Government Control of your Thermostat

[billvon 2,991]

>Shutting you down does not involve any intrusion into your home.

Neither does changing the setting on your thermostat. In both cases there is zero physical intrusion; there is just a signal (or lack of a signal) sent. In one case _everything_ is shut down, and in the other case just the compressor is shut down.

>And what about people who use solar power and sell energy back to
>the utilities, or supplement their usage some other way?

Once they separate from the grid, it wouldn't matter. They are no longer a factor in utility loading.

>If you force people to do this they will just install a window unit.

I doubt it. Although I am sure there are people who would do it just to give a good old "fuck you" to "the man", most people won't notice (beyond their power bills going down.)

[Zipp0 1]

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>Shutting you down does not involve any intrusion into your home.

Neither does changing the setting on your thermostat. In both cases there is zero physical intrusion; there is just a signal (or lack of a signal) sent. In one case _everything_ is shut down, and in the other case just the compressor is shut down.

>And what about people who use solar power and sell energy back to
>the utilities, or supplement their usage some other way?

Once they separate from the grid, it wouldn't matter. They are no longer a factor in utility loading.

>If you force people to do this they will just install a window unit.

I doubt it. Although I am sure there are people who would do it just to give a good old "fuck you" to "the man", most people won't notice (beyond their power bills going down.)

Well ya got me there - most people WON'T notice, cause this crap ain't ever passing!

But there is an intrusion into your home - an electronic intrusion. What's next? Mics, cameras? They need the cameras to make sure you have no window units installed!

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[mnealtx 0]

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Oh I also noticed how this administration ALSO enacted legislation making it FAR harder to declare bankruptcy.. so you can not escape from massive debt as easily...

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"I believe in fiscal responsibility.... not fiscal avoidance that the right wing seems to support."

Make up your mind, will you?

Wait, I forgot...the actual *ISSUE* being discussed doesn't really matter, so long as you can get that shot in.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,991]

>But there is an intrusion into your home - an electronic intrusion.
>What's next? Mics, cameras?

Indeed. Why, I hear there are some people that carry around a government monitoring device called a "cellphone." Some even keep it on 24 hours a day so the government can monitor where they are and what they say!

But in any case, I think the programmable thermostat has a lot of possibilities. Here's how I'd implement it:

1) Start a utility-based program that exchanges thermostats, heater and hot water controls for free. Call it managed power. Allow people to opt out if they so choose. If they sign up they get a 25% reduction in energy rates.

2) During power shortages, the thermostat cuts back 2-4 degrees from the standard setting.

3) During imminent blackouts, the steps, in order, would be:
-black out people not on managed power
-disconnect A/C compressors for people on managed power
-black out people on managed power

In this way, managed power could also help older people who a) have trouble paying for power and b) can't afford a blackout (stairclimber, elevator, dialysis machine etc.)

[Amazon 7]

I do believe in fiscal responsibility. All my credit cards have a ZERO balance everry month

My morgage is only owing about 50% of the value of the house on a 30 year fixed loan.

All my boats are paid for..

My other properties are paid for in full

I do owe about 15K on my truck.. but meh... I will probably pay it off this year.

BUT.. there are many people who are just ONE ILLNESS away from bankruptcy....that is a fact in our country.. when your health insurance is tied to your job.

Major illness. they replace you.. no money to pay the Health insurance premiums... and you lose EVERYTHING...it happens.. and its far easierr to do now with the laws YOUR GUYS elected... and rubber stammped by YOUR CONGRESS.


ITS YOUR BOZOS who have run up the trillions and trillions of dollars of debt and waste.. and you are expecting someone else to pay for YOUR fiscal irresponsibility.. because YALL are always yacking about LOWER TAXES.. LOWER TAXES..... Just who the fuck do you expect to pay YOUR DEFICITS... oh that is right.. someone else.

[Zipp0 1]

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>But there is an intrusion into your home - an electronic intrusion.
>What's next? Mics, cameras?

Indeed. Why, I hear there are some people that carry around a government monitoring device called a "cellphone." Some even keep it on 24 hours a day so the government can monitor where they are and what they say!

[REPLY]I can turn the cell phone off if I choose, or get a pre-paid phone with cash and they don't even knwo who I am.[/REPLY]

But in any case, I think the programmable thermostat has a lot of possibilities. Here's how I'd implement it:

1) Start a utility-based program that exchanges thermostats, heater and hot water controls for free. Call it managed power. Allow people to opt out if they so choose. If they sign up they get a 25% reduction in energy rates.

2) During power shortages, the thermostat cuts back 2-4 degrees from the standard setting.

3) During imminent blackouts, the steps, in order, would be:
-black out people not on managed power
-disconnect A/C compressors for people on managed power
-black out people on managed power

In this way, managed power could also help older people who a) have trouble paying for power and b) can't afford a blackout (stairclimber, elevator, dialysis machine etc.)

Fine dude - YOU can take a step back in time and sweat while you work, or try to sleep, with the government deciding when. I'll continue to control most aspects of my life.

I'm liberal, but I'm not a nut about it.
(credit to Bush Sr. for that one)

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[billvon 2,991]

> can turn the cell phone off if I choose . . .

Actually, most cellphones are never entirely "off" any more. If the government wanted to snoop, they could even if your phone seems off.

But that's another story.

>Fine dude - YOU can take a step back in time and sweat while you work, or
>try to sleep, with the government deciding when. I'll continue to control
>most aspects of my life.

Actually:

a) I generate my own power anyway

b) if I were under managed power, I'd have power while you sweated (or froze) in the dark. That's part of the purpose of such a program; reducing outages.

[mnealtx 0]

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I do believe in fiscal responsibility. All my credit cards have a ZERO balance everry month

My morgage is only owing about 50% of the value of the house on a 30 year fixed loan.

All my boats are paid for..

My other properties are paid for in full

I do owe about 15K on my truck.. but meh... I will probably pay it off this year.

BUT.. there are many people who are just ONE ILLNESS away from bankruptcy....that is a fact in our country.. when your health insurance is tied to your job.

Major illness. they replace you.. no money to pay the Health insurance premiums... and you lose EVERYTHING...it happens.. and its far easierr to do now with the laws YOUR GUYS elected... and rubber stammped by YOUR CONGRESS.


ITS YOUR BOZOS who have run up the trillions and trillions of dollars of debt and waste.. and you are expecting someone else to pay for YOUR fiscal irresponsibility.. because YALL are always yacking about LOWER TAXES.. LOWER TAXES..... Just who the fuck do you expect to pay YOUR DEFICITS... oh that is right.. someone else.

Ok, so your argument is hypocritical, then... no problem. Once again, you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about.

Perhaps you should read what the bill is actually about, BEFORE you run your mouth...

You seem to be having some pronoun problems.... YOU guys...YOUR congress.... you have NO clue of who I voted for or if I voted at all.

Oh, that's right... those that aren't WITH you must be AGAINST you, right? Wow, I wonder where you got THAT line from?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,991]

>Ok, so you're a hypocrite, then . . .

Your one warning.

[Zipp0 1]

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> can turn the cell phone off if I choose . . .

Actually, most cellphones are never entirely "off" any more. If the government wanted to snoop, they could even if your phone seems off.

But that's another story.

Battery can be removed.

Booo Yah! He shoots, he scores!

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[wmw999 2,445]

Most of us here are wealthy enough to pretty much set the thermostat where we want it, not where we need it.

A hundred years ago, nearly everyone survived without A/C. Not comfortably, but they survived. And, right now in Iraq, people are getting a whole lot less than 24-hour power. We've grown very used to everything just working when we need it to in the US. It's something that both of my Brazilian sisters-in-law remark on regularly. Of course, they like the fact that everything works, too
While I think that the intrusion of mandatory remote-controlled thermostats is too much (right up there with the chip-implanted drivers' licenses), I think that an incentive program is a great idea.

Right now I keep my summer thermostat set to 80-81 degrees most of the time I'm home. It's 85 when I'm not there. With stone floors downstairs (a GREAT investment), it rarely feels uncomfortably hot. If it does, I turn on another fan, or turn down the thermostat. In return, my A/C bill on a 2600-sq-ft (shaded) house doesn't really get above $150. In Houston.

One question -- if one already keeps one's thermostat below/above the official brownout setpoint -- would it still turn it down/up even further, or would it just kind of be like a free discount on power? Might be yet another incentive. Financial incentives that one can choose independently are best. There might be consequences, but, well, life has those, and sometimes they change.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,991]

>Battery can be removed.

Google "ultracaps." Suffice to say that if the government wanted to monitor what you'd been saying, removing the battery would not stop their efforts.

[Amazon 7]

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Ok, so you're a hypocrite, then... no problem. Once again, you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about.

Perhaps you should read what the bill is actually about, BEFORE you run your mouth...

You seem to be having some pronoun problems.... YOU guys...YOUR congress.... you have NO clue of who I voted for or if I voted at all.

Oh, that's right... those that aren't WITH you must be AGAINST you, right? Wow, I wonder where you got THAT line from?

Wow... it must be late your reading comprehension is outta whack Bubba.

Not an ounce of hypocrisy here regardless of what it is you are seeing thru your RED KOOLAID colored glasses.

I believe in fiscal responsibility for myself... I only have a mortgage that is 50% of the value of the house and property and a truck loan.. 15 k out of a 45k price tag...sheesh.. you must have some jeolousy issues.

I believe in it for my country... but YOUR administration..that YOU support hook line sinker and fucking pole as well ........has run up deficits in succession since 1981 with Ronnie Raygun and King George the 1st and King George the 2nd.

You must really be into those Fiscal GOLDEN SHOWERS of the Republican Voodoo TrickleDown economics YOUR PARTY has foisted on the American People... by virtue of voting for them over and over you have given your party tacit approval...

WAR PROFITEERS and WAR GOOD.....

Infrastructure.. health.... american people.. BAD

Yes I am against their fiscal fucking stupidity.. yes I am against their incompetent execution of a war that did not need to be fought in such a stupid waste of resources that would have been better spent actually fighting those who attacked us... I AM AGAINST YOU and your ILK who support this fucking stupidity.

We who oppose you got it FROM YOUR CHIMP IN CHIEF........remember???

[mnealtx 0]

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>Ok, so you're a hypocrite, then . . .

Your one warning.

You obviously didn't read the quote I provided, but fine.... I'll change it.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[DJL 235]

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>This is almost as idiotic as the whole LEED program . . .

I don't think the concept is idiotic at all. "Smart loads" are going to be one of the changes that allows continued growth in power grids throughout the country without seeing more blackouts/coal fired power plants/powerlines run - and also allow people to afford energy as the price of fuels increase.

However, I also think that it is better administered by utilities than by government.

There's a combination of events that's needed. They need to decide upon a peak load per household (somehow) then they need to provide it. So here goes, everyone gets an 60 amp panel (arbitrary selection), houses are required to be better insulated or designed with better heat gain characteristics, people pay a premium if they want more power. For existing construction, you pay a base rate and you pay a premium rate if you exceed your allotment.

Anyway sure, if they can limit the load per household then that would work great, but they couldn't control an appliance; it would be impractical.

And LEED really does has some work to do. It's better than the great nothing before and points us in the right direction but there's still a lot of big picture work to be done. For example, they still have it in their heads that more outdoor air is more better (Indoor Environmental Quality Credit #2). That's great for San Diego. Not so much for Tuscaloosa or downtown New York. Another one is their idea that high grade filtration (Indoor Environmental Quality Credit #5) makes for a healthier atmosphere.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,991]

>You obviously didn't read the quote I provided . . .

I don't care what justification you have. No personal attacks. Period.

[Andy9o8 2]

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>Battery can be removed.

Google "ultracaps."

[billvon 2,991]

>They need to decide upon a peak load per household (somehow) then
>they need to provide it.

That's sorta what happens now. Most people out here have a 240VAC 100 amp panel; that limits the amount of power that can be provided to each home. That's average, of course; the system is designed to provide for average power demands with margin for high load days, not to supply 24 kilowatts continuously to every home.

>So here goes, everyone gets an 60 amp panel (arbitrary selection),
>houses are required to be better insulated or designed with better heat
>gain characteristics, people pay a premium if they want more power.

OK, but what would that do? Wouldn't reduce average power consumption. Most homes average less than 2kW (10 amps 240 volts) over the course of a day. "Limiting" them to 14 kilowatts wouldn't do much. If people started blowing breakers, they'd get smaller elements in bigger electric hot water heaters and heat more water more slowly (for example.) Same total power used.

>Anyway sure, if they can limit the load per household then that would
>work great, but they couldn't control an appliance; it would be
>impractical.

How come? What's the technical hurdle that you'd have to clear? I mean, commercial power customers do this already.

[mnealtx 0]

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Wow... it must be late your reading comprehension is outta whack Bubba.

Someone's is...but it's not mine.

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I believe in fiscal responsibility for myself.

But evidently not for anyone else... the bill that was signed makes people that have the means to do a Chapter 13 (restructured payment) bankruptcy do that instead of a Chapter 7.

How is that not more "fiscally responsible" than someone saying "FU" to their creditors?

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sheesh.. you must have some jeolousy issues.

Jealousy issues? Why would I be jealous of you?

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I believe in it for my country... but YOUR administration..that YOU support hook line sinker and fucking pole as well ........has run up deficits in succession since 1981 with Ronnie Raygun and King George the 1st and King George the 2nd.

But evidently only when it's a Republican administration, evidently. Both sides of the aisle spend money like drunken sailors in a Tijuana bar, but evidently only the ones with the blue insignia are "good spenders".

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You must really be into those Fiscal GOLDEN SHOWERS of the Republican Voodoo TrickleDown economics YOUR PARTY has foisted on the American People.

I'll disregard the suggestion that I'm into perverse sex, thanks - it's about par for the debate skills of the "new elite", however.

As to trickledown economics, however:
That would be the same "trickledown" that pulls the country out of every recession that the the liberals put us in, yes? The same trickledown that cause record economy growth every time it's used?

If so then, yup...I support that.

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by virtue of voting for them over and over you have given your party tacit approval...

And again, you don't know WHO I voted for or if I voted at all... so you may as well give up on that tactic...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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>You obviously didn't read the quote I provided . . .

I don't care what justification you have. No personal attacks. Period.

No problem.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JohnRich 4]

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Did anyone besides CNS pick this up?

Google news: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ned=us&q=california+thermostats&btnG=Search+News

[JohnRich 4]

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...giving people the choice to turn down the heater/coolong based on real time pricing presented to each individual through this thermostat discussed. I like that idea. It would empower the people to make the right/wrong decision, and having real time pricing available at all times is helpfull to controling personal spending. Let the people decide... not the government.

Yep. Billvon got it in message #29 - make it a voluntary program with price discounts for those who agree to be regulated, and to encourage participation.

[rushmc 23]

Hey John, how about this one which seems to be related.

The enviros hero, Mr Hanson, is going to testify at the Marshalltown Iowa power plant construction permit hearing. (and of course he is being PAID to come) that building a new coal fired power plant in Iowa (or anywhere) would be a waste of money. Why?? The reason he gives is that since he believes that, because of global warming, coal fired electric generation plants will be regulated out of business by the US government. (I am not making this shit up. It has been on 1540 KXEL radio here this week)

52% of the electricity in the US is generated by coal.

If we are afeared of the gov regulating your heat just think what might happen should this certifiable nut get his way

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

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As to trickledown economics, however:
That would be the same "trickledown" that pulls the country out of every recession that the the liberals put us in, yes? The same trickledown that cause record economy growth every time it's used?

Then please explain to me why the TRILLIONS of dollars of debt have been run up under successive REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATIONS.....King George the II is having this excellent adventure in Iraq.. with little oversite.. and a right wing raid on the treasury unsurpassed in our history... but you blame the war now on Democrats.. WOW.. just WOW

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by virtue of voting for them over and over you have given your party tacit approval...

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And again, you don't know WHO I voted for or if I voted at all... so you may as well give up on that tactic...

Yeah I am supposed to believe you voted for anything other than this bunch of crooks... RIIIIIIIIGGGGHHHHHHTTTTTT

With what you post and support over and over...... I aint buying it....


OH and as far as the perverse references... .. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... I am pretty sure MOST rePUBICans can figure that out... but THEY.. keep it in the closet.. till they get caught

[rushmc 23]

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...giving people the choice to turn down the heater/coolong based on real time pricing presented to each individual through this thermostat discussed. I like that idea. It would empower the people to make the right/wrong decision, and having real time pricing available at all times is helpfull to controling personal spending. Let the people decide... not the government.

Yep. Billvon got it in message #29 - make it a voluntary program with price discounts for those who agree to be regulated, and to encourage participation.

Something similar already exists here. Business can agree to be interupted. Agreeing to do this gets them a lower overall rate. Most of the companies that agree to this have standby generation that will supply the load if they need to keep running. From and environmental perspective however, I would think this would be worse if one would compare a more effiecient power plant to a diesel or natrual gas generator.

The point I want to make is, be careful what you ask for.

Now, the interuptable rate I speak of helps when looking at not needing to build another power plant but, does it help the envioronment?

The same kind of response may be seen in a situation like this.

Now please, before anybody flames me, I have not formed an opinion on the topic of this post. I only throw info out to consider

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln