Close call...

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

No 4-way team member wants to try to locate a 5th person before choosing their tracking direction, so you simply remove yourself from the skydive before they have to

That's quite correct... you really don't have time to look for someone above you at breakoff, and even if you find them you can't keep track (pun intended) of them.

Also, not everyone tracks the same... I track very flat, so even though he started above me, I passed him on-level. So if your lurker is a great tracker, breaking early can work, otherwise it's probably a good idea to have verticle separation also.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

I understand that and I realize I was at fault...

look, people I'm not trying to assign blame to anyone but myself I'm merely putting out this as a no shit this is something that can happen and you need to account for everything.

The "blame", if there is to be any, would have to be distributed evenly between all parties involved.

Basically, we didn't start with the best plan, and it (nearly) went wrong in the worst way possible. Yes, it is the higher man's responsibility to make sure his airspace is clear, but when you're using an unfamiliar scheme, that doesn't always work. Plus, I was obviously WELL behind him when he dumped. So even if he was looking back, I might not have been obviously visible.

The lesson is to have a good plan, and to understand the risks involved in your plan. Videos like this one, by the way, are why I no longer do tracking dives... double that speed and imagine the disaster.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[skydance1954 0]

As the prime vidiot on this load, I have to take some of the responsibiliity for the near incident. The plan we utilized on the first dive was one that I've used with other video lurkers in the past and it's worked very well. The factor that I didn't take into consideration was the difference in experience levels between the other lurkers that we'd had along for the ride, and Icon.

He'd not done something like this before and he was not aware of the speeds that these particular team members, especially skyjunkie, would be reaching during their tracking. On the other hand, I was fully aware of both factors, but didn't suggest he leave earlier than team breakoff altitude. I did mention that he should leave "just ahead" of the team's breakoff, but didn't stress it. With my experience, I should have seen the possibility and adjusted the dive accordingly. As mentioned repeatedly, we did make the adjustments on the second dive and all was well.

So, to make this clear, I had the center, the team was to break between 4 and 4.5, and Icon left at 5 on the second dive. On both dives he was positioned at 90 degrees to my left, so that he could have the low Fall sun at his back. I knew where he was, but of course the team did not.

So good lessons for all, and Icon is to be commended for sharing this with the world so that others can also learn from it.

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[skydance1954 0]

Standard procedure for a videoman is for him to go to the center and pull high, while everyone else tracks away and pulls lower. The logic for this is that the formation guys can't know where the videoman is, because they're concentrating on each other, and don't really know where the videoman is. And they may not have time to figure it out at breakoff time. So, why not go to the center and pull early, and eliminate all that confusion of having someone high and tracking with everyone else?

[Avion 0]

Good read. I like this idea of letting the two video guys work things out vertically, instead of introducing a fifth track.

"Aber, ich wiess, das ich wiess nichts!"

Quote

I've taken the middle before on a similar dive, but I took it to the basement. With the group breaking at 4500 and the video pulling right away I thought it was fairly safe to stay under the group (I was shooting looking up on my back) and just suck it down to a 2000 foot opening. Staying on my back through their break off let me verify the camera flyer had a good canopy and that everyone had started tracking away.

[riggerrob 643]

Staying on my back through their break off let me verify the camera flyer had a good canopy and that everyone had started tracking away.

[skydance1954 0]

Quote

Staying on my back through their break off let me verify the camera flyer had a good canopy and that everyone had started tracking away.

[PhreeZone 20]

This gets back to the arguement on tandem videos about if the video guy should track or not. Arguements go both ways on what to do if you are under deploying tandems if you should track away as they pull or if its better to stay where you are. Once a canopy is open a few seconds of canopy flight can make up a decent distance and can neglect any tracking on the video flyers part. Then again if the tandem ends up having a streamer they are falling stright back down right where they were. Spinners can toss them anywhere in the sky so tracking or not its a crap shoot as to where the tandem will be tossed out at. The good news is tandems are deploying at 5500 and most times video isn't until 3500 so thats a a lot of vertical seperation that is made up. And lots of time for the tandem to chop and pull their reserve.

I've talked to some of the video flyers that have done very large formations with multiple camera flyers and I know they are deploy over the top of the tracking jumpers and base. They use a combo of vertical seperation and sectoring to pull in the right order while the rest of the video continues to fall until their apointed time. On the JFTC jumps I am pretty sure that Norman stayed in the center after shooting it on his back. There are some shots I've seen from someone that filmed a very large formation from under that was able to capture each row tracking off and still showed the base above and a video.

Vertical seperation can work in the right situations (not even most, its very few it can work for), in fact it is recommended at almost every night jump to have staggered pull altitudes even in the same formation to avoid having groups tracking into each other in the darkness.

In my case if the top man took a delay from ~5000 with a canopy until my 2000 feet deployment there might have been bigger issues there. Luckly he hasn't had a cutaway for like 2500 jumps

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

This gets back to the arguement on tandem videos about if the video guy should track or not. Arguements go both ways on what to do if you are under deploying tandems if you should track away as they pull or if its better to stay where you are. Once a canopy is open a few seconds of canopy flight can make up a decent distance and can neglect any tracking on the video flyers part. Then again if the tandem ends up having a streamer they are falling stright back down right where they were. Spinners can toss them anywhere in the sky so tracking or not its a crap shoot as to where the tandem will be tossed out at. The good news is tandems are deploying at 5500 and most times video isn't until 3500 so thats a a lot of vertical seperation that is made up. And lots of time for the tandem to chop and pull their reserve.

It might seem like a lot of time/distance, but you'd be surprised. Phree, I don't know if you were even jumping yet at the time, but we had a near-incident with my dad flying video and James Nazar as a TM. James had a reeeallly long snivel (read: 2000+ feet), and passed the video guy after he had opened, resulting in a near-collision. Since it was a snivel and not a streamer, James held it for longer than normal, but the point here is that you never know what could happen, so it's better to put yourself in a location where the odds are better.

And yes, a wacky tandem spinner and/or the camera guy opening and heading back at the tandem could negate the benefit of the track, but the odds are much reduced. Basically, instead of having one thing go wrong (tandem has malfunction), you have to have at least two go wrong (tandem has malfunction AND cameraman has a 180 opening, or tandem has spinner AND happens to spin in just the wrong direction). Plus, any competent cameraman ought to be aware of his heading during deployment and will know if his opening rotated him back into the tandem, and can in most cases get the canopy turned back around.

100+ ways with multiple camera guys and multiple layers of breakoff are a special case... what's best practice on those dives is not necessarily applicable to anything else.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."