Huckabee

[rehmwa 2]

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To say that they only made laws against murder because the bible told them to is just stupid though.

so would you say that the commandments might accurately represent a consensus view of what most in the population would consider right from wrong then?

and maybe that's all that the man made tool of religion (functionally) really intended

the rest is just window dressing and means for odd men that like to wear tall hats or beanies just use to get cushy jobs

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[airdvr 210]

To say that they only made laws against murder because the bible told them to is just stupid though.

When did anyone say that?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airdvr 210]

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To say that they only made laws against murder because the bible told them to is just stupid though.

so would you say that the commandments might accurately represent a consensus view of what most in the population would consider right from wrong then?

and maybe that's all that the man made tool of religion (functionally) really intended

the rest is just window dressing and means for odd men that like to wear tall hats or beanies just use to get cushy jobs

Ding ding ding...we have a winner!

The point I'm trying to make is that you cannot separate church and state in an ideological fashion. Every society has used some form of religion to base their ideas of law on.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[nerdgirl 0]

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This is not Theocracy lets make sure it stays that way.

Concur heartily!!!

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Funny how folks mis-understand the whole "Separation" thing. Take a look at your money...it doesn't say "In Government We Trust".

Was not “In God We Trust” added to both the Pledge of Allegiance and paper currency as a reaction to McCarthyism in the 1950s? Was it not added to the coinage in the Civil War as another reactionary move?

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I think most people are mistaken when they think religion and government are meant to be seperate.

I think a significant portion of late 20th Century/early 21st Century America are mistaken regarding the role they perceive for "religion" -- which is usually code/metaphor for mainstream to conservative Protestant Christianity, not Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Islam, or Wicca -- in government and law.

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Is there anyone here who could say the US system of laws is not designed after the bible?...or at least the 10 commandments?

The US system of law owes more to the Magna Carta and English common law, as well as Enlightenment principles, which were largely originated and promulgated by the French.

The Iroquois Confederacy’s “Great Law of Peace”, a participatory democracy that guaranteed freedom of religion, expression and other rights later incorporated in the U.S. Constitution, was another influence on the Founding Fathers. One notable difference was that the Iroquois ‘Constitution,’ dating back to at least 1400 AD (& perhaps as early as 1100 AD), extended rights to women.

Was President Jefferson influenced by his Christian deist beliefs (which more closely resemble the Unitarians) and practice as an Anglican in writing the Constitution? Of course.
Was that the only influence? Of course not.
President Jefferson wrote "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.”

Did his observation/interpretation of problems lead to the “no religious test” clause of the Constitution, i.e, “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States” (Article VI, Section 3)? One can speculate.

What inspired President George Washington’s letter to the Jews of Rhode Island, in which he wrote about separation of church and state:

“The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for giving to Mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship.

“It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens."

I speculate that a significantly under-recognized reason why the US Constitution -- an amazing document im-ever-ho -- has been so successful for so long (relative to other governance documents) is its foundation in civil (not religious) law and the wisdom of the drafters to suspend their own egos and adapt/adopt/borrow from multiple sources!

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Darius11 12]

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Is there anyone here who could say the US system of laws is not dsigned after the bible?...or at least the 10 commandments?

This is what you said.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[jakee 1,500]

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ANcient Egypt...Laws were based on Ma'at Ma'at did not exist until Ra rose from the waters of Nun (various gods and goddesses of Chaos). She was known as a Neter goddess, and as such, was described as a daughter of Ra. But without Ma'at, Egyptians believed that Nun would reclaim the universe. She was also thought to be the wife of Thoth, moon god and god of the wisdom.

Do you think that really happened? That the Egyptians got their laws from a Goddess? Or is it more likely that the laws were a human invention ascribed to the Goddess?

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As a civilization contemporary with Egyptian civilization, Mesopotamia developed education quite similar to that of its counterpart with respect to its purpose and training. Formal education was practical and aimed to train scribes and priests. It was extended from basic reading, writing, and religion to higher learning in law, medicine, and astrology. Generally, youth of the upper classes were prepared to become scribes, who ranged from copyists to librarians and teachers. The schools for priests were said to be as numerous as temples. This indicates not only the thoroughness but also the supremacy of priestly education. Very little is known about higher education, but the advancement of the priestly work sheds light upon the extensive nature of intellectual pursuit.

Irrelevant - don't know why you copied that passage, says nothing about the basis for their laws.

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The Shang worshipped a figure they called "Shang Ti," or "Lord on High." This supreme god ruled over lesser gods of the sun, the moon, the wind, the rain, and other natural forces and places. Shang-Ti also regulated human affairs as well as ruling over the material universe. This dual function would, in the Chou dynasty, be attributed to a more abstract figure, "t'ien," or "Heaven." The Shang also believed that their ancestors dwelled in heaven after their death and continued to show an interest in their familiy and descendants. The obligations within the family included, therefore, the ancestors. Failing in one's duties to the ancestors could bring all sorts of disaster on a family

Irrelevant again, does not mention laws. Are you paying attention?

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My point is that every society had laws based on their religion.

And where do you think those religions got their laws from? Think about it for a moment. It obviously isn't from divine inspiration, otherwise how would you explain so many different religions around the world all forbidding similar things? What else is left but human invention?

Religions enshrine laws that were invented by humans. Your examples (well, example) only serve to re-inforce my point. The bible is not the ultimate source of western morality, the bible enshrines the morality that existed during the time of its writing.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,500]

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so would you say that the commandments might accurately represent a consensus view of what most in the population would consider right from wrong then?

No. A full half of them are completely unrelated to right and wrong.

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and maybe that's all that the man made tool of religion (functionally) really intended

It would be nice if that were the case, but unfortunately a false and unsupportable view point. I would go so far as to suggest you have it completely backwards. Morality (in the way humans should interact with each other) was only tacked on to religion as an after-thought to the way humans should interact with whichever god was being pushed.

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the rest is just window dressing and means for odd men that like to wear tall hats or beanies just use to get cushy jobs

Those odd men are religion.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,500]

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To say that they only made laws against murder because the bible told them to is just stupid though.

When did anyone say that?

You did.

Me: Are you honestly going to suggest to me that the founding fathers needed to look in the Bible to figure out that murder, theft and perjury would be bad for the stability of society? I think not, my friend.


You: Where do you think they got that idea?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[airdvr 210]

Do you think that really happened? That the Egyptians got their laws from a Goddess? Or is it more likely that the laws were a human invention ascribed to the Goddess?

Irrelevant - don't know why you copied that passage, says nothing about the basis for their laws.

Irrelevant again, does not mention laws. Are you paying attention?

Umm..yes. I am paying attention.

I'm saying religion was present. I think it influenced their laws. Another poster had said earlier that there were laws prior to religion. Can't seem to find that civilization...the one that had no religion.

Jakee, does this thread scare you? Why are you throwing the little jabs? AFAIK, you're the only person who has posted with psuedo PA's. WHy can't you just discuss it without mixing in the insults?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[jakee 1,500]

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I'm saying religion was present. I think it influenced their laws.

Ok, then where do you think those laws came from? As I said, it obviously cannot be divine inspiration since so many different religions espouse similar basic laws. So why do you think a religious edifice is neccesary to recognise what is bad or good and what is detrimental to society and what is supportive of society?

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Another poster had said earlier that there were laws prior to religion.

I think the knowledge that (within a social unit) murder is a bad thing existed before there even was any civilisation to speak of.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,008]

>Where do you think they got that idea? You think they just woke up one
>morning and said "ya know, murder, theft, and perjury would be bad".

You think that the US before the constitution had no laws? That whenever someone committed a crime, they called a priest and opened a bible to look up the law?

The declaration of independence and constitution were written within a framework of existing english law, based on a lot of other documents, and written by several people. Some of them - notably George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine - were quite vehement in their demands that organized religion NOT be given a place in the constitution. Fortunately for us, they were successful.

>It's based upon religion. It's based upon knowing that murder, theft, and
>perjury are wrong. Where do you suppose they got those ideas?

Same place anyone else does. Societies not based on christianity have similar laws. You can't really have any sort of civilized society if murder is legal, nor a working economy if theft is legal.

Indeed, I would argue that religion is based on our perception of morality, and thus religions evolve based on how our morality evolves. You need only read Leviticus to realize that all christians are "moral relativists" whose perception of right and wrong changes with time.

[BIGUN 1,326]

To me, one's faith or classification of church has about as much bearing on their ability to hold the office of President as much as one's faith has as much bearing to hold the position of CEO at a major corporation. I just want to know they'll do a good job for the benefit of the whole country. It's kinda like a skydiving Instructor. What bearing does an Instructor's faith have on their professional ability?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[rehmwa 2]

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What bearing does an Instructor's faith have on their professional ability?

Apparently, it really depends on how deeply one is wading in their personal, unfounded stereotypes on the subject.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,500]

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To me, one's faith or classification of church has about as much bearing on their ability to hold the office of President as much as one's faith has as much bearing to hold the position of CEO at a major corporation. I just want to know they'll do a good job for the benefit of the whole country. It's kinda like a skydiving Instructor. What bearing does an Instructor's faith have on their professional ability?

What about when they want to actively push their religion on to the nation?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[quade 4]

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How the hell can any person that we'd consider to be experienced enough to be President of the United States, OR HIS SPEECH WRITING STAFF OR ADVISORS, not understand the implications of this previous paragraph?

I'm amazed that you zeroed in o that quote when the article also contains these gems: . . .

Well, like I said, I already thought he was dangerous because of his views about melding government with religion. I just didn't previously know he and his staff had such a lack of understanding about references to recent history.

In other words, I thought he was dangerous before, but now I think he and is staff are not careful with language. The current President has a huge issue with language and that's gotten us into quite a bit of trouble.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,008]

>It's kinda like a skydiving Instructor. What bearing does an
>Instructor's faith have on their professional ability?

Agreed. As long as they're not doing anything stupid with it (like requiring everyone to convert to their religion before level 4, or to pray before they get in the door) it doesn't matter one bit what their religion is.

[Shotgun 1]

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To me, one's faith or classification of church has about as much bearing on their ability to hold the office of President as much as one's faith has as much bearing to hold the position of CEO at a major corporation. I just want to know they'll do a good job for the benefit of the whole country. It's kinda like a skydiving Instructor. What bearing does an Instructor's faith have on their professional ability?

I'm a little more concerned with the religious beliefs of the president of my country than I am with the religious beliefs of a skydiving instructor, seeing as a skydiving instructor's beliefs are not likely to affect me in any way. The religion that the presidential candidates choose to associate themselves with tells me at least a little bit about who they are. It may not be a major factor in who I choose to vote for, but it's something that I do pay attention to.

[Royd 0]

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But now I also think his knowledge of basic world events is also too narrow.

I thought that we didn't want a president who stuck his nose in other nations' business? That ought to work out perfectly.

[Royd 0]

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I believe the founding father did not want a president who is influenced or makes his/her decisions on what their god tells them too.

I recall a picture of George Washington kneeling to pray in the snow at Valley Forge. Do you think that was just a figment of someone's imagination?

[Lindsey 0]

I thought that we didn't want a president who stuck his nose in other nations' business?

especially when his knowledge of basic world events is too narrow.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Royd 0]

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A stable society cannot exist without those kind of laws. Anyone who needs a bible to tell them that is a complete moron.

Anyone who needs a written law to tell them not to steal, kill, or cheat is a complete moron. Let's not waste time and money with all of this lawmaking BS.

[quade 4]

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But now I also think his knowledge of basic world events is also too narrow.

I thought that we didn't want a president who stuck his nose in other nations' business? That ought to work out perfectly.

No. There is a world of difference between being knowledgeable about things and acting on things a person isn't knowledgeable about.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

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I recall a picture of George Washington kneeling to pray in the snow at Valley Forge. Do you think that was just a figment of someone's imagination?

I wonder what brand of camera they used.

If I dont see a picture.. it didnt happen.

[Lindsey 0]

I think that there's no doubt that George Washington preyed. Slave ownership is so wrong. Had a great grandfather of some degree who was hung for not fighting for the Confederacy because he didn't believe in slavery. So even back then a man with principles could resist the urge to own people.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Royd 0]

I recall a picture of George Washington kneeling to pray in the snow at Valley Forge. Do you think that was just a figment of someone's imagination?

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I wonder what brand of camera they used.

If I dont see a picture.. it didnt happen.

So, for you, history didn't start until the mid 1800's?