Another US Shooting - This time a shopping Mall

[rushmc 23]

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>Sounds like you now want to control how I do things in my own home.

Yes. If you have some kids over, and leave a loaded gun in an open drawer, and he kills himself with it - you should go to jail for reckless endangerment.

>What else would you like to do.

Oh, the basics. If you like to play with matches and you burn down your house - and three other houses - you get a day in court. If you leave guns lying around and your door open, and someone walks in and takes one - you get to explain to a jury why you thought that was not reckless. At best you lose your right to own guns, since you have proven you cannot take care of them.

A gun is not like a VCR. It cannot be treated the same way. It is a deadly weapon, and cannot be left lying around.

Typical, you move the target

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Rookie120 0]

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Yes. If you have some kids over, and leave a loaded gun in an open drawer, and he kills himself with it - you should go to jail for reckless endangerment.

Ok I might agree with you on that one.

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Oh, the basics. If you like to play with matches and you burn down your house - and three other houses - you get a day in court.

Thats nice, now back to the gun subject.

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If you leave guns lying around and your door open, and someone walks in and takes one - you get to explain to a jury why you thought that was not reckless.

Ah how about this for starters. They were in my home! Why do people never blame the people who do the crime? They always go after someone else. Somebody shoots up a mall, sue Glock. Some asshole driving 100mph and flips his Tahoe, sue GM. Have a reaction to a drug, sue the drug CO. Never go after the people who made the bad decision. If the big bad company didnt exist they couldnt have done what they did. I dont understand your thinking.

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A gun is not like a VCR. It cannot be treated the same way. It is a deadly weapon, and cannot be left lying around.

You make it sound like I would have left it laying on the front lawn like a piece of garden equipment. They came into my home and took it and that is somehow my fault?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,076]

>They were in my home! Why do people never blame the people who do the crime?

If you left your gun out, someone took it and killed someone with it, they are to blame for the crime. You are to blame for being careless with where you left your gun.

>You make it sound like I would have left it laying on the front lawn like
>a piece of garden equipment. They came into my home and took it and
>that is somehow my fault?

If your front door is open and it's in your kitchen drawer, drawer open, loaded - then yes, you failed to secure a dangerous weapon. If your front door is locked, and it's in a locked drawer unloaded - then no, you did what you could to secure it.

[Skyrad 0]

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this person was OUTSIDE the "normal" American society standards

You have standards over there???

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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The question becomes if others, specially those on the pro-gun side of the gun debate, think there is a problem at all.

There is a problem. But I don't believe the answer is banning the legal ownership of firearms. It might be the "easy" answer. ("Just make them all illegal" - right? Easy.) Wrong.

1. Who pays for the money invested into said firearms? Gov't kicks in $100 per gun? One of my scopes (just the glass) is worth 6k. Nope, a cute lil benjamin is NOT going to make me happy. And NO, I'm not going to surrender my property at such a devalued rate.

2. Such a program could encourage theft under a privateer type thought process - "break into this house and get his/her firearms, then turn them over to the gov't, collect my money and feel like I did a 'good thing' for society."

3. Do you REALLY think it's reasonable to try to collect ALL firearms in the US (even those illegally owned)?!

confiscation of legally owned property will not fix this problem.
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As John often points out the UK has proven that point. Our gun crime continues to rise while the only people affected by the ban on SLPs and Semi Automatic rifles (appart from rimfire) are the law abiding subjects of the UK.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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[Skyrad 0]

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BAN GUNS, BAN GUNS, BAN GUNS....and KNIFES and KNIFES and and .....HAIRBRUSHES, HAIRBRUSHES BAN HAIRBRUSHES!!!

While you're at it, might as well ban pens and pencils.

And all other pointy sticks!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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IAnyone who has ever written anything to the effect of "they will always get guns so we needn't do anything" is in denial.

I'm not in denial. I just honestly don't think banning them will produce the results desired. And (quite honestly) I don't want to live in that "safe" but "taken care of" society.

("Ahhh.... susie, give me that dangerous gun. here... have a cookie. Don't you feel better")

Susie???? Who the hell is Susie and why isn't she baking cookies rather than stuffing her face with them?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kallend 2,107]

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If you were negligent in not securing it properly,

Lets say I have a loaded pistol in my drawer next to my bed. Is that negligent if someone breaks in and steals it in your world?

If the US Air Force cannot account for some of its weapons (hint - Minot to Barksdale last September), should those responsible be punished?

The Air Force thought so.

If you can't be responsible for the security of your weapon, you shouldn't own one.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

...... With some 300,000 gun thefts occurring annually it is clear to anyone with more than half a brain that guns are attractive to thieves, and stolen guns are commonly used in crimes including homicides.

[rushmc 23]

Never mind, I think I found out where the number came from.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

This should REALY add fuel to the debate this AM. Good Dr, if this is true, more may be able to be done than I thought

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DE3DF113DF933A05757C0A96F958260


The only danger is WHAT should be done

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Rookie120 0]

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If the US Air Force cannot account for some of its weapons (hint - Minot to Barksdale last September), should those responsible be punished?

The Air Force thought so.

If you can't be responsible for the security of your weapon, you shouldn't own one.

How do you twist my guns to the Air Force and it nukes? You should quit and become a lawyer. You always seems to be able to twist anything.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kallend 2,107]

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If the US Air Force cannot account for some of its weapons (hint - Minot to Barksdale last September), should those responsible be punished?

The Air Force thought so.

If you can't be responsible for the security of your weapon, you shouldn't own one.

How do you twist my guns to the Air Force and it nukes? You should quit and become a lawyer. You always seems to be able to twist anything.

Deadly weapons are deadly weapons and their custodians have to be responsible for their security.

If you can't be responsible for the security of your weapon, you shouldn't own one.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,107]

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This should REALY add fuel to the debate this AM. Good Dr, if this is true, more may be able to be done than I thought

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DE3DF113DF933A05757C0A96F958260


The only danger is WHAT should be done

Why is taking action to reduce homicides a "danger"?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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This should REALY add fuel to the debate this AM. Good Dr, if this is true, more may be able to be done than I thought

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DE3DF113DF933A05757C0A96F958260


The only danger is WHAT should be done

Why is taking action to reduce homicides a "danger"?

Why the hell do you have to twist something like this? I bring up something with a little diffent POV and you have to make some coy smart ass comment to swrew witht he context. You want to talk about this or is just making yourself look cute all you want to do?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

So, I know this is older but this is the part that caught my eve in the article.

Mr. Schumer found that although about 80 percent of the 104,000 licensed gun dealers did not have a single crime gun traced to their stores last year, 1,160 dealers were the source of 34,626 guns seized in crimes. And 0.1 percent of the dealers, or 137 of them, accounted for more than 13,000 guns traced to crimes in 1998. Some of these dealers each sold more than 1,000 guns that were used in crimes from 1996 through 1998.


Now, this may have been dealt with by now but to me it says two things.

Bad dealers cause more of the problems (than I thought anyway) and stolen guns my be less than you good Dr would like to think

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Rookie120 0]

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Why is taking action to reduce homicides a "danger"?

Because people come up with knee jerk reactions that wont change a thing in the real world. But it makes them feel like they did good for the world and they sleep better. Even though there action was nothing but lip service.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kallend 2,107]

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Why is taking action to reduce homicides a "danger"?

Because people come up with knee jerk reactions that wont change a thing in the real world. But it makes them feel like they did good for the world and they sleep better. Even though there action was nothing but lip service.

If you don't think you can secure your own weapon what use would you be in a militia (Ref. 2nd Amendment). Why should the rest of us trust you with it?

The biggest knee jerk is the gun owners' immediate dismissal of any proposal that might inconvenience them.

WHAT DO YOU THINK should be done to keep guns out of the hands of nutters and felons. A real proposal, please.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,107]

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So, I know this is older but this is the part that caught my eve in the article.

Mr. Schumer found that although about 80 percent of the 104,000 licensed gun dealers did not have a single crime gun traced to their stores last year, 1,160 dealers were the source of 34,626 guns seized in crimes. And 0.1 percent of the dealers, or 137 of them, accounted for more than 13,000 guns traced to crimes in 1998. Some of these dealers each sold more than 1,000 guns that were used in crimes from 1996 through 1998.


Now, this may have been dealt with by now but to me it says two things.

Bad dealers cause more of the problems (than I thought anyway) and stolen guns my be less than you good Dr would like to think

SO we need to address 2 issues. The presence of a second issue doesn't make the first one go away, we still have 300,000+ guns stolen ever year so that's 300,000 guns going into the hands of felons every year from "law abiding gun owners".

WHAT WOULD YOU DO to prevent nutters and felons from getting guns?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,107]

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Never mind, I think I found out where the number came from.

Clever clever!

And, of course, that's a low-ball number because people with illegal guns don't report their theft to the police unless they're really stupid as well as criminals.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,107]

In this post 2 pages back I asked you for your suggestions. Still waiting. Don't you have any ideas of your own?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,107]

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I already stated that I don't know of a solution that would be acceptable to those who are not prepared to have ANY inconvenience to themselves.

Why don't you quit beating around the bush, in your characteristic fashion, and just say what you want to say.

What solution do you propose to stop crazy people from getting guns? Convenient or not. Spit it out. Dare to put your idea up for public scrutiny.

If you don't have the guts to say it, then quit wasting our time with your coy games.

Well John, I gave you my answer. How about yours, or are you just playing a coy game with us?

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Give us a proposal to keep guns out of the hands of nutters and felons.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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Never mind, I think I found out where the number came from.

Clever clever!

And, of course, that's a low-ball number because people with illegal guns don't report their theft to the police unless they're really stupid as well as criminals.

What the hell does this mean I found a source that suports your assurtion. It that bad?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Rookie120 0]

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In this post 2 pages back I asked you for your suggestions. Still waiting. Don't you have any ideas of your own?

There are over 8,000 gun laws in the books already. So that doesnt seem like the answer. How about no more low ball prison terms for the convicted. So many crimes are made and then 2 years later the ass is back out on the streets causing problems again. Unlike you who think going after the person who didnt pull the trigger will solve anything. Putting the person who pulled the trigger in jail for good would be a start.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[rushmc 23]

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I already stated that I don't know of a solution that would be acceptable to those who are not prepared to have ANY inconvenience to themselves.

Why don't you quit beating around the bush, in your characteristic fashion, and just say what you want to say.

What solution do you propose to stop crazy people from getting guns? Convenient or not. Spit it out. Dare to put your idea up for public scrutiny.

If you don't have the guts to say it, then quit wasting our time with your coy games.

Well John, I gave you my answer. How about yours, or are you just playing a coy game with us?

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Give us a proposal to keep guns out of the hands of nutters and felons.

Gun dealers, bad ones, can be dealt with. Serial numbers can show where the guns first entered the public. Registration, to show who currently has what, will do nothing and would be a dangerous first step IMO.

As the article said, a small small subset of the dealers sold a large number of guns used in crimes. Deal with them.

As for gun crimes as a whole? I think guns crimes are a symptom of an issue (which is another thread that I am sure you and I would disagree over) Trying to cure a symptom will not cure the disease.

I do not know what will work. I "think" I know what will not work.

Some of what I assume you think needs to be done should only be done after a change to the constitution. (and I know you do not agree with this either)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln