1000-Yard Shooting Accuracy

[JohnRich 4]

Warpedskydiver's post about his FAL accuracy motivated me to post this, to see what I could learn from the opinions of others.

Two weekends ago I had a 1,000-yard match, shot with my .308 M1A (M-14), using iron sights and a front rest.

I've spent a year trying to get a load that works well, going from 168-grain bullets to 175's. Switching from IMR-4895 powder to Reloder-15. And experimenting with different powder charges, to keep the bullets supersonic all the way to the target, six-tenths of a mile away.

I've finally got something that is working pretty darned good in this rifle. At least, it works for a while. I use Sierra 175 gr. HPBTM bullets, over 42.1 gr. of Reloder-15 powder. I weight my cases and segregate them, shooting in batches of all the same weight. Lake City cases for this batch.

See the attached scorecards from the three-stage match. For reference, the scoring ring sizes are as follows:

 X - 10"

10 - 20"

9 - 30"

8 - 44"

7 - 60"

Oh, and the first two numbers you see written out to the left on each card are sighter shots, where we get two freebie's to check our zero. After that, there is 20-shots for score.

As you can see, accuracy is terrific for the first 10 to 14 shots, and I'm as pleased as can be with these results. But then it seems to degrade and I start getting 6's and 7's.

Normally, the first thing I should blame for this is myself. As the stage of fire goes on, my eyes get tired, my concentration wanes, and so on.

But I can't come up with an explanation for this. The conditions were identical, with wind, sunlight, eyeball clarity, etc. The sight picture looked good on all shots when the round fired. Yet towards the end of each string of 20, the group size opens up. No amount of trying seems to keep those 7's and 6's from popping up near the end.

If it was wind change, it would be mighty coincidental that it happened to do it at the same time in each of three stages of fire. Likewise if it was something to do with my reloading, like mis-weighing a powder charge. Those would be random events. So, this end-of-string phenomenon leads me to think it's something else.

And the only thing I can think of is barrel heating. It's not uncommon for accuracy to be affected as a barrel gets hot. I've seen some bench rest guys keep a cold wet towel in an ice chest, and periodically wrap it around their barrel to remove the heat. I'm wondering if I should try that next month...

What do you guys think?

[steve1 5]

The farthest target I've ever shot at is about half the distance you are shooting, John. So, what do I know. Barrel temperature is important though. I've never got good accuaracy out of a hot barrel. I usually fire a shot or two to get it warmed up and then let it cool down between shots after that. The wet towel, might be worth trying.

Some barrels are kind of finicky if they get dirty. I wouldn't expect problems unless you are firing thirty rounds or more.

I've never experimented with Sierra bullets much. The most accurate I've tried is Nosler Ballistic Tip. They are similiar to a hollow pt. You don't want to hit much bone with them because they are so fragile, so they aren't the best for hunting.

I also shoot Hornady Hollow Pt. Match bullets in my 22-250. They are super accurate.

I need to get out and do some more experimenting. I'd like to try some Barnes X bullets. I'm getting really rusty, and some of my rifles are getting dusty from sitting in the closet....

[quade 4]

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Two weekends ago I had a 1,000-yard match, shot with my .308 M1A (M-14), using iron sights and a front rest.

I've spent a year trying to get a load that works well, going from 168-grain bullets to 175's. Switching from IMR-4895 powder to Reloder-15. And experimenting with different powder charges, to keep the bullets supersonic all the way to the target, six-tenths of a mile away.

1000 / 5280 = 0.189 . . . six-tenths?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[piper17 1]

What version of the M1A do you own?

I've got the basic model and have installed a Harris Bipod, surplus walnut stock, and a Bushnell scope. Mostly I just plink at 100 - 200 yds with this rifle.

My preference now is SASS and used to enjoy IPSC. I was "Expert" with the M14 and was quite good out to 350 meters back then...before we converted to M16s

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[warpedskydiver 0]

Cooling that bbl may be a good idea, heck I know you shoot better than I do, you have waaaaaaay more 1000yd experience.

Also try 155grain Lapua Scenars. You might be amazed, in that they will almost always stay supersonic at 1000yds.

Load up a few and try them out, maybe with the IMR4895 to start.

[Lefty 0]

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Two weekends ago I had a 1,000-yard match, shot with my .308 M1A (M-14), using iron sights and a front rest.

I've spent a year trying to get a load that works well, going from 168-grain bullets to 175's. Switching from IMR-4895 powder to Reloder-15. And experimenting with different powder charges, to keep the bullets supersonic all the way to the target, six-tenths of a mile away.

1000 / 5280 = 0.189 . . . six-tenths?

Ummm...lol?

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Two weekends ago I had a 1,000-yard match, shot with my .308 M1A (M-14), using iron sights and a front rest.

I've spent a year trying to get a load that works well, going from 168-grain bullets to 175's. Switching from IMR-4895 powder to Reloder-15. And experimenting with different powder charges, to keep the bullets supersonic all the way to the target, six-tenths of a mile away.

1000 / 5280 = 0.189 . . . six-tenths?

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3000'/5280=0.569

[warpedskydiver 0]

Is the bbl free floated?

[BillyVance 34]

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Two weekends ago I had a 1,000-yard match, shot with my .308 M1A (M-14), using iron sights and a front rest.

I've spent a year trying to get a load that works well, going from 168-grain bullets to 175's. Switching from IMR-4895 powder to Reloder-15. And experimenting with different powder charges, to keep the bullets supersonic all the way to the target, six-tenths of a mile away.

1000 / 5280 = 0.189 . . . six-tenths?

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3000'/5280=0.569

he read 1000 feet, when it was 1000 yards.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[warpedskydiver 0]

Or forgot to convert yds to feet.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Sectional Density: .264
Ballistic Coefficient:
Sierra MatchKing Bullets 30 Caliber (308 Diameter) 175 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail
.505 above 2800 fps
.496 from 2800 to 1800 fps
.485 below 1800 fps
Notes: Jacketed hollow point


Berger 155 Grain Moly VLD Hollow Point Boat Tail
Diameter: .308 inch
Bullet design: Jacketed hollow point
Sectional density: .233
Ballistic coefficient: .484
Notes: Recommended twist rate is 1/14. Boat tail.


Berger Match Bullets 30 Caliber (308 Diameter) 168 Grain VLD Hollow Point Boat Tail
Sectional Density: .264
Ballistic Coefficient: .537
Recommended Twist Rate: 1 in 13


Lapua Scenar Bullets 30 Caliber (308 Diameter) 155 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Boat Tail
Sectional density: .233
Ballistic coefficient: .508
Notes:Boat tail
Designed for target shooting. Scenar bullets were used to set a world record perfect score in the 300 meter Moscow championship match. Averages from factory testing, 10-shot groups, have been less than 50mm at 300 meters.
Designed for long ranges and benchrest shooting.

The key is that the scenar is pretty damned good when it comes to BC and accuracy, and given that it is a 155grain bullet, you can push it faster resulting in a better BC.

[kelpdiver 2]

as someone who doesn't participate in competition, but fascinated by the level of detail and the resulting accuracy...

Seems like you have either fatigue or barrel heating to claim. I think the results tend to support the barrel theory well, but you can't completely eliminate the mental aspects as a possibility, though I would expect to see it alternate between 7 and 9/10, rather than flatline at 7/8. Best test is to have someone else fire it for the 22 shot sequence. Or try the cooling method first for yourself.

How quick is 'slow fire' from start to finish? Do you feel the barrel in between?

[quade 4]

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Two weekends ago I had a 1,000-yard match, shot with my .308 M1A (M-14), using iron sights and a front rest.

I've spent a year trying to get a load that works well, going from 168-grain bullets to 175's. Switching from IMR-4895 powder to Reloder-15. And experimenting with different powder charges, to keep the bullets supersonic all the way to the target, six-tenths of a mile away.

1000 / 5280 = 0.189 . . . six-tenths?

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3000'/5280=0.569

he read 1000 feet, when it was 1000 yards.

Ah . . . yes . . . that's very different!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[NewGuy2005 53]

That's some good shooting, John.

[Badgerord 0]

Most likely reason is shooter fatigue. - M14's have the worst recoil impulse of any US military small arms.

Secondly, you didn't explain what the grouping did (shift right/left, rise, or shotgun) This knowledge would be very helpful in truly assessing the problem.



Other thoughts:

Some IMR powders are a little bit thermal sensitive.
I would suggest 44grs of Varget, to give a lower extreme spread in velocities and thermally it's very stable.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

I have very little long range shooting experience, but I would say heating, fatigue and maybe some grime left over in the barrel. Great shooting!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[LouDiamond 1]

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the only thing I can think of is barrel heating. It's not uncommon for accuracy to be affected as a barrel gets hot.

I think you've answered your own question. There are a few other possible variables but having put an extensive amount of rounds through the military M21 down range as a sniper and when I went to SOTIC, I'd say that would be the first thing I would consider. Other variables include how old your current barrel is(how many rounds have you put through it?), is it free floating and is the stock glassed. The effects of temperature change throughout the day plays a big part as well. I keep a log book for all of the different types of shots I have taken from a cold barrel shot at X temperature/time of day to what happens after the barrel is warm. Once you have a log like this you can look back and see if a consistent pattern emerges as to what the cause may actual be. I would not be surprised if it was a combination of several I mentioned.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[jm951 0]

One other thing to consider, as the rifle heats up, it's going to change how the receiver seats into the stock. Have you had the receiver glass bedded?

Past that, I'm thinking barrel heating/operator error.

[warpedskydiver 0]

John can bed the receiver himself, I am sure of that.

Acraglas works well, so does JB weld, just make sure you use a release agent on anything that is not supposed to have bedding material on it.

You can buy release agent, or just use neutral kiwi shoe polish

If I were John, I would follow the advice of BadgerOrd, and Scott, as they have far more LR experience than I do.

BadgerOrd probably has more experience on LR shooting than all of us combined.

I am just an ordinary rifleman, those two are experts in LR shooting.

[steve1 5]

I can only imagine how hard it is to shoot iron sights at 1,000 yards. It would take a bionic eye to line things up right for every shot. Your front bead undoubtedly covers up an awful lot at that range.

I'd want to put a scope on with fine crosshairs to really test your rifle and ammo at that range. But then again, if you are shooting competitively that would put you in a different class.

Putting a wet towel over the barrel sounds like a good trick. I read somewhere, where one guy poured water down his bore to cool it, when it heated up. I really hate waiting around between shots for my barrel to cool. I figured I'd give it a try.

After every couple shots, I'd get up and spill some water into the chamber to cool things down. Yes, it was messy. And guess what, my groups were getting bigger.

I think the big problem with all that is that once my rifle is nestled in it's sand bags, I don't like to move things even a bit, until that group is done. I want everything the same with every shot. I'm sure you know all this already, John.

I glass bed all my hunting rifles. It can make a big difference. Brownell's has a good kit for that. You really need to follow the directions though, or you can have an action permanently stuck in your stock.

The M-14 is a good weapon. I'd never been around one until phase 1 of S.F. training. I slept with mine for over a month at camp McKall, back in 1970. Every night it went into my sleeping bag with me. One way of getting kicked out of that training was to lose your weapon, or have it taken.....

[mnealtx 0]

For the experts: I've been following this with interest, as I enjoy shooting and shot competitive smallbore in school.

A question: Would it be worth cryogenically treating the barrel, given the age of the weapon?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Zipp0 1]

Nice shootin Tex.

What's the drop at that range - like 15 feet?

I feel like a badass with a scope at 300 yards, so your are way outta my league. Then again, my rifles are cheap POS Russian/Romanian guns, but F it, they are fun to shoot and hunt with.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[warpedskydiver 0]

I have only seen it done on new bbls from the start before installation.


Next bbl, he may choose a cut rifle bbl made by Satern

Mrs. Rich may want to order one far ahead of time, as there is a backlog of bbls to be made, and by the time John's bbl needs replacing, it will be in his hands.

[warpedskydiver 0]

As for cleaning, are you using a patch and a rod? Boreguide?
FOAM or solvent?

Do you polish the bore with flitz?

[warpedskydiver 0]

One way of getting kicked out of that training was to lose your weapon, or have it taken.....

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As it should always be, we are all nothing without a rifle.

If anyone loses their rifle and remains alive, do they expect to make faces at the enemy?

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