1000-Yard Shooting Accuracy

[warpedskydiver 0]

Some guys are winning using the Scenars.

Is the receiver bedded?

[JohnRich 4]

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as someone who doesn't participate in competition, but fascinated by the level of detail and the resulting accuracy...

Seems like you have either fatigue or barrel heating to claim. I think the results tend to support the barrel theory well, but you can't completely eliminate the mental aspects as a possibility, though I would expect to see it alternate between 7 and 9/10, rather than flatline at 7/8. Best test is to have someone else fire it for the 22 shot sequence. Or try the cooling method first for yourself.

How quick is 'slow fire' from start to finish? Do you feel the barrel in between?

That's good deductive thinking. Fatigue is always my first suspect. The loose nut behind the stock (me) is usually to blame for things that go wrong. So that's always possible, even though I was trying really hard to do everything the same, every shot.

Slow-fire gives us 20 minutes for 20 shots for score. I usually finish in about 15, if my target puller is any good. Maybe I could try and slow down a bit and see what that does. Some shooters keep a little digital timer next to them so they can track their time limit, and pace themselves accordingly.

But timing is usually of minor importance compared to wind. You try and shoot each shot in the same conditions. If a gust comes up, most shooters will sit and do nothing until it dies down. That can eat up minutes of shooting time, and then you have to rush a bit to finish in time. So the luxury of time is also dependent upon how much the wind changes are messing with you.

Sometimes I feel the barrel. It's hot. Danged hot. You can't hold on to it more than half-a-second. But come to think of it, I'm not sure exactly how long it takes it to get to that point. Hmmm. It would be interesting to feel it after each shot, and judge how quickly it gets to maximum temperature. Interesting idea.

I've traded guns with people in the past to try and see if the problem is me, or the gun. That's always a fun experiment. Let's say that person A is shooting badly with gun A, and person B is shooting well with gun B. If they swap guns, and person A still shoots poorly with gun B, and person B still shoots well with gun A, then the conclusion is that the gun is not the problem - the shooter is. It can be quite humbling.

[JohnRich 4]

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Most likely reason is shooter fatigue. - M14's have the worst recoil impulse of any US military small arms.

Secondly, you didn't explain what the grouping did (shift right/left, rise, or shotgun) This knowledge would be very helpful in truly assessing the problem.

Other thoughts:

Some IMR powders are a little bit thermal sensitive.
I would suggest 44grs of Varget, to give a lower extreme spread in velocities and thermally it's very stable.

Back on the scorecard, I put a little dot next to the number score, indicating the clock position of the shot. For example, "7." would mean a shot in the 7-ring at the 5-o'clock position. Plotting those out, there's no consistent trend when the scores go bad. They just open up all the way around, donut style.

A number of people have told me that Reloder-15, which I use now, is supposed to be more temperature stable than IMR 4895. I do believe that some of the 1,000-yard shooters are using Varget, so it must be good too.

[JohnRich 4]

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the only thing I can think of is barrel heating. It's not uncommon for accuracy to be affected as a barrel gets hot.

I think you've answered your own question. There are a few other possible variables but having put an extensive amount of rounds through the military M21 down range as a sniper and when I went to SOTIC, I'd say that would be the first thing I would consider. Other variables include how old your current barrel is(how many rounds have you put through it?), is it free floating and is the stock glassed. The effects of temperature change throughout the day plays a big part as well. I keep a log book for all of the different types of shots I have taken from a cold barrel shot at X temperature/time of day to what happens after the barrel is warm. Once you have a log like this you can look back and see if a consistent pattern emerges as to what the cause may actual be. I would not be surprised if it was a combination of several I mentioned.

Good stuff. Yeah, more data is better. But I hate to spend all my shooting time collecting data in notebooks. But I recognize the value of that data.

The barrel has about 2,000 rounds through it. It's chrome-lined, so that's not a lot to be concerned about yet. It took me about 8,000 rounds to wear out a chrome-lined AR15 barrel. I know the guys without the chrome lining think nothing of throwing barrels away every few thousand rounds.

[JohnRich 4]

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One other thing to consider, as the rifle heats up, it's going to change how the receiver seats into the stock. Have you had the receiver glass bedded?

Past that, I'm thinking barrel heating/operator error.

No glass bedding. That's an improvement that I definitely would like to make to this rifle. But it does pretty darned good already without it, for the first 10-14 shots.

One other thing I'm surprised that no one has mentioned - the gas nut. They are notorious for working themselves loose, and as they loosen, gas seeps out, affecting accuracy. I check that every few shots. I've drawn a line on the nut and the gas tube to keep an eye on it. If the two lines are no longer aligned, but are offset a bit, that means the nut is unscrewing itself. (See attached photo)

I'd use locktite to keep it in place, but then it's a bitch to take apart and clean after each match. So I just snug it down tight with a wrench, and keep an eye on the white line to make sure it doesn't move.

[kbordson 8]

From Mart -

do that test to check on the thermal sensitivity (10 rounds at 1per sec rate, then shoot for score)



- and for the record- you shouldn't freefloat M14 barrels.

[JohnRich 4]

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I can only imagine how hard it is to shoot iron sights at 1,000 yards. It would take a bionic eye to line things up right for every shot. Your front bead undoubtedly covers up an awful lot at that range.

Yep. The targets are about 6-feet square, and the front post pretty much spans the entire width, covering maybe 5-feet of it. So I'm just trying to balance and center a tiny black dot (the target) on top of that fat post front sight. And maintain vertical consistency too.

Some people use a "frame hold", where they just center the front post around both sides and the top of the target frame, covering up the actual bullseye itself. That can be more consistent for some people. I've tried that sight picture, but didn't like it. I like actually seeing the thing I'm trying to hit.

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I'd want to put a scope on with fine crosshairs to really test your rifle and ammo at that range. But then again, if you are shooting competitively that would put you in a different class.

Yes, different class, but I don't really compete against others and don't worry about the classifications. I just try and improve myself, and to heck with how everyone else is shooting. A scope would be nice, but they're a tricky mount to get right on an M1A, and adds other new complexities to things you have to worry about. That's why I like iron sights. They're the ultimate KISS, "keep it simple, stupid" system.

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Putting a wet towel over the barrel sounds like a good trick. I read somewhere, where one guy poured water down his bore to cool it, when it heated up. I really hate waiting around between shots for my barrel to cool. I figured I'd give it a try.

After every couple shots, I'd get up and spill some water into the chamber to cool things down. Yes, it was messy. And guess what, my groups were getting bigger.

I think the big problem with all that is that once my rifle is nestled in it's sand bags, I don't like to move things even a bit, until that group is done. I want everything the same with every shot. I'm sure you know all this already, John.

Good point. That would ruin the temperature consistency of the barrel, making a dramatic change in mid-string. The rise in heat from shot to shot is small, but a cold towel would be like shock cooling all at once. It might be a fun experiment.

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The M-14 is a good weapon. I'd never been around one until phase 1 of S.F. training. I slept with mine for over a month at camp McKall, back in 1970. Every night it went into my sleeping bag with me. One way of getting kicked out of that training was to lose your weapon, or have it taken.....

Oh yeah, I learned that lesson the hard way in Marine boot camp. We were in the woods and I leaned my rifle against a nearby tree to set up my pup tent with my partner. A few minutes later the rifle was no longer there. My D.I. had snuck around and stolen it. I knew I was in deep shit having to go report my rifle missing...

[JohnRich 4]

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What's the drop at that range - like 15 feet?

Way off!

I come up 47 minutes of elevation for 1,000 yards. That's 470 inches, or almost 40 feet! So the barrel is kind of like pointing at the top of a four-story building behind your target.

I've sometimes wondered about this, because our wind flags are only about 15' tall. So the flags aren't really displaying what the wind is doing at the level where the bullets are flying...

[JohnRich 4]

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As for cleaning, are you using a patch and a rod? Boreguide?
FOAM or solvent?

Do you polish the bore with flitz?

Patch and plastic-coated rod. No bore-guide - yeah, I know that's a no-no. The flash suppressor kind of serves as a bore guide. Hoppes solvent.

No flitz. Isn't flitz an abrasive? That might be a good thing to do on a brand new barrel, like fire-lapping, but I don't want to wear it out prematurely.

[JohnRich 4]

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Other recommendations to check the barrel Shoot 10 shots fast, don't worry about accuracy. Just get the shots downrange. Then wait one min. After that, get behind the sights and shoot for score. Eval the pattern and see if it produces the same as noted in the first post. If yes, then possibly barrel related.

Excellent idea. That would test the heating theory, and lessen the fatigue factor.

[JohnRich 4]

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A sharpie marker can do wonders for determining OAL.
Of course Mag fed weapons have the limitation of mag length.

Soot works good too - just hold the bullet tip over a candle, and then run it into the chamber. The soot will be disturbed where it touches the rifling. Then you seat the bullet a little deeper, and repeat until the soot is no longer disturbed, then you know you're no longer jammed into the rifling.

For single-shot fire like this 1,000-yard stuff, you don't have to click them into the magazine. You just feed them directly into the chamber by hand, and close the bolt on it.

Another type of match I shoot has some rapid-fire stages, which require pre-loaded magazines. So those have the magazine-length restriction.

[JohnRich 4]

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One item to look for in ammo shot through a semi, and this would take some experiementation. Check the lateral runnout on your ammo prior to loading a 20 rd mag, record the runnout on each round. Shoot 15 rounds, check the runnout on the remaining 5. It may be that the recoil impulse is affecting the seating of the bullet.

The 1,000-yard match is loaded and fired one shot at a time. So all the cartridges stay in my box until I'm ready to load one round to shoot it. I also do not load the next round right away while waiting for my target to come up with the score, as that would allow the round to absorb heat in the chamber. Each round goes into the chamber only when I'm ready to shoot, and then I usually fire within thirty seconds.

[warpedskydiver 0]

The barrel has about 2,000 rounds through it. It's chrome-lined, so that's not a lot to be concerned about yet. It took me about 8,000 rounds to wear out a chrome-lined AR15 barrel. I know the guys without the chrome lining think nothing of throwing barrels away every few thousand rounds.

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The chrome lined bbls are pretty good for wear, but if you want to be as accurate as you can be, you will need to move to a stainless bbl, and one that is properly lapped and crowned.

Chrome lined bbls do not get lapped prior to chrome lning. The resulting accuracy of the bbls is set for good once the chrome goes on.

I have lapped chrome bbls for myself, and lemme tell you, it is not easy.

So look at bedding the receiver, getting a Krieger of Satern bbl, and see what happens.

Hey why not pick up a box of 20 or 50 bullets in 155grain Scenars and see what it does?

you will be able to shoot them a bit faster due to lighter bullets, with the same base area to push upon.

Here is what was written by someone else about it.
This guy has been competing for years.

"2950fps from a 24-26" barrel @ 1000 ' fps=1401.0 super sonic to 1300' @ 1127.0 FPS So its safe to say at most environmental conditions it will easily stay supersonic to past 1000' or meters your choice on this one. What's also nice is because of its weight to length ratio, it doesn't need a super fast twist to stabilize it.

It may not buck the wind as good as some of the heavier ones but the Palma shooters can't all be wrong can they?

The 175s were more a product of the 168's not reaching 1000 good to only 600-700(this was in sierras line more specifically) than the 155. The 175's and more so the 190's do buck the wind more and do deliver more payload to the target as far as sniping goes. They, snipers, are the ones that really use and need the 175/6 gr bullets.

The 155 Lapua Secnar Silvers shoot much flatter than the rest to 1000' They also have the longest point blank range PBR of 300-305'. The others all had PBRs in the 270-80 range. The best against the wind was no surprise the 190 but only by 6" @ 1000' certainly not enough to make giving up all the other benefits of the 155 Lapua.

They are longer than the 175 MK, and as long as the 190, but are only 155grains.

The only real reason to go to the 175-190 is for live targets that need the extra payload. "

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[steve1 5]

That sounds like an awful car wreck, John. Glad you're healing up. Driving may be the most dangerous thing we do. Even for us skydivers....

[dannydan 5]

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That sounds like an awful car wreck, John. Glad you're healing up. Driving may be the most dangerous thing we do. Even for us skydivers....

It IS way more dangerous here on the ground!! I am also glad that yr ok JR!! One day hope to meet ALL of you fellas sometime, maybe in Rantoul someday!

I have a SA NatMat, but don't get out much myself, I have been looking and calling around for a 1000yard clearing just to see what I can do myself, but to no avail. I cant add anything to what has been mentioned , but I will agree with this whole heartedly that I believe 1-cart specs 2-shooter fatigue 3-bbl heating in this order...

my buddy that introduced me to shooting back in the mid 80s asks me why I want to shoot out to a 1000yds .."you live in the city!" my reply was I wanna SEE for myself what I can do! He says, "good enuf"... It is all so fascinating!

Keep yr pwdr dry and many blue ones boys!! :DD

[warpedskydiver 0]

http://www.saternmachining.com/PDF/SCMSummerPL2007.pdf

John, please take note of this and save the info.

This is the best M14 bbl that money can buy.

Steve Satern is a good guy as well.

I would not doubt that Marty and Karen know him.

He competed at Perry as usual this year, and this time he used a GrendelContact me if you need technical assistance in bedding the receiver or floating the bbl etc.

Are you allowed to polish your trigger group?
Not lighten or alter but improve letoff etc.

I know the rules can be very strict.

I would love to see you compete at Camp Perry and do well.

If money allows I would love to use my Grendel to compete.

[asmund 0]

What's the best way to buy .308 ammo suitable for long range shooting, for less than $1/shot?

I'm looking at entering the sport by buying a nice entry-level rifle&scope, but see the continued cost of shooting a .308 rifle as somewhat prohibitive.

Hope I can ask in this thread....

I like subway.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Hornady has some nice ammo for less than some of the others, but you basically have to find a sale, or keep watching prices via the web.

Ammo prices are truly far beyond a ripoff right now.

I am stuck paying $1.25 per round for one of the calibers shoot.

I will be reloading soon as I can afford to, and maybe that would be something you can do as well.

[warpedskydiver 0]

What kind of competition?
What kind of rifle? semi or bolt?

there is alot of info that determines what may be best for your purposes.

[namgrunt 0]

anyone shooting moly coated bullets??

JBTHP moly works for meeee.

.

59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT
LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI)
www.dzmemories.com

[warpedskydiver 0]

I have, but it has been shown that velocity can be somewhat reduced by the lack of friction as the bullet engages the rifling.

The reason being reduced chamber pressure.

I liked them just fine, and it did help in keeping the bbl cleaner.

[kallend 2,106]

How come Natty "La Longue Carabine" Bumppo didn't need all this technological assistance?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Zenister 0]

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And the only thing I can think of is barrel heating. It's not uncommon for accuracy to be affected as a barrel gets hot. I've seen some bench rest guys keep a cold wet towel in an ice chest, and periodically wrap it around their barrel to remove the heat. I'm wondering if I should try that next month...

What do you guys think?

the test engineer in me thought this as i was reading your problem.

The way i'd test it would be to 'lock in' my weapon and ensure adequate time for the barrel to cool between shots. After about 50 rounds or so if you aren't seeing the same issue i think you could call it solved although i can imagine a few more ways to verify that might be 'entertaining' at least..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[JohnRich 4]

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This is the best M14 bbl that money can buy...

Are you allowed to polish your trigger group?
Not lighten or alter but improve letoff etc.
I know the rules can be very strict.

I would love to see you compete at Camp Perry and do well.

Thanks for that reference.

The triggers can be polished, but pull weight must be no less than 4.5 lbs. for a service rifle. And in official matches, they sometimes check when you register.

I did the Camp Perry national matches one year just for the heck of it. I finished in the top third with the M1 Garand. My AR-15 skills weren't too hot that year. And I hadn't started long-range shooting yet. I do want to go back again some time. I need the time off from work and the money... It's a hell of a shooting experience, regardless of your skill level.

[JohnRich 4]

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What's the best way to buy .308 ammo suitable for long range shooting, for less than $1/shot?

The people who I know who don't reload, often buy from here:
http://www.thehuntingshack.com/
They make ammo for military and police snipers, and it's highly regarded. You have to buy a large bulk quantity to get "decent" pricing - like 1,000 rounds. It's going to hurt.

If you don't buy direct from them, you can google search for their ammo and get it in smaller quantities from other ammo retailers.

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I'm looking at entering the sport by buying a nice entry-level rifle&scope, but see the continued cost of shooting a .308 rifle as somewhat prohibitive.

Yep, you need a .22 rimfire for cheap plinking. Any of the larger .30 caliber rounds are going to run you about a $1 each these days when purchased commercially.