Organs to be taken without consent

[Lindsey 0]

In that situation I would be asking if the family should be allowed to over-ride the decision of the deceased.

The family already IS allowed to over-ride the decision of the dead guy.

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[jakee 1,501]

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In that situation I would be asking if the family should be allowed to over-ride the decision of the deceased.

The family already IS allowed to over-ride the decision of the dead guy.

Irrelevant.

Whether the family has the final say in donation or the deceased has the final say in donation the State itself is overriding no-one. It is simply deciding which of the two parties can override the other. This is a major drift away from the thread topic though.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[warpedskydiver 0]

I am in favor of the harvesting of organs from the dead in order to save the lives of others, in the end it is a sad state of affairs that family members overide the wishes of the departed over mere ignorance of their own.

Many black do not believe in the donation of organs, citing their religion soes not allow it, yet those same individuals are usually baptist

Yet they are very much the number one leading race of persons needing organ transplants due to many ailments to which they are the leading sufferers.

No racial undertones here, just stating FACT.

Live with it.

[warpedskydiver 0]

But then again, there are a few people I would be in favor of harvesting their organs prematurely.

Heck, I would help out, I have a gutting knife and I am quite good with it.

[tbrown 26]

Why wait 'til you're dead anyway ? Haven't we all heard the story about some poor slob in China who wakes up in a bathtub full of ice, with no kidneys ?

Not dead soon enough ? Nothing a little persuasion with a pillow can't handle...

It's not a bad idea in principle, after all the dead no longer need their organs and so many lives could be saved. But the fact that a government - ANY government - would be running the show, means that the program would be grossly & incompetently abused.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Lindsey 0]

Irrelevant.

You don't expect me to read the whole God damned thread do ya???? I walked up when I did....thought my thoughts were relevant at that particular place in time...lol

Cope.


linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[mnealtx 0]

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It's not a bad idea in principle, after all the dead no longer need their organs and so many lives could be saved.

Agreed in principle....but it is NOT the government's place to decide or control.... and control it is.

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But the fact that a government - ANY government - would be running the show, means that the program would be grossly & incompetently abused.

That is exactly the point I was making, above - mission creep.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,009]

>Should the hospitals assume that all patients brought in have opted for a DNR?

Nope. Because assuming a DNR could turn a live person into a dead one. Assuming consent to donate organs turns a dead person into a dead person who is in more pieces, which is a different order of magnitude when it comes to errors you can make in the process.

[mnealtx 0]

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>Should the hospitals assume that all patients brought in have opted for a DNR?

Nope. Because assuming a DNR could turn a live person into a dead one. Assuming consent to donate organs turns a dead person into a dead person who is in more pieces, which is a different order of magnitude when it comes to errors you can make in the process.

The principle behind the two scenarios are the same, the effect is different. The government does not have the right to make that decision barring explicit instruction from the patient.

As stated above, giving implied consent to the government is like the guy at the frat party saying "Well, she *said* she wanted to"...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,009]

>The principle behind the two scenarios are the same, the effect is different.

And the degree is different.

If a mechanic makes an careless error in a radio installation that causes the radio not to work, he is liable for repairing the radio. If he makes a careless error in an airbag installation that causes it to fire while someone is getting in the car, and cripples them - that's a whole different level of error. They are both errors, and they may be made in a similar way for a similar reason (expediency, economy.) One may be permissible (i.e. it may be OK to occasionally make the error as long as you make it good) the other is not.

[mnealtx 0]

I agree that the degree is different. I was trying to find another, similar issue to see where people's thoughts were - sort of like your subway post.

To the other posters: Not enough people on the donor rolls? Fine - get more aggressive with advertising it. Have the people that currently handle whatever form is used push the option more aggressively.

But, implying that the government somehow "owns me" after I die simply because I didn't sign (or didn't know I had to sign) some piece of paper?

No.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[diablopilot 2]

So when you die (not for some time I hope), I'm welcome to waltz into your ex-home and take your shit?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[kallend 2,032]

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The state should assume that someone retains their rights unless they explicity give them up.

Do the dead have rights? If so, what are they?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[livendive 8]

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So when you die (not for some time I hope), I'm welcome to waltz into your ex-home and take your shit?

It's not like I'd care, but it would no longer be my shit you were taking, it'd be my daughter's. I'm pretty sure she has no use for my kidneys though, and wouldn't mind you taking them. If by some bizarre coincidence she needs them and mine still work, she has first dibs on them too.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[labrys 0]

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Do the dead have rights? If so, what are they?

That's a theological argument, isn't it? I'm an atheist, kallend. I don't really give a rat's ass what happens to my body after I die. I don't think that that opinion gives me the right to disrespect someone who believes otherwise.

Owned by Remi #?

[billvon 3,009]

>I'm welcome to waltz into your ex-home and take your shit?

Well, just for you JP - if I do go in and you need something in my house to save a friend from imminent death, feel free.

[kallend 2,032]

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Do the dead have rights? If so, what are they?

That's a theological argument, isn't it?

I was thinking of legal rights, actually. Do the dead have ANY rights, and if so, what are they?

[labrys 0]

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Well, just for you JP - if I do go in and you need something in my house to save a friend from imminent death, feel free.

You've expressed your desires publicly, Bill. Do you think that because you can do that then everyone can and that those that don't have this chance deserve to be at the whim of the government?

Owned by Remi #?

[mnealtx 0]

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Do the dead have rights? If so, what are they?

That's a theological argument, isn't it?

I was thinking of legal rights, actually. Do the dead have ANY rights, and if so, what are they?

[labrys 0]

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I was thinking of legal rights, actually. Do the dead have ANY rights, and if so, what are they?

Is the body of a person who believes in the afterlife owned by the state when they meet the state's definition of death?

Owned by Remi #?

[labrys 0]

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I think the laws against graverobbing and necrophilia show that they do, at least in some form.

Yes. That's a brilliant example.

Owned by Remi #?

[Shotgun 1]

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>I'm welcome to waltz into your ex-home and take your shit?

Well, just for you JP - if I do go in and you need something in my house to save a friend from imminent death, feel free.

Now I'm wondering what story JP will come up with to explain to Amy why he needs all of your bondage gear to save a friend from imminent death.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If a mechanic makes an careless error in a radio installation that causes the radio not to work, he is liable for repairing the radio. If he makes a careless error in an airbag installation that causes it to fire while someone is getting in the car, and cripples them - that's a whole different level of error. They are both errors, and they may be made in a similar way for a similar reason (expediency, economy.) One may be permissible (i.e. it may be OK to occasionally make the error as long as you make it good) the other is not.

A bad radio install is fixable. That is different from an airbag blow that causes injuries/accidents. However, a DNR error is not undoable, or is organ theft. (I doubt even the most fundamental of religious types would demand a recipient return the organ)

[billvon 3,009]

>A bad radio install is fixable.

Sorta. A bad radio install MAY be fixable by going back in, messing about some more and seeing if you can discover the problem. The customer may not like it, but in general a good tech can put things right.

It is also not "undoable." It's done. The problem can then be rectified, of course.

>However, a DNR error is not undoable, or is organ theft.

It's as doable as fixing that radio. You have to go back in and mess about again, but you can fix it. Guy remains just as dead.

[diablopilot 2]

This is a curious and quite circular argument occurring here.

Heck, I'm a donor, and I still don't want the government having a say in what happens with my remains with out my explicit consent affirming my desire to donate.

The term, as used in this thread earlier, "implied consent" is so slippery in a legal sense, and disturbingly dangerous in a rights violation sense, that it should be hunted down, thrown away, and abandoned permanently.

Edit: And thanks for the offer, I'll bet in that collection of things you have the makings of a jackleg defibrillator!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.