John McCain - 10 things to know about him

[billvon 3,008]

>Why, if giving crappy mortgages to optimistic consumers was a bad
>idea 25 years ago, was it a good idea 3-5 years ago?

Because, back then, it was an entirely new paradigm - buy a house, sell it a few years later, make hundreds of thousands of dollars! The only mistake you could make was to NOT get in the free money market! Get yours while they last; don't get left out in the cold while your friends all buy mansions and you're stuck in that shack!

[georgerussia 0]

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I can sympathize with the poor shmucks who drank the "real estate always goes up", "they're not making any more land" or the "it's different here" pablum from the NAR and other self-interested groups. I just don't want them--and especially the speculators, bankers, hedge funds et al--bailed out.

This is my position as well. I understand what motivated the buyers and the lenders - but they are adults, and they made their own investment decisions. Which ended up being poor decisions. I don't laugh at them, and sometime I feel sympathy for them, but I do not want to help them. They need to suck up their losses and move on, without burdening those who acted more prudently.

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FYI, here's a real estate tip, for y'all. If you buy a property whose PITI (principal, interest, taxes and insurance) amount to MORE than available rents for that same property--RUN, do not walk away.

It does not work for most San Francisco Bay Area. If you rent the property for $X/month, when you buy it, it seems to cost you at least 2*$X /month. However you'll get a deduction for those money, and being able to deduct at least 60K/year from your income, it sometime makes it "close" to rent.

I wonder if it works for Manhattan either.

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The market has NOT bottomed out. The market will not rebound anytime soon. You are a potential knife-catcher with a soon-to-be savings-destroying alligator on your hands. Bad investment.

The market is very irregular now. There are areas where the single home prices did not drop at all - like Cupertino, parts of Sunnyvale or some West San Jose areas in CA. However other areas of Sunnyvale and San Jose dropped dramatically - sometime more than 20%. I agree it's not a good time for investment, but it's not bad time to buy a place to live - you still need to live somewhere, and the rent is going up like crazy.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mamajumps 0]

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Good info from Moveon.org. I look forward to the righties interpretation of this info. The sources for the statements are provided. Read them for yourself and see what you think. Let us not forget that McCain is also highly biased AGAINST general aviation. Do you want your DZ to close or your jump tickets price to skyrocket?

10 things you should know about John McCain (but probably don't):

1. John McCain voted against establishing a national holiday in honor of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Now he says his position has "evolved," yet he's continued to oppose key civil rights laws.1

2. According to Bloomberg News, McCain is more hawkish than Bush on Iraq, Russia and China. Conservative columnist Pat Buchanan says McCain "will make Cheney look like Gandhi."2

3. His reputation is built on his opposition to torture, but McCain voted against a bill to ban waterboarding, and then applauded President Bush for vetoing that ban.3

4. McCain opposes a woman's right to choose. He said, "I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned."4

5. The Children's Defense Fund rated McCain as the worst senator in Congress for children. He voted against the children's health care bill last year, then defended Bush's veto of the bill.5

6. He's one of the richest people in a Senate filled with millionaires. The Associated Press reports he and his wife own at least eight homes! Yet McCain says the solution to the housing crisis is for people facing foreclosure to get a "second job" and skip their vacations.6

7. Many of McCain's fellow Republican senators say he's too reckless to be commander in chief. One Republican senator said: "The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine. He's erratic. He's hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me."7

8. McCain talks a lot about taking on special interests, but his campaign manager and top advisers are actually lobbyists. The government watchdog group Public Citizen says McCain has 59 lobbyists raising money for his campaign, more than any of the other presidential candidates.8

9. McCain has sought closer ties to the extreme religious right in recent years. The pastor McCain calls his "spiritual guide," Rod Parsley, believes America's founding mission is to destroy Islam, which he calls a "false religion." McCain sought the political support of right-wing preacher John Hagee, who believes Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment for gay rights and called the Catholic Church "the Antichrist" and a "false cult."9

10. He positions himself as pro-environment, but he scored a 0—yes, zero—from the League of Conservation Voters last year.10

Sources:
1. "The Complicated History of John McCain and MLK Day," ABC News, April 3, 2008
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/the-complicated.html
"McCain Facts," ColorOfChange.org, April 4, 2008
http://colorofchange.org/mccain_facts/
2. "McCain More Hawkish Than Bush on Russia, China, Iraq," Bloomberg News, March 12, 2008
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aF28rSCtk0ZM&refer=us
"Buchanan: John McCain 'Will Make Cheney Look Like Gandhi,'" ThinkProgress, February 6, 2008
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/06/buchanan-gandhi-mccain/
3. "McCain Sides With Bush On Torture Again, Supports Veto Of Anti-Waterboarding Bill," ThinkProgress, February 20, 2008
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/20/mccain-torture-veto/

4. "McCain says Roe v. Wade should be overturned," MSNBC, February 18, 2007
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17222147/
5. "2007 Children's Defense Fund Action Council® Nonpartisan Congressional Scorecard," February 2008
http://www.childrensdefense.org/site/PageServer?pagename=act_learn_scorecard2007
"McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion," CNN, October 3, 2007
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/mccain.interview/
6. "Beer Executive Could Be Next First Lady," Associated Press, April 3, 2008
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h-S1sWHm0tchtdMP5LcLywg5ZtMgD8VQ86M80
"McCain Says Bank Bailout Should End `Systemic Risk,'" Bloomberg News, March 25, 2008
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHMiDVYaXZFM&refer=home
7. "Will McCain's Temper Be a Liability?," Associated Press, February 16, 2008
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=4301022
"Famed McCain temper is tamed," Boston Globe, January 27, 2008
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/27/famed_mccain_temper_is_tamed/
8. "Black Claims McCain's Campaign Is Above Lobbyist Influence: 'I Don't Know What The Criticism Is,'" ThinkProgress, April 2, 2008
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/02/mccain-black-lobbyist/
"McCain's Lobbyist Friends Rally 'Round Their Man," ABC News, January 29, 2008
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4210251
9. "McCain's Spiritual Guide: Destroy Islam," Mother Jones Magazine, March 12, 2008
http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/03/john-mccain-rod-parsley-spiritual-guide.html
"Will McCain Specifically 'Repudiate' Hagee's Anti-Gay Comments?," ThinkProgress, March 12, 2008
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/03/12/mccain-hagee-anti-gay/
"McCain 'Very Honored' By Support Of Pastor Preaching 'End-Time Confrontation With Iran,'" ThinkProgress, February 28, 2008
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/28/hagee-mccain-endorsement/

10. "John McCain Gets a Zero Rating for His Environmental Record," Sierra Club, February 28, 2008
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/environment/77913/

Yep, Im still gonna vote for him...

[idrankwhat 0]

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This is my position as well. I understand what motivated the buyers and the lenders - but they are adults, and they made their own investment decisions. Which ended up being poor decisions. I don't laugh at them, and sometime I feel sympathy for them, but I do not want to help them. They need to suck up their losses and move on, without burdening those who acted more prudently.

Just to continue our discussion from the previous thread, it was/is a big mess. You had people who knew what they were doing when they made bad decisions but you also had many people who were clueless that were preyed upon. Some wanted to access their equity at any price and others were talked/tricked into deals, sometimes fraudulently, just to get those huge commissions. Greed was hitting everyone pretty hard. Yesterday on NPR they had an interesting story that touched on this. It's worth the listen/read.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89505982

[funjumper101 15]

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One of the best quotes ever -
"A working person voting Republcan is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders."

So, what's a "working person?" I'm interested in your definition.

The statement is an adaptaion of the immortal words of the father of former Senator J.C. Watts' (Still the one and only black republican senator in history, who resigned in disgust after being taken as the help at too many GOP events), "A black person voting for a Republican is like a chicken voting for Col. Sanders." I didn't come up with the statement myself. IIRC, the statement came out during the 2000 elections.

As far as defining what a "working person" is, DAGS. There is a company that has a target market that is an OK definition of the term.
If you can't understand the concept in context of the statement, no amount of explanation will make a difference.

[funjumper101 15]

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"Moveon.org"
Hard to get past that leader

1. national holiday - I could care less about weak gestures one way or the other, the fact that our reps and sens waste time on these bills either way is more disturbing to me. yes or no vote

2. hawkish than Bush on Iraq, Russia and China - meh, let's get out and stop wasting money. score one against him if he can't figure out how to do that effectively right away and still maintain our safety

3. His reputation is built on his opposition to torture - waterboarding... we've come a long way in what 'torture' means over the last few decades. no opinion either way on this one

4. woman's right to choose - I can't tell if he 'opposes it' from the description or just considers it a state's rights issue vs a national. I think it's not the fed's biz, but the state's so I can't cast an opinion

5. He voted against the children's health care bill - could care less, these are usually 'titled' something like that but have so much other crap in it that they all deserve to be shot down, take it to the generic 'free' health care threads

6. He's one of the richest people in a Senate filled with millionaires - I don't begrudge someone else's stuff. moot point on way or the other

7. Many of McCain's fellow Republican senators say he's too reckless - I can't trust what Republican politicians say. nothing to do with this one

8. McCain has 59 lobbyists raising money for his campaign, - just like everyone else. But this actually is a problem for me. like to see someone step up and go against the grain

9. McCain has sought closer ties to the extreme religious right in recent years - meh, anti religious types think someone that says grace at meals is an 'extreme' nutjob that should be ridiculed. This is a clear comparison to Obama's situation to say "See? they aren't any different"

10. He positions himself as pro-environment - whatever the hell that means. I hope he doesn't promote the vast series of useless enviro-actions that cause more pollution and just takes money and jobs from the citizens of the US.




I'm mostly with Quade on this one. He's in most likely, but Obama could make the race interesting if Hillary doesn't steal the DFL's nomination through "Bush-like" techniques and cronyisms.

1. MLK day deserves far more respect that it receives, IMO. Voting against making it a holiday speaks volumes about the values of the individual, IMO.

2. When a far right wing writer like Pat Buchanan thinks that McCain is too hawkish, that should be very meaningful to you, right or left. McCain is scary dangerous, and his own party knows it. The man is prone to temper tantrums. He should NEVER have access to the "football". He has shown himself to be clueless about the facts of the Iraq occupation. That is a clear demonstration that he is in no way qualified to be CIC.

3. Waterboarding - It is sad to see the new paradigm of "situational ethics" taking the place of moral absolutes when judging the behavior of our government. Are you familiar with the results of the war crimes trials after WWII? The condensed version is that Japanese soldiers and officers were convicted of torture for waterboarding US soldiers. One of shrub's lackeys was even quoted as saying that if was done to him, it would be torture. It used to be that the USA held itself to a higher standard than the rest of the world. Now we are down in the gutter with the Mugabes of the world. And many righties are very proud of that. They feel no shame at all. It is pretty creepy to those of us that understand the concepts of "right and wrong".

4. The rescums are all about "states rights" when it comes to Roe v Wade.
When it comes to issues like Oregon's assisted suicide laws and the many states that have voted for medical marijuana, they aren't so keen on "states rights". Websters dictionary should use this as an example in the definition for the word "hypocrisy".

5. The rescums successfully prevented the creation of a national health care program during the Clinton adminstration. The US Health care system is a disaster when measured against the rest of the developed world. The bill McCain voted against was a tiny measure towards helping resolve the problem. I don't see any rescum action towards resolving the issue.

6. He got the money via one of the old fashioned ways - he married into it. He did a great job of leveraging the money and connections into a political career. He isn't very intelligent and is fairly lazy, along with being an arrogant prick. He wants to be president, but doesn't know the players in Iraq. He has stated that domestic economics is another weak part of his "expertise". The two biggest issues and he doesn't have a clue. Brilliant! Don't forget the details regarding the divorce and re-marriage. Look it up for yourself. A classic example of "Republican Family Values".
The arrogance to assume that people facing foreclosure are taking vacations and are't already working second jobs is pretty impressive. What an asshole! How would he know? Those aren't the people he rolls with.

7. Funny how when a rescum says something about Obama or Clinton, credibilty is assumed. When they commend shrub for the "leadership" he supposedly has shown, credibility is assumed. When they say something about McCain, they can't be trusted.

8. The lobbyist crap is way out of control on both sides. This is an issues as McCain presents himself as one thing, but is really another. Hypocrite is the word used to describe such an individual.

9. In other words, the old white guy should be held to a lesser standard than the young mixed race guy? That sounds about right for the way things are nowadays. Situational ethics. The new modern way.

10. When fact overrides fiction, it is a fine thing. The rescums have done a fine job of gutting the EPA, and hiding on the truth about the results of their policies. They have stopped independent efforts to make changes. California has been the leader in cleaning up air pollution since the sixties. The recent actions by shrubco to prevent California from leading the way on this issue is disgusting. If that sentiment had prevailed for the past 40 years, we would still be driving cars that would be considered gross polluters by todays standards.

[lawrocket 3]

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The statement is an adaptaion of the immortal words of the father of former Senator J.C. Watts' (Still the one and only black republican senator in history, who resigned in disgust after being taken as the help at too many GOP events),

JC Watts was never a Senator. He was a Repesentative who served out four terms (despite a promise of only two terms) and became the head GOPAC.

Here's a quote from JC Watts:
"They said that I had sold out and Uncle Tom. And I said well, they deserve to have that view. But I have my thoughts. And I think they're race-hustling poverty pimps."

Interestingly, you wrote this:
"If you can't understand the concept in context of the statement, no amount of explanation will make a difference. "

JC Watts has a similar view: "If you are explaining, you are losing."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[skydyvr 0]

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rescum rescum rescum rescum rescum

Your credibility = zero

. . =(_8^(1)

[funjumper101 15]

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The statement is an adaptaion of the immortal words of the father of former Senator J.C. Watts' (Still the one and only black republican senator in history, who resigned in disgust after being taken as the help at too many GOP events),

JC Watts was never a Senator. He was a Repesentative who served out four terms (despite a promise of only two terms) and became the head GOPAC.

Here's a quote from JC Watts:
"They said that I had sold out and Uncle Tom. And I said well, they deserve to have that view. But I have my thoughts. And I think they're race-hustling poverty pimps."

Interestingly, you wrote this:
"If you can't understand the concept in context of the statement, no amount of explanation will make a difference. "

JC Watts has a similar view: "If you are explaining, you are losing."

I am sure there are lots of good quotes from JC Watts himself.

I pulled the info regarding the origins of the statement from a Google search. The title of the SON of the man who made the original statement was listed incorrectly. Does that diminish the value of the original quote? Not the way I see it.

Can you make an argument, based on facts, that the state of the middle class has improved under the Republican administrations since 1980?

[funjumper101 15]

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rescum rescum rescum rescum rescum

Your credibility = zero

In my lifetime the Republican party went from a respectable organization to a scummy cesspool. I used to stuff envelopes for the John Birch Society. The actions of the party since Nixon got elected, especially the Reagan years, drove me forever and completely away from supporting it.

IF the Republican Party was to return to what used to be core values, IE, fiscal responsibility, smaller goverment, etc. I might go back.
Republicans used to believe strongly in the Constitution. Given the actions of shrubco and the complete lack of oversight by rescum congress, that clearly is not the case anymore. They have no shame.

If calling them as I see them makes me less credible in your eyes, BFD.
Your opinion means way less than nothing to me. Sorry to burst your bubble of self importance.

[lawrocket 3]

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Can you make an argument, based on facts, that the state of the middle class has improved under the Republican administrations since 1980?

Sure I can. Of course, "argument" and "fact" are, well, what I do.

In order to start the argument and fact, we must first define "middle class." For starters, why don't I say, "Persons or families with a yearly income (2007 dollars) of between $40k and $100k."

Or do you propose another definition? See, this is where it gets tricky, eh?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[skydyvr 0]

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Your opinion means way less than nothing to me. Sorry to burst your bubble of self importance.

You're making silly assumptions about what/how I think about myself or anything else. Perhaps you've got the exact bubble you described.

In any case, most people would agree that people with credibility communcate in civil terms. You ain't one of those.

. . =(_8^(1)

[funjumper101 15]

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Can you make an argument, based on facts, that the state of the middle class has improved under the Republican administrations since 1980?

Sure I can. Of course, "argument" and "fact" are, well, what I do.

In order to start the argument and fact, we must first define "middle class." For starters, why don't I say, "Persons or families with a yearly income (2007 dollars) of between $40k and $100k."

Or do you propose another definition? See, this is where it gets tricky, eh?

You are professionally trained to be able to make an argument from either side. I am sure that you could effectively twist the facts to support the position that the middle class is better off. That's what lawyers do. No offense to you and your profession intended. Lawyers are a key component of the system. No one likes them until they need one.

We both are in California. Those number apply here, but are too high for the whole country. Try 25k to 75k. That is more in line with the country.

Given enough time, I am sure that I could argue the facts for weeks or months. I don't have that much spare time available. I'll do what I can with the time I have available. Another thread would be appropriate for that discussion, if you really want to.

Take a look at the recent commentary from David Leonhardt from the NYT. That will be a good start for research as to what has happened under shrubco.

Have you ever read the book "Pefectly Legal"? David Cay Johnston wrote it. It is about the tax code, not the legal profession. A good read that is directly related to the issue.

[lawrocket 3]

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Try 25k to 75k

Okay. I'll go with this. That might not be middle class in LA or SF - or any city on the Cali Coast, for that matter, but it's a good start.

Now, that level, in 2007 dollars, is just above "poverty" for a family of 5. So, we'll take that number and go with it.

Now, for a single person in Cali to be at the poverty level, we'd have $10,210.00 for a year's income. A minimum wage job in Cali paid 7.50 per hour. A person working a minimum wage job for 30 hours a week would make 10,800 per year. Full time work at minimum wage would be 14,028.00 per year.

This menas that under your definition, two people working minimum wage jobs for less than 40 hours per week will be considered "middle class."

It's almost too easy - that $25k per year number. In 1980 dolalrs, that's a little under $9,000.00, based on retail price inflation. http://www.halfhill.com/inflation.html

That's my start point. I'll move forward with more later...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[TankBuster 0]

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As far as defining what a "working person" is, DAGS. There is a company that has a target market that is an OK definition of the term.
If you can't understand the concept in context of the statement, no amount of explanation will make a difference.

I understand the context, and I understand the concept. Your explanation is what I wanted, and didn't get. The left uses "working person" instead of "poor person" or "disadvantaged person" because it furthers the dependency cause. That type of language is very effective in making it seem that poor people are all hard workers, and that those with means got an easy break or inherited it, but definitely didn't work hard to get it. Another favored term is "filthy rich." I consider Bill Gates a working man, a rich man, and a great American.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[funjumper101 15]

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Your opinion means way less than nothing to me. Sorry to burst your bubble of self importance.

You're making silly assumptions about what/how I think about myself or anything else. Perhaps you've got the exact bubble you described.

In any case, most people would agree that people with credibility communcate in civil terms. You ain't one of those.

I am supposed to show civility and respect for an organization that has systematically trashed the Constitution and my beloved country's international reputation and credibility? I don't think so. Disrespect of this magnitude has been well earned.

I have a lot of sympathy for the peple who identify as Republican, but allowed the current pack of scoundrels to take over the party. It used to be that the Republican Party was worthy of respect. They actually backed up their rhetoric with their actions. That hasn't been the case for a long time.
When Reagan gave the speech about my heart tells me one thing, but the facts say another, that was it for me. He should have fired all of them and made sure that they were prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Instead, the Justice dept did as little as they could get away with. Then shrub1 pardoned all of the criminals, many before they even went on trial.
The complete and utter lack of respect for the law and the US Constitution the rescums have shown for the past 30 plus years means I'll call them rescums.

Take back your party and start supporting the Constitution and the rule of law. What is going on now with the torture issue, the illegal wiretapping, the lies that got us into the Iraq occupation, etc, etc should cause the party faithfulto rise up in revolt and throw the bums out.

This country has never been so divided against itself since the late 30s when the peace movement kept the US out of WWII until Pearl Harbor. I have done a lot of reading about those times. My father lived through them. He says it is way worse now than it has ever been.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Can you make an argument, based on facts, that the state of the middle class has improved under the Republican administrations since 1980?

Sure I can. Of course, "argument" and "fact" are, well, what I do.

In order to start the argument and fact, we must first define "middle class." For starters, why don't I say, "Persons or families with a yearly income (2007 dollars) of between $40k and $100k."

Or do you propose another definition? See, this is where it gets tricky, eh?

The argument he alluded to is that the median (mean?) wages adjusted for inflation have declined in the past few decades. Taking that tact eliminates the need to define middle class - can just divide income group into deciles or 20% brackets and see how it has gone.

[TankBuster 0]

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What is going on now with the torture issue,

You people just kill me with this stuff. The CIA has been waterboarding people - and doing other things you don't even want to know about - for years. Doesn't make it right, but GW didn't invent it.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[kelpdiver 2]

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What is going on now with the torture issue,

You people just kill me with this stuff. The CIA has been waterboarding people - and doing other things you don't even want to know about - for years. Doesn't make it right, but GW didn't invent it.

The difference being he is trying to make it stated policy of the US. You don't see the distinction?

[funjumper101 15]

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What is going on now with the torture issue,

You people just kill me with this stuff. The CIA has been waterboarding people - and doing other things you don't even want to know about - for years. Doesn't make it right, but GW didn't invent it.

You don't see any difference between an official US policy promoting torture and the stuff the CIA does covertly

That's pretty twisted.

I am well aware that the CIA has and will do horrible things on our behalf. If the agents get caught doing things that are illegal, I expect them to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. You break the law, you pay the price, if you get caught.

Making torture part of US government policy is completely WRONG. It always was, and always will be. And we, the people, allowed it to happen. Contrary to what many people think, the Geneva Convention is NOT toilet paper.

I sincerely hope that shrub and his lackeys will be held accountable for their actions during my lifetime. Given the lack of ethics I see in so many of the younger people I deal with nowadays, it likely won't happen.

[lawrocket 3]

Okay. Median wages have declined in adjusted dollars. I can see that.

Has there been a similar decline in what those wages can get for you?

This is irking my interest...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jakee 1,500]

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This is irking my interest...

Your interest is getting annoyed? Is it possible for an emotion to have an emotion?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[lawrocket 3]

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This is irking my interest...

Your interest is getting annoyed? Is it possible for an emotion to have an emotion?

Sorry. As you can see it was a short comment and not well thought out. It's why I hate stream of consciousness writing. When you are ADHD...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Okay. Median wages have declined in adjusted dollars. I can see that.

Has there been a similar decline in what those wages can get for you?

This is irking my interest...

piquing might have been a better word.

By definition, dollars are adjusted by the purchasing power, so yes, there would be a similar decline. The caveat of course is the accuracy of the adjustment. Walmart is not considered in the price indices, but certainly has had a negative (in the good way) affect on the inflation rate.

Looking at the bigger picture over the past 50 years - in the 50s and 60s it was normal for the nuclear family to have the at home housewife. Then women asserted their own rights to have a career and now we're at a point where most families can't survive without both parents working. That's certainly a decline in the standards of living for the middle class.

[TankBuster 0]

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The difference being he is trying to make it stated policy of the US. You don't see the distinction?

Thats bullshit. When Mukasey was going through confirmation hearings, the Democrats were focusing on waterboarding. Now they are working on a bill to ban it. They are trying to force the President's hand on it. How does that amount to pushing it as stated national policy?

Can I get you to condemn WJC because he did nothing about it on his watch?

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.