Fuck you American healthcare system

[Butters 0]

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Accepting a taxpayer subsidy is not being hypocritical. Accepting a taxpayer subsidized service but complaining about others who want a service provided by taxpayers IS hypocritical.

How does this relate to complaints about others who want *additional* services provided to them by taxpayers? I have not asked the government to give me anything beyond what it already does, so how is it hypocritical to complain about others who want more and more?

Blues,
Dave

Once you acknowledge that there's a line to be drawn somewhere, it's just a matter of opinion about where it should be drawn.

A well dressed lady walks into a swank hotel lounge and takes a seat at the bar. A nice looking gentleman is seated beside her. The two make small talk over a few drinks and really seem to hit it off. After a while the gentleman turns to the lady and asks “Say, would you spend the night with me in my suite tonight if I give you $500,000?

The lady looks a bit surprised but stops to think for a minute. After pondering the question for a bit she smiles and says she will do that. The gentleman immediately comes back with “How about one hour for $50? The lady jumps up from her seat and slaps the man across the face. “What do you think I am?” she retorts. The gentleman smiles slyly and says “Madam, you established what you are. We are now negotiating the price”.

Yes, we understand and agree that a line has been drawn. Can you move on and discuss where you believe the line should be drawn and why?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[livendive 8]

I have no control over what services my elders decided should be publically supplied. All I can do is vote to restrict scope creep.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kallend 2,026]

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Accepting a taxpayer subsidy is not being hypocritical. Accepting a taxpayer subsidized service but complaining about others who want a service provided by taxpayers IS hypocritical.

How does this relate to complaints about others who want *additional* services provided to them by taxpayers? I have not asked the government to give me anything beyond what it already does, so how is it hypocritical to complain about others who want more and more?

Blues,
Dave

Once you acknowledge that there's a line to be drawn somewhere, it's just a matter of opinion about where it should be drawn.

A well dressed lady walks into a swank hotel lounge and takes a seat at the bar. A nice looking gentleman is seated beside her. The two make small talk over a few drinks and really seem to hit it off. After a while the gentleman turns to the lady and asks “Say, would you spend the night with me in my suite tonight if I give you $500,000?

The lady looks a bit surprised but stops to think for a minute. After pondering the question for a bit she smiles and says she will do that. The gentleman immediately comes back with “How about one hour for $50? The lady jumps up from her seat and slaps the man across the face. “What do you think I am?” she retorts. The gentleman smiles slyly and says “Madam, you established what you are. We are now negotiating the price”.

Yes, we understand and agree that a line has been drawn.

Have we? All I see is people who've accepted one form of government handout claiming that it's not a handout when they got it, but it is a handout if someone less fortunate than themselves gets it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Butters 0]

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Yes, we understand and agree that a line has been drawn.

Have we? All I see is people who've accepted one form of government handout claiming that it's not a handout when they got it, but it is a handout if someone less fortunate than themselves gets it.

That is your interpretation. All I see is people who've accepted one form of government handout claiming that it's a handout when they got it, and it's a handout when someone less fortunate than themselves gets it, and that they don't want another form of government handout for themselves or for someone else.

PS: Can you move on and discuss where you believe the line should be drawn and why?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[kallend 2,026]

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Yes, we understand and agree that a line has been drawn.

Have we? All I see is people who've accepted one form of government handout claiming that it's not a handout when they got it, but it is a handout if someone less fortunate than themselves gets it.

That is your interpretation. All I see is people who've accepted one form of government handout claiming that it's a handout when they got it, and it's a handout when someone less fortunate than themselves gets it, and that they don't want another form of government handout for themselves or for someone else.

PS: Can you move on and discuss where you believe the line should be drawn and why?

I think the current "system" is AFU, due to not being a system in any recognizable sense. That is what ENCOURAGES poor people to go to the ER for non emergency care and, on balance, wastes resources.

I consider our society to have evolved to the point where basic and preventative healthcare should be a guaranteed right, just like basic education is. If you want care above the basic level, pay for it yourself. Same model as education - want bettter than basic, there's a bunch of private schools and colleges waiting to accommodate you.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Butters 0]

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I think the current "system" is AFU, due to not being a system in any recognizable sense. That is what ENCOURAGES poor people to go to the ER for non emergency care and, on balance, wastes resources.

I consider our society to have evolved to the point where basic and preventative healthcare should be a guaranteed right, just like basic education is. If you want care above the basic level, pay for it yourself. Same model as education - want bettter than basic, there's a bunch of private schools and colleges waiting to accommodate you.

What do you consider basic?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I wish I had an easy answer to healthcare on both sides of the border. But I am afraid I am not that smart. Maybe I should have attended private schools instead of the public ones. Maybe I should have smoked less [you know what]. Maybe I should have been born to smarter or at least richer parents.

Anyway I think some people are looking at this the wrong way:

1) One side of the street is calling for everyone to have universal government healthcare.
2) The other side of the street is saying "#### ###" I won't pay for someone else's care.

These two sides will NEVER see eye to eye. But instead of the constant bickering, I have to ask ... is there any way to make healthcare more affordable? Or is everything in life "for profit". The current US Healthcare model wouldn't be so bad if more people could afford it. But it is too expensive for millions of people. I'm not that smart, but maybe a solution lies in looking beyond "healthcare is a for profit" business. The bureaucrats of the private insurance companies and the bureaucrats of government are not all that different. Neither one gives a rats ass about the people who need healthcare.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Richards 0]

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All I see is people who've accepted one form of government handout claiming that it's a handout when they got it, and it's a handout when someone less fortunate than themselves gets it, and that they don't want another form of government handout for themselves or for someone else.

So if they needed the handout then it is a valid handout and they accept others getting it but if they did not need it then it shouldn't happen?

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Butters 0]

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All I see is people who've accepted one form of government handout claiming that it's a handout when they got it, and it's a handout when someone less fortunate than themselves gets it, and that they don't want another form of government handout for themselves or for someone else.

So if they needed the handout then it is a valid handout and they accept others getting it but if they did not need it then it shouldn't happen?

It has nothing to do with need. It has everything to do with where to draw the line and why.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Thanatos340 1]

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I consider our society to have evolved to the point where basic and preventative healthcare should be a guaranteed right

I actually agree with this.. Up until 18 years old or so. Just like education. Then it is time to go out and get a Job if you are physically and/or mentally able. If you are not physically or mentally able then we do have Medicare and medic aide programs that will cover the basics already. The system is Far from perfect and could absolutely use improvement.. But the idea that I should pay for others heathcare when they are perfectly capable of doing it themselves but choose not to doesn’t sit well.

Those that choose not take care of themselves will find very little sympathy from me.

Children and those that are not capable of taking care of themselves are totally different story. I have no problem helping to pay for them.

Another major problem we have is Lawyers. Not just the one that live off malpractice suits (a tiny percentage) but Lawyers in general. We have a shortage of qualified people going into the medical profession. Most of brightest young minds are going into Law instead. Long Hours, Less Pay, Little gratitude.. Why Bother. Just become a lawyer and make more money. Even the ones that WANT go into the medical profession find that they cant because all the programs are over crowded already (especially in Nursing) yet Law Schools are everywhere. It is a very sad situation.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

With all due respect to Lawrocket ...
the first thing we need to do is kill all of the lawyers.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Thanatos340 1]

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the first thing we need to do is kill all of the lawyers.

And then turn MOST of the Law Schools into Medical Schools and Science and Engineering Schools.

We still need a few lawyers. Maybe set a Cap on the total Number allowed to exist and then only allow new ones as the old ones die off.

[Richards 0]

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*** All I see is people who've accepted one form of government handout claiming that it's a handout when they got it, and it's a handout when someone less fortunate than themselves gets it, and that they don't want another form of government handout for themselves or for someone else.

So if they needed the handout then it is a valid handout and they accept others getting it but if they did not need it then it shouldn't happen?

It has nothing to do with need. It has everything to do with where to draw the line and why.

Right, and by your own wording they seem to be drawing the line at whether or not they used it (and thus needed it). Who decides where the line is drawn? Maybe if I am rich and can afford to send my kids to private school I can say that public school is not needed

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[livendive 8]

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These two sides will NEVER see eye to eye. But instead of the constant bickering, I have to ask ... is there any way to make healthcare more affordable? Or is everything in life "for profit". The current US Healthcare model wouldn't be so bad if more people could afford it. But it is too expensive for millions of people. I'm not that smart, but maybe a solution lies in looking beyond "healthcare is a for profit" business. The bureaucrats of the private insurance companies and the bureaucrats of government are not all that different. Neither one gives a rats ass about the people who need healthcare.

I think you've got a good point, but the first thing that comes to mind is this:

Teaching is an admirable profession, and helpful to many people, yet an awful lot of otherwise talented people avoid it because it isn't particularly lucrative.

Healing is an admirable profession, and becoming a doctor is tougher than becoming a teacher (as is working in the industry in many cases), yet many people tough it out, at least in part because there's a nice carrot dangling in front of them.

If you reduce the size of the carrot, don't you think the number and quality of people willing to chase it will decline?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Butters 0]

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Right, and by your own wording they seem to be drawing the line at whether or not they used it (and thus needed it).

Who is they and why do you assume that use implies need and need implies where and why the line is drawn?

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Who decides where the line is drawn? Maybe if I am rich and can afford to send my kids to private school I can say that public school is not needed

If you believe that the only justification needed to not have public education (or other program) is your ability to pay for private education (or other program) ... then this discussion is over.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

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Ah, so were you on the B ark?

well, it can't hurt to have a minor in telephone cleaning

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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What do you consider basic?

Hi Tony - Of course 'basic' is a very subjective term, so I'd clarify that 'critical' needs should be covered while 'frivolous' actions are not except in extreme cases based on a 'needs assessment' where we maintain a clear level of 'fairness'. Of course recognizing that this would be a 'level playing field' in comparison to the position that any system used 'today' is, of course, broke, because it doesn't meet the 'needs' of all.

I think that the care should be given to ensure that goodness is covered, while badness is discouraged.

is that less ambiguous? Perhaps a committee should be formed.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TrophyHusband 0]

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I have to ask ... is there any way to make healthcare more affordable?

i think so and i think you are on the right track. i addressed this exact thing in post #94 of this thread, but its not the path i see any politicians taking, and even here, only lawrocket addressed a part of it. i think your question is exactly what everyone needs to be asking.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I am not working in the healthcare industry so I do not know where all the expeditures go. But it is more than just the salaries to the doctors and nurses. How about the "for profit" insurance companies, "for profit" pharmaceutical industry and "for profit" medical equipment companies.

Now before people go off on me for questioning the "for profit" healthcare industries, just remember that the mess this greed for the almighty dollar as put the USA in. Greed is not always good in the long run and we as skydivers should know by now that there is more to life than the almighty dollar. He who dies with the most toys has happy relatives. But they are still dead.

Okay enough of that socialist talk. Where's the phone number to my financial planner? LOL

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Butters 0]

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I think that the care should be given to ensure that goodness is covered, while badness is discouraged.

Ok, goodness is covered and badness is not covered (I'm assumming that discouraged implies not covered.) but what about neutralness?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

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I think that the care should be given to ensure that goodness is covered, while badness is discouraged.

Ok, goodness is covered and badness is not covered (I'm assumming that discouraged implies not covered.) but what about neutralness?

"discouraged" may or may not be inferred to coverage, that's up to the government to decide on a case basis.

Neutralness must be actively rooted out for the blandness it represents - we should screech at it and screech at it until it fades to a mild cream color and disappears into the background.

(I'm disappointed you aren't going to SVCO with us in March, BTW)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Richards 0]

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Who is they

"They" are the ones you refer to when you said

"All I see is people who've accepted one form of government handout claiming that it's a handout when they got it, and it's a handout when someone less fortunate than themselves gets it, and that they don't want another form of government handout for themselves or for someone else."

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and why do you assume that use implies need and need implies where and why the line is drawn?

It seems implied that they agree with a service if it is one that they used. It implies to some extent that there is need.

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If you believe that the only justification needed to not have public education (or other program) is your ability to pay for private education (or other program) ... then this discussion is over.

[Butters 0]

Ok. The point I was trying to make (to Kallend) was that subsidized education is not the same as subsidized health care and thus someone (Kallend) can not justify subsidizing health care by stating that we subsidize education.

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If you believe that the only justification needed to not have public education (or other program) is your ability to pay for private education (or other program) ... then this discussion is over.

I don't. I was making a point which is that we cannot treat the issue of health care on the basis of whether or not "you" can afford it. It is a debate that can have societal ramifications.

[lawrocket 3]

A well dressed lady walks into a swank hotel lounge and takes a seat at the bar. A nice looking gentleman is seated beside her. The two make small talk over a few drinks and really seem to hit it off. After a while the gentleman turns to the lady and asks “Say, would you spend the night with me in my suite tonight if I give you $500,000?"

The lady looks a bit surprised but stops to think for a minute. After pondering the question for a bit she smiles and says she will do that. After it's done, she submits her bill to him.

He tells her he has no money, and she's being selfish for only making her services available to to rich. He then proceeds to go room to room, making demands of every other person there to be unselfish and help him out. He eventually scrapes up $50.00.

But he then comments that across the border in Mexico, he could get laid for $10.00. That it's unfair that she should even charge him $50.00 when in other places, it people get it cheaper. Then he doesn't pay her at all and complains when she comes after him for the money.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[georgerussia 0]

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I have heard many shocking stories (from Frinds who have experienced them) abouth the healthcare system in the USA.
No govornment is perfect but if you are denied to be seen to when you have a broken arm (a good friend had this experience after a snowboarding incident) due to insurance complicatons then there is something wrong with that govornment.

It's basically the same as "basic healthcare should be available to anyone" statement.
And the only problem is, how to define basic healthcare?
So far nobody could do it. People just provide examples what should _not_ be covered. Most if not all of those examples are not covered under any reasonable health insurance plan either.
Maybe you could do it - could you list things which are currently covered by health insurance but should not be covered by so-called "basic healthcare"? You already said broken arm should. Broken neck? Bypass? Spine damage and following three weeks in intensive care unit? Brain surgery? Then what shouldn't?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *