a loosly applied situation you would not want a jury deciding would you?

Oh, and by the way. anything you or I may have that a perp does not have would look "attractive" to them. That is why they are thieves. They dont want to work or pay for things.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Rookie120 0]

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If you were negligent in not securing it properly,

Lets say I have a loaded pistol in my drawer next to my bed. Is that negligent if someone breaks in and steals it in your world?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,063]

>And who good Dr should define "negligence" aplying to this (your) standard?

A DA. The final decision is made by a jury.

[Rookie120 0]

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Imagine you dig a big hole in your sidewalk to fix your sprinkler system. You do not mark or cover it. At night someone walks along the sidewalk and falls in accidentally; they break their back.

Did you cause the accident?

Are you at all responsible for the accident?

What a shitty analogy but I will respond anyways. The difference is I chose to dig the hole and it was my choice not to cover it. A guy breaks into my home and steals a pistol is out of my control.

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Did you cause the accident?

Did I cause the shooting? How would that be my fault. You guys are really trying to stretch this one.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

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A DA. The final decision is made by a jury.

There has to be a standard for the DA to go by though. At least I think there would have to be. Where is Lawrocket when I really need him?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,063]

>The difference is I chose to dig the hole and it was my choice not to cover it.

And it was his walking into it that caused the accident directly. You contributed to it by carelessly leaving it unmarked.

> A guy breaks into my home and steals a pistol is out of my control.

If you leave your front door open, your drawer unlocked, and your gun unsecured and loaded, then it is NOT out of your control. You chose to get a gun and leave it in a place that was easy to access.

On the other hand, if your front door was locked, your gun was in a safe and the guy broke in and got it anway - then you did indeed take precautions to ensure that it would not be used in a crime, and would not be held at all responsible.

The eqivalent here would be putting sawhorses and warning tape around the hole. If the guy still falls in - you did what you could to prevent it.

[rushmc 23]

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>And who good Dr should define "negligence" aplying to this (your) standard?

A DA. The final decision is made by a jury.

Thanks for making MY point

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Rookie120 0]

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If you leave your front door open, your drawer unlocked, and your gun unsecured and loaded, then it is NOT out of your control. You chose to get a gun and leave it in a place that was easy to access.

Sounds like you now want to control how I do things in my own home. What else would you like to do. A guy goes and steals a gun and it is the owner who is at fault. Good Grief!

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You chose to get a gun and leave it in a place that was easy to access.

Easy? It's in my damn home! Now if I left it in the front yard for the neighbor kids then I might be on your side here.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[rushmc 23]

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>And who good Dr should define "negligence" aplying to this (your) standard?

A DA. The final decision is made by a jury.

To add to my earlier comment;

This is a major part of the reason that medical costs are so highand airplanes are so exspensive. REDICULAS LIABILITY EXPOSURE. If the dam laws and lawyers were not they way they are in this country then maybe, just maybe, we could go another direction.

Example

A utility company suppys natural gas to customer. Only to the meter. Another company, that went out of business 20 years ago, made flex conectors (from internal piping to appliances) that leaked. One of those conectors leaks, causes and explsion killing some people. The estate sues the utlity saying they should have known that piping leaked. (remember, the gas company only goes to the meter and they will not turn on the gas until an inspector signs off that the piping is to code and, the flex connector we are talking about was code approved)

The jury awards the family million and the suprem court of the state uphold the award.

Ya, trust the defintiion of "negligance" to the DA (the Duke case comes to mind) and a jury

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Rookie120 0]

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The eqivalent here would be putting sawhorses and warning tape around the hole. If the guy still falls in - you did what you could to prevent it.

That still doesnt mean they wont sue you. My childhood neighbor shoveled his sidewalk, threw salt down and some jerkoff slipped and fell and still files a lawsuit. If someone sees a way to make a quick buck they will go for it.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,063]

>Sounds like you now want to control how I do things in my own home.

Yes. If you have some kids over, and leave a loaded gun in an open drawer, and he kills himself with it - you should go to jail for reckless endangerment.

>What else would you like to do.

Oh, the basics. If you like to play with matches and you burn down your house - and three other houses - you get a day in court. If you leave guns lying around and your door open, and someone walks in and takes one - you get to explain to a jury why you thought that was not reckless. At best you lose your right to own guns, since you have proven you cannot take care of them.

A gun is not like a VCR. It cannot be treated the same way. It is a deadly weapon, and cannot be left lying around.