Why Pilots Should Not be Allowed Firearms on Planes

[Gawain 0]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/25/national/main3965159.shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._3965159

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The "accidental discharge" Saturday aboard Flight 1536 from Denver, Colorado, to Charlotte, North Carolina, did not endanger the aircraft or the 124 passengers

First of all, it was not an "accidental discharge", it was a negligent discharge. I am not aware of a single firearm that can be fired if it handled properly and maintained with the safety on.

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"We know that there was never any danger to the aircraft or to the occupants on board," Alter said Monday.

This is a line of crap. A firearm discharged in close quarters is a danger, at a minimum to the men in the cockpit. The concussion may disorient, and hearing loss is possible as well.

One week's training is not enough, and these pilots are not trained in CQC situations. Having a gun on the plane means having the potential to have the firearm fall in the wrong hands.

Air Marshals are the component to pour resources into, not privately employed pilots.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Rookie120 0]

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Air Marshals are the component to pour resources into, not privately employed pilots.

So you believe that since this dousche pulled it out and was dinkin with it in flight and had a AD they all should be banned? I think it is a major overkill. A lot of pilots have flown with there firearms everyday with no problems. They are supposed to be locked up unless there is a problem. Like a guy trying to break the door down. The way the new doors are built and for how long it would take someone to break in would be plenty of time for the pilot to retrieve his gun from the box. This guy was an ass and it should not be seen as an example of how the program works.

I would have loved to seen the write-up in the A/C logbook though. "Bullet hole in floor"

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kallend 2,027]

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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/25/national/main3965159.shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._3965159

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The "accidental discharge" Saturday aboard Flight 1536 from Denver, Colorado, to Charlotte, North Carolina, did not endanger the aircraft or the 124 passengers

First of all, it was not an "accidental discharge", it was a negligent discharge. I am not aware of a single firearm that can be fired if it handled properly and maintained with the safety on.

.

"Negligent Discharge", a PERFECT example of Newspeak ((C) George Orwell, 1948) promulgated by the gun lobby in a silly attempt to claim that guns don't kill people.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[piper17 1]

What, pray tell, is the difference? The term in the firearms community is "accidental discharge"...as opposed to a purposeful firing of the weapon.

Before anyone should be drawing any conclusions from this CBS News report, we should find out all the facts. Does "Duke Lacrosse Team" ring a bell. Just as any resemblance to reality being strictly coincidental in news reports about skydiving incidents, that is usually the case in incidents regarding firearms as well.

What was the brand of hand gun? Glock? Sig? Was the pilot handling it at the time? If so, why? It might be nice to know the facts before drawing conclusions.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[DanG 1]

In the military community "negligent discharge" means you screwed up and the weapon fired because of negligence. "Accidental discharge" implies that shit just happens, and yes, sometimes it does. I've seen (heard) rounds cook off from getting too hot sitting in the sun. That is an accident. Someone handling their weapon when they have no business handling it is negligence.

- Dan G

[AWL71 0]

Air Marshalls are a great idea but there is not enough funding to put them on a signifigant number of flights. Pilots having weapons is a great idea. They should be trained of course. All piltos should not be punished because some bonehead was playing with his pistol in the cockpit. That is like saying we should ban alcohol since some people drive drunk.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[shropshire 0]

What sort of hand gun (revolver .vs. the other ones) was it? How did a round get chambered..... accidentaly?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Zarkon 0]

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Air Marshals are the component to pour resources into, not privately employed pilots.

I agree, and I was very shocked to hear after this that Marshals are only on ~1% of flights

[piper17 1]

A round cooking off because the the weapon was sitting in the sun. That is a load of BS, IMO.

At Ft. Benning, during nightfire training with the M-60 machine gun, we saw that the barrel/chamber would get red - then white - hot and the machine gun would keep firing of its own accord. A weapon sitting in the sun is just NOT going to get hot enough to do it.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[JohnnyD 0]

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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/25/national/main3965159.shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._3965159

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The "accidental discharge" Saturday aboard Flight 1536 from Denver, Colorado, to Charlotte, North Carolina, did not endanger the aircraft or the 124 passengers

First of all, it was not an "accidental discharge", it was a negligent discharge. I am not aware of a single firearm that can be fired if it handled properly and maintained with the safety on.

Quote

"We know that there was never any danger to the aircraft or to the occupants on board," Alter said Monday.

This is a line of crap. A firearm discharged in close quarters is a danger, at a minimum to the men in the cockpit. The concussion may disorient, and hearing loss is possible as well.

One week's training is not enough, and these pilots are not trained in CQC situations. Having a gun on the plane means having the potential to have the firearm fall in the wrong hands.

Air Marshals are the component to pour resources into, not privately employed pilots.

I agree 100%. I haven't heard of any lawsuits yet, but I'm sure they'll be coming.

[mnealtx 0]

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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/25/national/main3965159.shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._3965159

Quote

The "accidental discharge" Saturday aboard Flight 1536 from Denver, Colorado, to Charlotte, North Carolina, did not endanger the aircraft or the 124 passengers

First of all, it was not an "accidental discharge", it was a negligent discharge. I am not aware of a single firearm that can be fired if it handled properly and maintained with the safety on.

.

"Negligent Discharge", a PERFECT example of Newspeak ((C) George Orwell, 1948) promulgated by the gun lobby in a silly attempt to claim that guns don't kill people.

As opposed to he newspeak that "guns kill people", perhaps? I guess mine (and millions of others) must be malfunctioning, because they haven't jump out of the safe and shot up the neighborhood all on their own, yet.

To summarize: Your attempt to derail Gawain's post is infantile.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[DanG 1]

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A round cooking off because the the weapon was sitting in the sun. That is a load of BS, IMO.

Well, guess I just imagined it.

Ft. Benning, August, M-60 on a tripod, no one near it. How else do you explain it?

Either way, that has nothing to do with a pilot firing his weapon in a cockpit.

- Dan G

[billvon 2,991]

>I guess mine (and millions of others) must be malfunctioning,
>because they haven't jump out of the safe and shot up the neighborhood
>all on their own, yet.

Nope. But if someday you accidentally fire an extra round at the range, it will be an accident, and not a crime of negligence.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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A round cooking off because the the weapon was sitting in the sun. That is a load of BS, IMO.

Well, guess I just imagined it.

Ft. Benning, August, M-60 on a tripod, no one near it. How else do you explain it?

Either way, that has nothing to do with a pilot firing his weapon in a cockpit.

- Dan G

What?

Rethink that one ok?

[warpedskydiver 0]

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A round cooking off because the the weapon was sitting in the sun. That is a load of BS, IMO.

At Ft. Benning, during nightfire training with the M-60 machine gun, we saw that the barrel/chamber would get red - then white - hot and the machine gun would keep firing of its own accord. A weapon sitting in the sun is just NOT going to get hot enough to do it.

That is why you do bbl changes, and cyclic rate is not to be confused with sustained rate of fire.

YMMV, but I carried the pig.

[piper17 1]

It was just part of the demonstration of cook-offs in the M-60....part of the program and impressive looking at night watching the barrel go to red then white. The class was, as I recall, was in regard to utilization of the T&E mechanism, fields of fire, and some other terms that I can no longer remember.

Bbl changes...that's why they gave out insulated, asbestos gloves, too. And...the bitch and its ammo (blanks) got heavy after a few hours of trudging around the GA woods...just like the prc-25!

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[mr2mk1g 10]

Depending on how anal you want to get, chambering a round on the range and walking away from the weapon could be covered by "negligent handling" of the weapon.

Can you even get a military M60 to fire from a closed bolt? Did anyone check if the primer had a mark from the firing pin (sear failure)? Had the weapon been fired recently (bog standard cook-off)?

I'd be surprised if it were simply heat from the sun which caused the round to cook off... but I wasn't there.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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It was just part of the demonstration of cook-offs in the M-60....part of the program and impressive looking at night watching the barrel go to red then white. The class was, as I recall, was in regard to utilization of the T&E mechanism, fields of fire, and some other terms that I can no longer remember.

Bbl changes...that's why they gave out insulated, asbestos gloves, too. And...the bitch and its ammo (blanks) got heavy after a few hours of trudging around the GA woods...just like the prc-25!

Or the PRC-46

The pig was really bad in Germany, the slopes of the vineyards on the Rhein, coupled with spring rains and that dresden clay, was ummm slippery.

[piper17 1]

The nice thing about being Armor branch after finishing Infantry OCS...I got to ride around in M-151s, M-48s, M-113s, M-88s etc...no more dirt pounding humping heavy loads. ;>)

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[mnealtx 0]

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>I guess mine (and millions of others) must be malfunctioning,
>because they haven't jump out of the safe and shot up the neighborhood
>all on their own, yet.

Nope. But if someday you accidentally fire an extra round at the range, it will be an accident, and not a crime of negligence.

*sigh*

Firing a shot when you didn't mean to CAN be considered accidental, but is more properly considered negligent.

Rule 1: All weapons are loaded.
Rule 2: Never point the weapon at anything you are not willing to destroy.
Rule 3: Finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
Rule 4: Be sure of your target and what is behind it.

The pilot broke all 4 cardinal rules of safe gunhandling - that is NEGLIGENCE, not accidental.

Using your range example:

Weapon "doubling" due to wear or maladjustment - accidental discharge, but also negligent because I didn't make sure my weapon was in proper operating order.

Putting a bullet into the ground 5 feet in front of the safety line because I had my finger on the trigger - straight negligence.

Hopefully, this helps clear it up for the non-trained (no offense meant) in regards to safety and how trained people look at the situation.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[piper17 1]

Perhaps I missed the follow-up article about this incident but I have yet to see any mention of the circumstances regarding the AD...or ND. Where was it reported that the pilot was handling the weapon at the time?

The article I read mentioned that the aircraft was at 8,000 ft and manuevering for the approach. If that is true, why would the pilot (FO, I guess) be playing with the H&K at that point in time? I thought the handgun was supposed to be cased etc.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[DanG 1]

Rethink what?

In response to some other post: we weren't on a range. I neglected to mention that the round was a blank, not live. It was a MILES training exercise.

I don't remember whether there was a firing pin indent or not, this happened in 1993. My humping days are long over.

Either way, I don't see how a round could be fired from an HK pistol in an air conditioned cockpit if the weapon were properly stowed with the safety on.

Really.

- Dan G

[lawrocket 3]

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"Negligent Discharge", a PERFECT example of Newspeak ((C) George Orwell, 1948) promulgated by the gun lobby in a silly attempt to claim that guns don't kill people.

It can be spun in many different ways. "Accident" and "Negligence" are very similar. But whereas "negligence" is characterized by laxity on the part of the actor that causes the result, "accident" is characterized by chance or fluke. Or unintended consequence (a closer link to "negligence.")

My problem is that it was no accident that the gun discharged. The CONSEQUENCE was accidental. Kind of like an accidental broadsiding of a person while streetracing. No, you didn't intend to broadside anybody. That was an accident. But this isn't negligence, either. I'd say this guy is reckless with his weapon.

Negligence? The failure to use due care to avoid a foreseeable risk? This is not an "accident."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Nightingale 0]

I don't have a problem with pilots having guns on planes if they've gone through the required classes and qualifications for a CCW. The key to being competent with a weapon is training. Training to keep your finger off the trigger, training to keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction, etc...

[labrys 0]

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Training to keep your finger off the trigger, training to keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction, etc...

What would be a "safe direction" to point a weapon in the cockpit of an airliner?

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